[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion

[BlackLightning]

37 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yes. And HBO defended it as a "creative choice" in a recent Variety piece.

I should've damn known.

Not a fan of Sapochnik and I'm lowkey glad that he's no longer showrunner.

 

Why would that be a creative choice? If it's an eclipse, okay cool. Why was the contrast and the brightness turned super low on those cameras? It's never that dark during an eclipse...

[Winterfell is Burning]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

They don't speak High Valyrian.

 

Don't they? I'm not sure the show established that, but being the language of the monarchy, I imagine most well-educated people would know.

[BlackLightning]

18 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Don't they? I'm not sure the show established that, but being the language of the monarchy, I imagine most well-educated people would know.

Sure, Otto might know.

But knowing a language (particularly a dead one like High Valyrian) is different from having a native fluency in it.

But given that the only ones who react to Vaemond's words are 1) the Valyrians and 2) the adults, I'd say that that Vaemond is using double entendres to communicate his insults and that these double entendres are going over the heads of everyone except for the grown adults whose first language is Valyrian.

 

Who is going to have conversations to Otto or Alicent in Valyrian? Otto might be able to read or understand bits and pieces of it (like Tyrion was in the books) but he'd only be able to pick up on a few words and phrases.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

They don't speak High Valyrian.

Pretty sure they do, since it is taught by maesters and even a dead language to the Targaryens. All the nobility seem to be getting lessons in High Valyrian, Otto was a very learned guy, anyway, and Alicent would have learned her High Valyrian together with Rhaenyra.

Emilia Clarke's silly remark that 'Valyrian is her mother tongue' was just that ... silly. Although Dany's grasp of High Valyrian and its dialects may be much better than that of many other Targaryens considering that she grew up in the Free Cities and would have used various Valyrian dialects to converse with the people she met there.

[BlackLightning]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Pretty sure they do, since it is taught by maesters and even a dead language to the Targaryens. All the nobility seem to be getting lessons in High Valyrian, Otto was a very learned guy, anyway, and Alicent would have learned her High Valyrian together with Rhaenyra.

Emilia Clarke's silly remark that 'Valyrian is her mother tongue' was just that ... silly. Although Dany's grasp of High Valyrian and its dialects may be much better than that of many other Targaryens considering that she grew up in the Free Cities and would have used various Valyrian dialects to converse with the people she met there.

I don't think the nobility gets lessons in High Valyrian. None of the ASOIAF characters - not the older ones who lived under the Targaryen dynasty nor the younger ones who had maesters or parents who had an appreciation of things such as Valyrian - speak or know it.

Now septons and maesters are an different matter. We know this seeing as a septa stationed at Casterly Rock was the only one who knew what the word valonqar meant. And valonqar would be one of the most basic of words.

 

Otto probably knows some High Valyrian, but I doubt he'd be able to carry a conversation...much less an adult conversation replete with metaphors and double entendres.

Alicent? I doubt it. She might have book knowledge but again...would she be able to read an ornate text like Rhaenyra could?

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I don't think the nobility gets lessons in High Valyrian. None of the ASOIAF characters - not the older ones who lived under the Targaryen dynasty nor the younger ones who had maesters or parents who had an appreciation of things such as Valyrian - speak or know it.

You can also learn Latin in school and not care about Rome at all. Tywin had no reason to have his maester teach Tyrion High Valyrian ... but he did, indicating that this is part of the standard curriculum.

12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Now septons and maesters are an different matter. We know this seeing as a septa stationed at Casterly Rock was the only one who knew what the word valonqar meant. And valonqar would be one of the most basic of words.

A specific word for 'little brother' might not actually be *that* common. Cersei turning to a septa rather than a maester makes also sense considering her gender.

12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Otto probably knows some High Valyrian, but I doubt he'd be able to carry a conversation...much less an adult conversation replete with metaphors and double entendres.

Alicent? I doubt it. She might have book knowledge but again...would she be able to read an ornate text like Rhaenyra could?

The Hightowers do run and own the Citadel. It is their project. They finance it. Meaning they should get the best education there is for their own family.

Alicent was raised at court with Rhaenyra, so one would imagine they had classes together.

I guess that Rhaenyra's own obsession with Valyrian could go back to the thing she has with Daemon there ... which might, perhaps, indicate that he gave her some lessons himself when she was younger.

But the Targaryens also learn the language from maesters. It is a dead language.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Lord Varys

[SeanF]

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Pretty sure they do, since it is taught by maesters and even a dead language to the Targaryens. All the nobility seem to be getting lessons in High Valyrian, Otto was a very learned guy, anyway, and Alicent would have learned her High Valyrian together with Rhaenyra.

Emilia Clarke's silly remark that 'Valyrian is her mother tongue' was just that ... silly. Although Dany's grasp of High Valyrian and its dialects may be much better than that of many other Targaryens considering that she grew up in the Free Cities and would have used various Valyrian dialects to converse with the people she met there.

In books, there’s no reason to believe Dany speaks High Valyrian.  She knows the Valyrian dialects of some free cities, like someone speaking common Greek in 5th century Constantinople, as opposed to the language of Plato.

[DMC]

I don't see any reason to assume general Andalos nobility would know Valyrian as a language.  The maesters, sure, and maybe learned septons, but otherwise that's not the type of education nobles would be interested in teaching their kids/heirs.  The Latin comparison as a dead language is rather apt - some kids learn it, but even those that do aren't going to be fluent in it.  They make pick up a few words here and there, but it'd be like me trying to pick up Spanish after taking ~7 years of Spanish when I was a kid.

[dsjj251]

18 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

You're not making arguments about what I'm saying. Therefore tossing around language like 'I proved you wrong' is even more foolish as you don't seem to grasp how that does or does not play into what I'm saying.  



 

Cool, you believe we are talking past one another, so simplify your responses to direct context. 

Each time I ask you to explain your argument , you say one of 2 things "its clear to me/my opinion"(or some version of that) or "i said if"

Assuming you are genuinly trying to make a point and not talking in circles, I ask this. Dont talk in hypotheticals aka "ifs"  AND give examples to back up your claims instead of simply saying you believe something to be true. 

18 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I mean seriously, if you're not interested in these questions then you don't want to see the narrative adapted. You assume it to be fundamentally evil and therefore don't understand how her motivations might add or remove moral depth behind her faction.  

Do you even hear yourself? 

The problem with your argument is that I never said her motivations in the context of the Book/show didnt matter. I said your argument didnt matter. 2 separate things. 

Alicent's in universe claim is that Rhaenyra would kill her children.  However, YOU , the reader cant make that argument as you personally know Rhaenyra's inner thoughts from the book.  You know Alicent to be wrong, regardless of if Alicent knows it. Thats what im saying. 
 

18 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

The book does not definitively put its weight on one side or the other. It leaves room to imagine Alicent had such thoughts in her head by building up the rivalry between her and Rhaenyra, disclosing hints about Rhaenyra's morally dubious outings, suggesting her to be bitter or jealous, etc. 

 

 

 

Im not the only person responding to you in this thread. Multiple people have said they dont see the jealous  Rhaenyra that you do, and idk about the others, but I asked for an example and you never gave one. 

instead of saying "read the book again", simply tell me what you see as her being jealous ?

18 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Oh dude come on, there is always a threat if not from Rhaenyra directly then someone else. 

Rhaenyra offering that pact however means Alicent is no longer driven by a love for her children. And the alternative motivations lack any depth for her character as she has not before shown a great lust for power and jealousy which itself is such a shallow and unsympathetic excuse for war. 

If the show does not offer a compelling reason for her to oppose Rhaenyra, the only two things left are power and jealousy, neither of which have much moral authority in the eyes of the viewer or much nuance in themselves to explore as neither jealousy or a lust for power were established in her character before hand. 
 

 

Ugh, again, Alicent doesnt have to be right about Rhaenyra to fear her and genuinely fear for the lives of her kids.  Do you genuinely not understand that concept ?

 

18 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

Well then there isn't much to talk about with someone like you. It's beyond me how your post gets a single like at all, you are either being deliberately obtuse or just rushing to reply to my comment without any interest in having a discussion.  

Why does how many people like my post matter at all to you ?

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

Foot fetish? 
Larys Strong?
We talking about foot fuckers?! 
…those arches…wool hosiery… princess piggy toes…the perfect pod, oh to get into those boots! The smell of wool on them little piggy’s…

That would have been awesome. It gives him a creepy character flaw that would work on many levels.

The  WHY of the lighting of the episode should be discussed not defamed. 
Why is the choice made to show a character bathed in light at times and at other times shrouded in black night shadows? Is the light a character in the show? Are day, night, shadows also a character in the show? The choice is yours. Put on a thinking cap or don a jingle belled one.

I love day for night photography. My favorite example The Haunting directed by Robert Wise. A lot of people know him by his sci-fi work, The Day the Earth Stood Still. But the Haunting, That movie holds up as creepy and scary. Watch it! I dare ya! 
If you watch it or even have seen it let me know. I shall reward you!

Edited October 7, 2022 by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

What do Hulls mean to you?

Daemon takes cover under a Hull on the Stepstones.

Daemon goes under the covers with his niece under a Hull.

 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

What’s the difference between the cruel game and the ugly game?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

17 minutes ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

What’s the difference between the cruel game and the ugly game?

An ugly game is the opposite of The Beautiful Game, i.e. soccer.

Soccer can be a cruel game, depending on how the match is going.

[butterweedstrover]

6 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Cool, you believe we are talking past one another, so simplify your responses to direct context. 
 

You can selectively quote my posts all day long, but I have. I literally have told you what I am arguing in the simplest of terms. I have bolded the sentences, I have repeated, and I have argued it throughout the whole thread. 

You reply with stuff like 'Rhaenyra would never harm Alicent's children' or 'Alicent and Rhaenyra didn't hate each other in the book'. Or act as if Alicent is jealous of Rhaenyra something never even alluded to in the book.  

And then you just keep going, referencing head-canon and misinterpreting F&B for no reason. 

So before I continue to exert energy on this please tell me: What is my argument? and why do you disagree. 

Because if we can't establish that then we can't continue. 

[EggBlue]

4 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

The  WHY of the lighting of the episode should be discussed not defamed. 
Why is the choice made to show a character bathed in light at times and at other times shrouded in black night shadows? Is the light a character in the show? Are day, night, shadows also a character in the show? The choice is yours. Put on a thinking cap or don a jingle belled one.

the why of it is Vhaegar ( night light=less details on dragon=longer , better delivered scene ) and the fact that it works better if all the scenes are consistently following one another , instead of having Aemond go to sleep and then wake up in the middle of the night to go to Vhaegar.

now we should ask why it's so dead dark that nothing can be seen? that is not a creative choice . that's bad technic .

[dsjj251]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

You can selectively quote my posts all day long, but I have. I literally have told you what I am arguing in the simplest of terms. I have bolded the sentences, I have repeated, and I have argued it throughout the whole thread. 

 

You have repeated the same argument and never given a single example from the book.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

You reply with stuff like 'Rhaenyra would never harm Alicent's children'

 

Yes, i did say this

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

or 'Alicent and Rhaenyra didn't hate each other in the book'.

 

I also said this 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

 

Or act as if Alicent is jealous of Rhaenyra something never even alluded to in the book.  

 

I never argued this at all. idk if you are mixing up who you have argued with. You were right on the first 2, but I never said this . I did say Rhaenyra wasnt jealous of Alicent. 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

And then you just keep going, referencing head-canon and misinterpreting F&B for no reason. 

 

LOL, i dont mind you using a term I used, but here you are clearly just trying to use it because I said you were. 

Never once have i argued head canon. 90% of our debating has been me asking you to give an example from the book to back up your belief , and you just wont.  Trying to flip the argument doesnt work when I have actually given examples to back up my claims. 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

So before I continue to exert energy on this please tell me: What is my argument? and why do you disagree. 

Because if we can't establish that then we can't continue. 

The original premise

You : There should be nuance to who is good and who is bad


My response was that Fire and Blood does indeed paint one side as better than the other, so the nuance you are asking for isnt actually what Martin intended overall, or at least not what he conveyed in the book. Others have replied and said the same, the Blacks are clearly the good guys, even if all their tactics to win werent above board. They didnt start the war. They didnt draw first blood. 

 

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, SeanF said:

In books, there’s no reason to believe Dany speaks High Valyrian.  She knows the Valyrian dialects of some free cities, like someone speaking common Greek in 5th century Constantinople, as opposed to the language of Plato.

That is true, although one would imagine that if she got tutors who taught her the languages she does speak and understand (and she could have never picked up sufficient vocabulary and grammar just from servants, much less 'on the streets') she may have also had some lessons in High Valyrian, considering it is basically the Latin of the Valyrian world, not so much the Latin of Westeros.

But it is true that Dany does recognize the Ghiscari Valyrian dialects because she is fluent in a number of other Valyrian dialects.

[slant]

9 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

What do Hulls mean to you?

Daemon takes cover under a Hull on the Stepstones.

Daemon goes under the covers with his niece under a Hull.

 

I noticed the same thing lol! I posted about it also earlier in the thread! 

Daemon seems to have a thing for shipwrecks. 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

My response was that Fire and Blood does indeed paint one side as better than the other, so the nuance you are asking for isnt actually what Martin intended overall, or at least not what he conveyed in the book. Others have replied and said the same, the Blacks are clearly the good guys, even if all their tactics to win werent above board. They didnt start the war. They didnt draw first blood.

It is kind of akin to people complaining about the Bracken-Blackwood thing. Even if you agree with the idea that they are 'treated unfairly' (which I don't really) then we don't have any right to demand that they are 'treated better' because the author never said he was presenting them in a balanced manner.

With the Dance folks kind of deluded themselves into believing that both sides were equally right or equally wrong ... but that just isn't the case, just as it isn't in the War of the Five Kings or the Blackfyre Rebellion or many of the other wars. The Greens staged a coup and they started a war. They first imprisoned people, they drew first blood, they started executing people.

The Blacks nearly always fight back ... and especially the Riverlanders are mostly defending their homes against invaders from other regions (Westermen and Crownlanders).

Most of the Blacks are also personally more sympathetic than the Greens, just like the Starks and Tullys in the main series are, on average, more sympathetic than the Lannisters and Baratheons.

But the show really went out of its way to make Otto and Alicent and Aemond pretty sympathetic. They are three-dimensional characters now, and you feel for them. But their actions and plans still suck and they are just wrong.

[EggBlue]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But the show really went out of its way to make Otto and Alicent and Aemond pretty sympathetic. They are three-dimensional characters now, and you feel for them. But their actions and plans still suck and they are just wrong.

so , you think I can't hope they'll skip mass-murderer Aemond part or cold kinslayer Aemond?! because , I've really started liking this kid (special thanks to the kid actor) . believe it or not , show has done something that I'm rooting for Aemond to kill Daemon above god's eye . not the other way around!