[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion

[EggBlue]

37 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I think the incest is much more problematic than the polygamy to be honest. Jaehaerys' decision-making there confuses me.

what's so confusing ? he wanted to marry his sister . that's all . 

personally , I think polygamy is worse . unless , incest is between parent-child or creepy older uncle/aunt-niece/nephew .

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Stenkarazine said:

Inevitably. There always will be seditious lords, malcontents, plotters and would-be rebels, even if Rhaenyra makes a decent job of ruling. 

There is an argument going like this: "well, yes, malcontent lords could gather around Aegon's claim, but he can just say no".

Except it doesn't work like that. Even if Aegon remains steadfastly loyal, he will not cease to be a potential rallying point for all and sundry, whether he wants it or not.

Do we really think that dear uncle Daemon would not have thought about that? He would probably have had his nephews gelded and thrown into a black cell at the first whiff of rebellion in the Realm. 

That didn't really happen back when Maegor usurped the throne, no? And a loyal dragonrider cannot really be forced to turn against his monarch. You cannot abduct him or try to stage a rebellion in his name when he could use his dragon to destroy your castle.

The idea that this kind of thing is a given in other times also kind of undermined by the simple fact that Dorne came around to accepting equal primogeniture. Nymeria had daughters and sons both, yet nobody supplanted her eldest daughter with her son.

Or think about how easily the hedge knights dismiss both the claims of Prince Rhaegel and his children. They think the throne will go to the ones they deem powerful, i.e. Maekar or Bloodraven.

Aemond and Vhagar may have had a decent shot to convince lords to rise in his name against Rhaenyra ... but the Aegon as presented in the show is a wastrel and a loser. Very few people would want him to be their king if nobody powerful (i.e. the Hand and the dowager queen) were propping him up.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Lord Varys

For me, main characters are the POVs. Considering a Targaryen history book is the only place we're likely to get in-depth information on previous generations of Kingsguard, I have to somewhat disagree. The fact that the Greens lose 800 to the Blacks 100 and Aegon + Sunfyre are taken out of the war for over a year makes Rook's Rest less than decisive in my opinion. Similarly, the fact that both Green commanders are taken out at First Tumbleton, causing the army to degenerate into lawlessness, makes it less than decisive in my opinion. Anyway, I think we should drop the subject since we both seem to agree the military aspect of the Dance is poorly thought-out at best.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@The Bard of Banefort

The fact they're keeping Harrold Westerling alive makes me think they're going with Criston just being the Green Lord Commander, which, as you say, doesn't make much sense when his only real claim to fame is literally crowning Aegon II.

@BlackLightning

I think what @Takiedevushkikakzvezdy is saying is that what is in GRRM's head doesn't always translate to what appears on paper (Darkstar being a "bad boy" like Oberyn, Daemon being a rogue who was equal parts light and dark, the Dance being about two sides you can find things to sympathize with/like about, etc.) and no one around him seems willing to tell him that (or really give him any constructive criticism at all).

[Lord Varys]

Just now, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Lord Varys

For me, main characters are the POVs. Considering a Targaryen history book is the only place we're likely to get in-depth information on previous generations of Kingsguard, I have to somewhat disagree. The fact that the Greens lose 800 to the Blacks 100 and Aegon + Sunfyre are taken out of the war for over a year makes Rook's Rest less than decisive in my opinion. Similarly, the fact that both Green commanders are taken out at First Tumbleton, causing the army to degenerate into lawlessness, makes it less than decisive in my opinion. Anyway, I think we should drop the subject since we both seem to agree the military aspect of the Dance is poorly thought-out at best.

The victory of Rook's Rest is measured by the objective - taking the castle, punishing the Stauntons and taking out a Black dragon and its rider. That was all accomplished.

Ditto with Tumbleton. That they didn't continue their campaign is a different matter. And it may have gone this way even if Ormund had lived (Bryndon was no commander to our knowledge, just his cousin) since the Two Betrayers wouldn't have become his lackeys, either.

3 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@The Bard of Banefort

The fact they're keeping Harrold Westerling alive makes me think they're going with Criston just being the Green Lord Commander, which, as you say, doesn't make much sense when his only real claim to fame is literally crowning Aegon II.

The way they present Criston makes their decision to not make him Lord Commander this early very good. The guy could not possibly have been Alicent's pet to this degree AND commanding the Kingsguard.

I never thought how this would play out in a more detailed setting ... but obviously not very well.

If they had gone with Criston as Lord Commander they would have to tone down his Green partisanship to a considerable degree, have him only utter his true feelings in complete privacy. Not sure how much screentime he would get in such a setting.

[The Bard of Banefort]

6 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@The Bard of Banefort

The fact they're keeping Harrold Westerling alive makes me think they're going with Criston just being the Green Lord Commander, which, as you say, doesn't make much sense when his only real claim to fame is literally crowning Aegon II.

@BlackLightning

I think what @Takiedevushkikakzvezdy is saying is that what is in GRRM's head doesn't always translate to what appears on paper (Darkstar being a "bad boy" like Oberyn, Daemon being a rogue who was equal parts light and dark, the Dance being about two sides you can find things to sympathize with/like about, etc.) and no one around him seems willing to tell him that (or really give him any constructive criticism at all).

Or like how surprised he was the fangirls love Theon, even though Theon is basically the Kylo Ren of ASOIAF. 

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

even though Theon is basically the Kylo Ren of ASOIAF. 

Granted I didn’t watch the last SW film but how does this comparison work?

[Lord Varys]

What do we make of Otto just being back as Hand with no, you know, explanation?

Just because Alicent writes letters Otto shouldn't be reappointed.

George gives some explanation for this, and that kind of works. The show avoids the issue by not dealing with it at all. Which I think is a mistake.

In the book Viserys considers both Rhaenyra and Daemon as Hands, while other advisors suggest a younger man (I'm sure Tyland and Jasper would have liked to take the job). It is Alicent's influence that ensures Otto is recalled to be the Hand.

In the book this is because Viserys has already decreed that Rhaenyra should permanently reside on Dragonstone in the wake of the Aemond incident ... and because he remembered that Daemon wasn't exactly successful on the council.

But in the show it is quite odd why he wouldn't first ask Rhaenyra or Daemon whether they want the job. We see at the funeral that he wanted Daemon to return to KL and he clearly very much favors Rhaenyra during the quarrel, so why doesn't he at least ask her whether she wants the job?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What do we make of Otto just being back as Hand with no, you know, explanation?

Just because Alicent writes letters Otto shouldn't be reappointed.

I've been thinking a lot about this myself, and I think it's another case of Alicent being the one who is really in charge. At this point, Viserys is so sick and over this stuff that he doesn't care anymore.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I've been thinking a lot about this myself, and I think it's another case of Alicent being the one who is really in charge. At this point, Viserys is so sick and over this stuff that he doesn't care anymore.

It doesn't look like that, though. Otto tells us in this very episode that Alicent would have to bring Viserys around again and she fears that she lost his favor for good.

The implication is that she can convince him of something if she works (hard) on him, not that she makes decisions for him. In the Helaena match case you see how it goes ... Viserys allows Alicent a word in the arrangement of the betrothal of their daughter, but she doesn't make the decision all by herself. But he is not going to make a decision in that case when it goes completely against her wishes.

But in the case of the Handship the last talk with Lyonel reinforced it that he had been an impartial Hand, one who didn't give self-serving advice. Meaning that Viserys still very much recalls that and why he dismissed Otto.

The show should have had Viserys trying to offer the Handship to Daemon only for him turning him down. And there should have been a reason why he wouldn't want Rhaenyra in that office.

Bringing back Otto is what triggers the Dance. Not giving the office to Rhaenyra or Daemon was what ensured that there might be an (attempted) coup.

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

What do we make of Otto just being back as Hand with no, you know, explanation?

Just because Alicent writes letters Otto shouldn't be reappointed.

George gives some explanation for this, and that kind of works. The show avoids the issue by not dealing with it at all. Which I think is a mistake. 

The show need not spell out everything but there needs to be an organic progression of things, which in this case there isn’t. The last we see of Otto is Viserys viewing him as someone who is undermining his daughter and heir and possibly even him. I get it, years have passed and Viserys is not the same but he has even more reason to be suspicious of Otto’s motives now, knowing that his daughter and wife don’t get along.

And to me, despite the time jumps in the show, there is no sense/ feeling that several years have passed. 

[Lord Varys]

23 minutes ago, teej6 said:

The show need not spell out everything but there needs to be an organic progression of things, which in this case there isn’t. The last we see of Otto is Viserys viewing him as someone who is undermining his daughter and heir and possibly even him. I get it, years have passed and Viserys is not the same but he has even more reason to be suspicious of Otto’s motives now, knowing that his daughter and wife don’t get along.

Yes, there should have been some inclination that Viserys was remembering Otto fondly, some reason why he may have considered recalling him. And also some reason why he would not want Rhaenyra in the office of the Hand. As his health is declining his top priority should have been to want to prepare his daughter to be queen, to shoulder more and more of his burdens so there would be a smooth succession.

I mean, sure enough, this cannot be ... but they should have given reasons why not. One possible take could have been Viserys offering the Handship to Rhaenyra and Rhaenyra telling her father she would only accept if he was sending Alicent away from court. Rhaenyra could have overdone things, causing her to return to Dragonstone sulking.

Also, of course, the Handship decision could have been made after Laenor's apparent death and the announcement of the Rhaenyra-Daemon marriage. Otto could have been there on Driftmark merely as Alicent's father and a funeral guest, without being Hand yet, and the Handship being a kind of price the Blacks, the Greens, and the Velaryons were vying for behind the scenes, knowing full well that this would be a most crucial appointment at that time.

Hell, Otto could have ingratiated himself with Viserys to regain his position by publicly siding with Rhaenyra during the Aemond incident.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Granted I didn’t watch the last SW film but how does this comparison work?

Oh, just that he’s the tortured sadboy with daddy issues that all the fangirls love.

[DMC]

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The show should have had Viserys trying to offer the Handship to Daemon only for him turning him down. And there should have been a reason why he wouldn't want Rhaenyra in that office.

 

I think it makes sense show-Viserys would go to Otto first.  In episode 6 it seemed like Daemon had lost all ambition, so there's no reason he'd be pushing for it.  Plus it seems like the brothers haven't seen each other since Viserys exiled him, again, a decade prior.  And while Viserys probably hasn't seen Otto much if at all during that time either, he was sacked for much less problematic reasons than Daemon.  Plus, of course, Alicent presumably pushed for it.  Larys, at least, seems to assume Viserys will re-install Otto if he kills his father.

Rhaenyra is an interesting notion, I would have liked to have seen that considered.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

Oh, just that he’s the tortured sadboy with daddy issues that all the fangirls love.

Seriously? Whiny Vader wannabe is actually a fan favorite?

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, Stenkarazine said:

Inevitably. There always will be seditious lords, malcontents, plotters and would-be rebels, even if Rhaenyra makes a decent job of ruling. 

There is an argument going like this: "well, yes, malcontent lords could gather around Aegon's claim, but he can just say no".

Except it doesn't work like that. Even if Aegon remains steadfastly loyal, he will not cease to be a potential rallying point for all and sundry, whether he wants it or not.

Do we really think that dear uncle Daemon would not have thought about that? He would probably have had his nephews gelded and thrown into a black cell at the first whiff of rebellion in the Realm. 

If only there was something like the Night's Watch, Church, or Maesters to send someone with a claim.

And yes, there will be people who rally around them.

And these revolts would happen anyway as we see with the Vulture Kings.

There is also the fact Aegon could rally around Rhaenyra and support her, which would strengthen her claim considerably.

Edited October 6, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think it makes sense show-Viserys would go to Otto first.  In episode 6 it seemed like Daemon had lost all ambition, so there's no reason he'd be pushing for it.

Viserys only meets Daemon again and learns about his state of mind after he has already named a new Hand, so Daemon's apparent lack of ambition wouldn't have been a reason not to consider him.

In context, one would assume that the court would have learned about Laena's death before Otto came back to KL, so Daemon would have been definitely a potential candidate - even more so since Viserys himself clearly wants his brother back at his side.

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

Plus it seems like the brothers haven't seen each other since Viserys exiled him, again, a decade prior.

Don't fill the blanks with book stuff. So far nothing (!) in the show indicates that Daemon and Laena were exiled. Laena describes them as 'travellers' to the Prince of Pentos, so the conclusion for the show is that Daemon had had enough of Westeros and went to see the world after he married Laena. They may even have left after the birth of the girls since both were given dragon eggs (it is possible that they are from a clutch from Vhagar, of course, but it might just as well be that Daemon received eggs for his newborn girls from Viserys before he left).

If they had been in exile then Laena would also not have urged Daemon to return but rather that he (or they) petition Viserys to allow them to come home. If they were exiled, then their return wouldn't have been their own decision.

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

And while Viserys probably hasn't seen Otto much if at all during that time either, he was sacked for much less problematic reasons than Daemon.  Plus, of course, Alicent presumably pushed for it.  Larys, at least, seems to assume Viserys will re-install Otto if he kills his father.

Larys assuming that Alicent writing a letter to Oldtown is all it would need to remake Otto the Hand is also quite odd.

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

Rhaenyra is an interesting notion, I would have liked to have seen that considered.

She is the other named candidate the book brings up besides Daemon, and the obvious choice in the show since there is literally no reason given why Viserys wouldn't consider her and also no reason why Rhaenyra wouldn't accept. She is the main candidate who should have been considered ... with there being a really good explanation why she didn't get the office.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Viserys only meets Daemon again and learns about his state of mind after he has already named a new Hand, so Daemon's apparent lack of ambition wouldn't have been a reason not to consider him.

My point was that Daemon clearly didn't seem like he'd be pushing for it before Viserys chose Otto.

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Don't fill the blanks with book stuff. So far nothing (!) in the show indicates that Daemon and Laena were exiled.

I wasn't.  I was referring to the two times Viserys exiled Daemon in the the show.  I had forgotten that Daemon showed up right after he killed Rhea at Rhaenyra and Laenor's wedding, granted.  Even thought about editing, but didn't because the point's the same - it does not seem like the brothers have seen each other in the intervening decade time skip.

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She is the other named candidate the book brings up besides Daemon, and the obvious choice in the show since there is literally no reason given why Viserys wouldn't consider her and also no reason why Rhaenyra wouldn't accept.

I know, I was agreeing with you.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

My point was that Daemon clearly didn't seem like he'd be pushing for it before Viserys chose Otto.

That would be true. But in the book Daemon was also not pushing for the office, and as I said since Daemon's return should have been a clear thing before the decision was made and considering that Viserys clearly wanted his brother to return to court it is quite odd that he apparently was never considered for the job.

Although I definitely would agree that he wasn't the ideal candidate for the job. But still one George has Viserys considering in the book, so they should have included that in the show, too.

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

I wasn't.  I was referring to the two times Viserys exiled Daemon in the the show.  I had forgotten that Daemon showed up right after he killed Rhea at Rhaenyra and Laenor's wedding, granted.  Even thought about editing, but didn't because the point's the same - it does not seem like the brothers have seen each other in the intervening decade time skip.

It does make a difference if Daemon marrying Laena Velaryon without royal permission leads to his exile ... or whether he just wanted to go away for his own reasons. The latter would make it much more likely that Viserys would want to favor him than the former.

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

I know, I was agreeing with you.

I know. I don't just react or reply to posts just because I want to argue. There I did it to reinforce your point.

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That would be true. But in the book Daemon was also not pushing for the office, and as I said since Daemon's return should have been a clear thing before the decision was made and considering that Viserys clearly wanted his brother to return to court it is quite odd that he apparently was never considered for the job.

Obviously Viserys wanted him to return.  The way Laena was pushing for Daemon to return in episode 6 suggests Viserys may have wanted him to return for years.  However, I still think in the show context it makes sense Viserys would go to Otto first/prefer him to Daemon.  Daemon was a problem for him at court, he exiled him, Daemon came back in splendor, then Viserys exiled him again in, like, a week's time for seducing Rhaenyra.  Viserys is clearly willing to forgive Daemon - allowing him to attend Rhaenyra and Laenor's wedding is proof enough of that - but that doesn't mean he'd trust him to be hand over Otto.

I understand Viserys "considered" Daemon in the books, but that doesn't mean Daemon was his first choice.  He may well have "considered" Daemon in the show too, but I don't think it's a glaring omission that he went to Otto first.

Rhaenyra, on the other hand, is a glaring omission.

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It does make a difference if Daemon marrying Laena Velaryon without royal permission leads to his exile ... or whether he just wanted to go away for his own reasons. The latter would make it much more likely that Viserys would want to favor him than the former.

Sure.  Obviously if Viserys had exiled BOTH Daemon and Laena to Pentos that would make a huge difference in whether he'd consider the former as his hand.  But again you're missing my point.  There's no reason to think Viserys did exile both of them - I mean literally he should have no reason to exile Laena other than perhaps marrying Daemon without his leave - and it's directly contradicted by the conversations Daemon and Laena have about returning in episode 6.  I'm sorry I messed up the wording in my original post, but to be clear I do not think Damon was exiled while in Pentos.

Edited October 6, 2022 by DMC