[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

19 hours ago, Littlest Finger said:

Halaena’s prophecy this episode. “Hand turns loom. Spool of green, spool of black

I’ve been working on loom stuff. Was really happy to hear this dialogue. I shall have to work the weave and follow the threads until my thoughts untangle into a comprehensive post.

I love this subject, you got a friend to share ideas with me  

[EggBlue]

9 hours ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

But I do believe if the Greens threw their full support behind Rhaenyra, or dare I say it the Blacks throwing their full support for Aegon, everything would have have been fine and might have even ushered in a second age Valyria. However this story is a tragedy.

that's totally right . there were so many ways that this family could prevent civil war in the show . the notion that Alicent thinks her children are in danger and thus pushes Aegon's claim is rather comical to me.* if she truly feared for her children , she would have adopted Aegon's plan and didn't present any challenge and would have welcomed Haelaena/Jace offer . on the other hand, Rhaenyra , who was fully aware that people may favor Aegon over her and that Alicent was starting to become an enemy ,  could have tried to form a relationship with her half-siblings , in order to both make sure they stay loyal and to lessen Alicent's paranoia after Otto's departure . heck , going by the book she could suggest taking Aegon as her new consort after Laenor's death , never mind her pride! while in the show , if there was smallest hope to prevent a war after Aemond's incident , Rhaenyra cemented the enmity by taking Daemon as her husband . especially that she didn't even need to marry Daemon to have him by her side whenever war began.**

 

 

*honestly, it feels rather unearned . Alicent's transition should have been slowly and over those first five episodes . they did some things but that wasn't nearly enough . they could easily utilize Alicent's conventional views to have her slowly think about Aegon's claim (with daddy's help , to be sure) . Rhaenyra and Alicent's talk over Aemma's new child in ep1 where Rh doesn't care about her position and Alicent thinks that's something to care about could be a perfect start to show Alicent's ambition which they completely dropped afterwards. Alicent could be sympathetic and ambition both at the same time and it would have made her a great villain . 

 

** a detail I really liked in this episode was Daemon and Otto's reactions to the whole Alicent-Rhaenyra scene . they both stayed as observers in a doorway , seemed proud and they were both clearly enjoying the mess they had made .it's evident that in the show if anyone's to blame for the dance it's Otto (the guy who pimped his own daughter and sees his grandsons as his pawns) and Daemon( a guy who groomed his own niece) . although, I still blame Jaeherys in the book. 

 

[DMC]

42 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

the notion that Alicent thinks her children are in danger and thus pushes Aegon's claim is rather comical to me.*

I really don't think it's unearned.  Episode 5 starts with Otto guilting her and warning her about this.  Then we see her isolated and Larys planting doubts, then we see her learning the truth from Cole.  THAT'S the turn, and it's all interconnected.  If you don't like it or think it isn't played out enough, fair enough, but it's all there.

[EggBlue]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

I really don't think it's unearned.  Episode 5 starts with Otto guilting her and warning her about this.  Then we see her isolated and Larys planting doubts, then we see her learning the truth from Cole.  THAT'S the turn, and it's all interconnected.  If you don't like it or think it isn't played out enough, fair enough, but it's all there.

yeah , it's not a if  , as I said later in the same post , they did do some things . but like I said, I personally don't think it's enough . in episodes 1&2 Alicent is confused about how she feels about the whole Viserys thing . although , there's the episode 1 Heart Tree conversation that's pretty much suggestive that Alicent could be ambitious . then ep3&4 instead of giving a slowly growing ambition alongside the growing jealousy in ep4 and righteousness problems thanks to conventional background, we get a backwards to simply loyal Alicent . then everything else is cramped in first half of ep5 . opportunity was right there in ep3. Otto could mention that he worries about what others may make Rhaenyra do to her half-siblings with Alicent completely rejecting the idea. only for her to rethink it in ep5. 

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

opportunity was right there in ep3. Otto could mention that he worries about what others may make Rhaenyra do to her half-siblings with Alicent completely rejecting the idea. only for her to rethink it in ep5. 

....isn't this roughly what happens?  Otto pushes Aegon as heir in episode 3 and Alicent balks because she still believes in her friendship with Rhaenyra?  My memory isn't perfect, but that was definitely episode 3 or 4.

[slant]

I was thinking and thinking what Helaena's rambling reminded me of, and it finally clicked! The intro sequence to Wheel of Time.  

[EggBlue]

7 hours ago, DMC said:

....isn't this roughly what happens?  Otto pushes Aegon as heir in episode 3 and Alicent balks because she still believes in her friendship with Rhaenyra?  My memory isn't perfect, but that was definitely episode 3 or 4.

nope. in that episode Otto talks about Aegon becoming king but he doesn't express any worries about what might happen to Aegon and what lords may expect from Rhaenyra to do . it's not even remotely implied that there could be any legitimate concern for Alicent's children until ep5 which gets all hyped up in ep6. I think for this fear to work Alicent should reject it first and then goes back to thinking about it and questioning it after Rhaenyra's "betrayal of trust" . furthermore , they had laid the ground work for Alicent to think Rhaenyra might not want the throne anyways which could make her more open to the idea of king Aegon roughly from the beginning . 

[Cashless Society]

9 hours ago, EggBlue said:

opportunity was right there in ep3. Otto could mention that he worries about what others may make Rhaenyra do to her half-siblings with Alicent completely rejecting the idea. only for her to rethink it in ep5. 

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

nope. in that episode Otto talks about Aegon becoming king but he doesn't express any worries about what might happen to Aegon and what lords may expect from Rhaenyra to do . it's not even remotely implied that there could be any legitimate concern for Alicent's children until ep5 which gets all hyped up in ep6. I think for this fear to work Alicent should reject it first and then goes back to thinking about it and questioning it after Rhaenyra's "betrayal of trust" . furthermore , they had laid the ground work for Alicent to think Rhaenyra might not want the throne anyways which could make her more open to the idea of king Aegon roughly from the beginning . 

Wouldn't this then make both Otto and Alicent idiots? Alicent would already be alerted to Otto seeking to usurp the throne from Rhaenyra, making his every action suspicious from Alicent's point-of-view. When he tells Viserys of Rhaenyra's activities in the brothel, Alicent wouldn't need to go speak to Rhaenyra about as she could reasonably conclude that this is Otto scheming. Alicent also comes across as unlikeable too early, as instead of warning her friend of the scheming going on she does absolutely nothing about it.

[DMC]

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

in that episode Otto talks about Aegon becoming king but he doesn't express any worries about what might happen to Aegon and what lords may expect from Rhaenyra to do

I didn't say that, I said he pushes Aegon as heir.  This is again really splitting hairs.

[EggBlue]

2 hours ago, Cashless Society said:

Wouldn't this then make both Otto and Alicent idiots? Alicent would already be alerted to Otto seeking to usurp the throne from Rhaenyra, making his every action suspicious from Alicent's point-of-view. When he tells Viserys of Rhaenyra's activities in the brothel, Alicent wouldn't need to go speak to Rhaenyra about as she could reasonably conclude that this is Otto scheming. Alicent also comes across as unlikeable too early, as instead of warning her friend of the scheming going on she does absolutely nothing about it.

not an idiot ,i guess . and yeah it'll make Alicent suspicious but I wouldn't be so sure that she'd jump into conclusion about her father before talking to Rhaenyra . her talk to Rhaenyra makes her just completely sure that she should stay by Rhaenyra's side which later leads to her father's dismissal . something that for a 18-20 yr old girl who already feels isolated will be very upsetting to say the least , never mind if Otto deserves that or not . then, Otto scolds her about being too naive and trusting and reminds her again that Rhaenyra won't be her friend and will pose a danger to her kids, afterwards Larys makes her doubt her decision further and talking with Cole makes her completely sure that her father's right and that Rhaenyra's just a brat who'd been manipulating her and she should not put it passed her to become a kinslayer after all .

22 minutes ago, DMC said:

I didn't say that, I said he pushes Aegon as heir.  This is again really splitting hairs.

I know. I was just pointing out the difference . don't get me wrong .I find the show enjoyable as it is but they only needed small details to better deliver Alicent's transition . as it is , she was almost completely flipped in one episode. Rhaenyra's betrayal was not that big and definitely not that personal to make Alicent change her beliefs altogether and never go back ,for 10 yrs. she needed doubts beforehand for the betrayal to work as the last nail to the coffin . it's like ep3&4 are wasted in that particular regard .

[Lord Varys]

23 hours ago, DMC said:

Yeah, I agree this is her primary motivation, we're just nitpicking at this point.  One thing I will say is I don't view the fear of her children being killed by Rhaenyra as any type of "evil stepmother" trope.

No, not that. The evil stepmother trope would be the idea that the mere fact that Alicent has children means they have to come before Rhaenyra. The whole Cinderella thing, basically. And they clearly avoided that, with Alicent actually siding with Rhaenyra repeatedly while she already had a son and a daughter.

It kind of place a role eventually, but not really a decisive role, I think.

And to be sure - it is Otto's brother who pushes for this thing. Otto himself is originally also torn between his loyalty to his king on whose behalf he operates, and the loyalty to his brother and his house.

@dsjj251: Don't bother discussing Rhaenyra's character. It is both funny and sad to what depths people will sink to paint her in the blackest of colors. They cite the Vaemond thing (on which she is supported by Corlys and Rhaenys), they criticize her for planning a 'lavish celebration' for Joff's investiture as Prince of Dragonstone (when it is crystal clear that the Heir Apparent to the throne usually gets such a celebration and that's necessary to send a clear message to the Realm at large), they point out that she gets unpopular and is viewed as 'Maegor with teats' during her short reign ... but ignore the brutal reality of her situation that there was no alternative to high taxes and stuff in light of a treasury emptied out by the Greens. Rhaenyra is a monarch that fails not because of her own shortcomings as a ruler, but by circumstances that were (completely) out of her control.

She isn't exactly the best ruler imaginable in the book ... but infinitely better than both Aegon II and Aemond. And the flaws she has are not the flaws of a cruel tyrant, but of a weak ruler. She is too reluctant, too timid, too merciful.

Unlike with really bad monarchs Rhaenyra's bad decisions are mostly consensual decisions, representing the majority opinion of her court and council. She is not a Maegor or Aerys II running amok, but a monarch maneuvering her court and trying to not antagonize the bulk of her supporters by going against majority opinion.

Her biggest mistake likely was to send Ulf and Hugh to Tumbleton rather than pairing them with a dragonrider she could trust implicitly - she should have sent Daemon and Hugh to Tumbleton, say, while charging Addam and Ulf with the Aemond hunt, keeping Nettles and Joffrey in KL. Being more generous to them could also have helped, although things could have worked well enough if Hugh and Ulf had been under proper supervision.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Lord Varys

[BlackLightning]

On 10/8/2022 at 10:37 AM, DMC said:

I think it's part and parcel of Alicent's shift in episode 5 - starting with Otto trying to convince her of such and her feelings of guilt for playing a part in his sacking.  It's obviously wrapped up in the feelings of betrayal and jealousy which the show has emphasized, but I think the introduction of that fear - particularly as she loses trust in Rhaenyra - is important.

Which just only proves that we desperately needed an episode to take place between episode 5 and 6

23 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Huh, it occurs to me that we’ve now had three episodes in a row end with some kind of voiceover.

It's just a way for the showrunners and/or the writer to cram as much information and action as humanly possible into one episode

The show would've been much better served if the pre-war story took place over two seasons.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I just think that Alicent real issue with Rhaenyra is that she feels betrayed by her and considers her as no longer worthy to be queen. Alicent feels this whore manipulated her into siding with her against her own father and children.

I agree.

And that's where the envy and the deep feelings of injustice comes in. "Why does she get to do that and get away with it, when I have to do this. I am more worthy of queenship than she is. It's not fair!"

The thing is that it was never about manipulating her into turning against her father and children. Rhaenyra did deceive her and betray her trust...but Alicent is taking it way too personally. I know she's a teenager, but she can't seem to understand the fact that Rhaenyra lied so that she didn't get into trouble.

When you sit back and really think about their feud, it's very childish. Looking back, it was a much better decision to cast both of them as teenage girls with Alicent being the elder and Rhaenyra the younger rather than go with the Cinderella/Drew Barrymore's "Ever After" vibe of Alicent as the dutiful, young, upstart wife versus Rhaenyra as the lonely, bratty but nonetheless pretty damn cool daughter.

There's a lot more gravitas to the "childhood friends who become bitter enemies as adults after having had one too many misunderstandings" story than the "the man's wife and daughter hate each other for reasons that are pretty valid and understandable"

I feel like Alicent is Sansa and Rhaenyra is the Arya if Ned Stark wasn't their father and if they were basically forced to grow up together and then compete.

Really, Alicent is (early) Sansa-meets-Stannis with a little twist of Aeron Greyjoy whereas Rhaenyra is all parts Arya, Renly, Cersei, Viserys III and Jon Snow. Not a great combination to be honest but it has its charm.

[BlackLightning]

5 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Otto scolds her about being too naive and trusting and reminds her again that Rhaenyra won't be her friend and will pose a danger to her kids, afterwards Larys makes her doubt her decision further and talking with Cole makes her completely sure that her father's right and that Rhaenyra's just a brat who'd been manipulating her and she should not put it passed her to become a kinslayer after all

That's the problem with anxiety-riddled logic.

I get that Rhaenyra has proven herself untrustworthy by being caught in a lie. But to go from "she swore by the old gods, the new gods and her mother's grave about having sex" to "she is going to kill all of my children just so she can maintain power" is a huge leap in logic.

Rhaenyra is basically Ned Stark lol.

• both lie about having sex outside of marriage
• both lie about having children outside of wedlock
• both make mortal enemies out of a queen and a Kingsguard
• both consider it unthinkable to murder children to protect one's own station
• both are clueless 

 

 

Speaking of envy...what's the color most associated with emotion of envy? And what is the color black most associated with across the board?

GRRM did it on purpose.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

12 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Rhaenyra is basically Ned Stark lol.

I din't know, I think she's definitely more like Cersei.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Helaena has a very deep voice for a little girl.

[BlackLightning]

2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I din't know, I think she's definitely more like Cersei.

Did you read my list of their similarities?

It's hilariously absurd for the King and the Small Council to think that Ned Stark would approve of the assassination of a child princess (legally speaking, Dany was still a child at that time as the age of majority in the civilized world is 16) just on account of her being pregnant. Maybe it's because they think Ned Stark is still vengeful after all these years or because he had sex with someone who wasn't his spouse and lied about having a bastard...which would make him just like them.

Alicent thinks that Rhaenyra is capable of not only murdering innocent children but kinslaying as well because Rhaenyra snuck out, hung out in a brothel with her uncle, had sex with a Kingsguard knight and lied about it.

The logic of it all.

 

I can see the Cersei comparisons. They make sense. But Cersei has no problem whatsoever with harming and killing children. She's actually really good at it; she has decades of experience. Cersei also has no problem with killing her husband:, wishing for him to rot and celebrating his death

If there is any one like Cersei, it is Alicent. Well, we aren't there yet and judging by the way that they are making surprise changes to the story, I'll just say Book Alicent.

[butterweedstrover]

19 hours ago, EggBlue said:

the notion that Alicent thinks her children are in danger and thus pushes Aegon's claim is rather comical to me.

 

Well yeah, the show is portraying it in a way that seems unbelievable. But the show didn't have to do that, it was a creative decision. 

[butterweedstrover]

22 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Yes, a lot of "ifs" 

Yeah, because the show didn't do that. Instead the show decided to expand upon the source material in a far less interesting way.

22 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Cool, but that has nothing to do with your argument or mine.  

Yes it does. 

22 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Again, not once have you shown any of this.

Your best argument for Rhaenyra being violent would be of Daemon killing Vaemond. 

 

Again, give examples of these flaws you speak of. 

I did once:

On 10/3/2022 at 10:09 AM, butterweedstrover said:

book quote: “Childbirth exacted a toll on the princess; the weight that Rhaenyra gained during her pregnancies never entirely left her, and by the time her youngest boy was born, she had grown stout and thick of waist, the beauty of her girlhood a fading memory, though she was but twenty years of age. According to Mushroom, this only served to deepen her resentment of her stepmother, Queen Alicent, who remained slender and graceful at half again her age.”  
 

22 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

 

Yes, you wrongly claimed she left for a reason that she did not.  As others said, she also didnt lose the nickname because she was now ugly( but even if she had been ugly, that doesnt make her jealous which is your other flaw) 

She lost the moniker because she was bitter and harsh, not because she was ugly. 

As for her leaving Dragonstone, the book only gives Viserys' public reasoning. Rhaenyra is his heir and had she wanted to stay she might have argued the point. Instead she is unofficially exiled, why? 

Because her relationship with Alicent was deteriorating, something you deny is part of the source material. 

22 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

No, the terms "Blacks" and "Greens" are both used retroactively. im not saying they didnt hate each other before the war, im saying we never get an example of that in story. We can assume the Aemond eye incident counts , but what else ????? 

It's all over the book. The narrator mentions their rivalry with every chance, even the artwork does it. It is why Alicent spreads rumors about Rhaenyra's children being bastards, and it's why there is an ongoing cold war between them at court (before Viserys forces the issue). 

22 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

 

 

No one is arguing the "Opposite", I simply said the book never shows Rhaenyra being jealous of Alicent, and here again, you claim the book says it does but does not give an example. I dont need a page number or an exact quote, just context to your claim, what situation in Fire and Blood makes you believe this ???? 

I gave you the quote again. The book is written by Martin who introduces concepts important to the story. 

And the show is arguing the opposite. Which is my point, the show took MORE liberties with the source material to water down Alicent's character than my suggestions would have. 

22 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Ok, i didnt clarify this earlier, but I need to now 

Show motivation : Hubert wants Aegon on the thrown and convinces Otto of the same, Otto then scares Alicent into believing Rhaenyra will kill her children.  

You're removing any agency from Alicent's character. She is best friends with Rhaenyra, not Otto. She has ten years to figure out Rhaenyra who from what we see offers Alicent's children de facto immunity. 

So Alicent rejecting the offer isn't her being afraid Rhaenyra might kill her kids, it is her being either jealous or power hungry, something Otto didn't scare her into believing. 

Do you see the problem? In Episode 5 Otto pressures Alicent by arguing her children are in danger. In Episode 6 Alicent shows no more interest in keeping her kids safe and want the throne for reasons of jealousy or power. 

22 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Book motivation : We dont actually get one, the dialogue we here in the show is pretty much what will be said at the Green Council, but it isnt said  in book until that moment. And even then, it reads more as justifications rather than reasoning. The Ageon window scene in show is pretty much the same as  what we get in the book right after Viserys dies . Aegon and Aemond in the next episode both refer to Helaena as a his future queen, not wife. 

And having Alicent take the throne out of fear for her children would be more in line with the source material than having her take it out of jealousy. Which is my point, all of this is a creative decision meant to water down the story's potential. 

22 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

And Yes, the death of Luke makes them villains, 100% , because even in that moment, Luke clearly isnt there to kill Aemond, who is already a traitor.  

Aemond isn't Alicent. 

22 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

This is an example of you saying something exists in the book, but not actually giving an example. I dont need you to quote the exact line word for word, I just need an actual example so we can compare notes , thats it. 

You can figure out what page it was when Viserys orders Rhaenyra away from court. The thing about F&B is that it is not a novel, nor does it provide motivations. We only know what happens, adding to the character psychology isn't deviating from the book. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[The Bard of Banefort]

I don’t know if you guys watched the BTS, but the kid who played Aemond was so darn cute. He also posted on Instagram about how happy he was that people liked the episode, and how he was worried people were going to hate him 

[dsjj251]

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yeah, because the show didn't do that. Instead the show decided to expand upon the source material in a far less interesting way.

You have every right to that opinion.  But you are using "ifs" as an excuse to not be pinned down on a subject and change your argument when needed. 

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yes it does. 

no.

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I did once:

Mushroom is not a source. You can pretend he is all you want, but no one takes that seriously. 

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

She lost the moniker because she was bitter and harsh, not because she was ugly. 

As for her leaving Dragonstone, the book only gives Viserys' public reasoning. Rhaenyra is his heir and had she wanted to stay she might have argued the point. Instead she is unofficially exiled, why? 

Because her relationship with Alicent was deteriorating, something you deny is part of the source material. 

im rereading the book,  I never once get the vibe that its exile, and Never even close to Rhaenyra being bitter or harsh. 

 

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It's all over the book. The narrator mentions their rivalry with every chance, even the artwork does it. It is why Alicent spreads rumors about Rhaenyra's children being bastards, and it's why there is an ongoing cold war between them at court (before Viserys forces the issue). 

 

In the books, the rivalry is between the children directly, not Rhaenyra and Alicent, and all mentioning of the blacks and greens are retroactive to the Dance itself.  Even the actual naming traces back to an anniversary tourny, where they clearly had no animosity at each other at the time.

 

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I gave you the quote again. The book is written by Martin who introduces concepts important to the story. 

And the show is arguing the opposite. Which is my point, the show took MORE liberties with the source material to water down Alicent's character than my suggestions would have. 

Again, neither book or show is actually doing what you claim. 

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

You're removing any agency from Alicent's character. She is best friends with Rhaenyra, not Otto. She has ten years to figure out Rhaenyra who from what we see offers Alicent's children de facto immunity. 

There is no defacto immunity since Rhaenyra never threatens them in book or show. 

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

So Alicent rejecting the offer isn't her being afraid Rhaenyra might kill her kids, it is her being either jealous or power hungry, something Otto didn't scare her into believing. 

NO, its simpler than that, she doesnt want her trueborn daughter to marry a bastard.  You are over thinking this. 

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Do you see the problem? In Episode 5 Otto pressures Alicent by arguing her children are in danger. In Episode 6 Alicent shows no more interest in keeping her kids safe and want the throne for reasons of jealousy or power. 

Why do you believe this. Give me the actual line in the show that leads you to believe this .

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

And having Alicent take the throne out of fear for her children would be more in line with the source material than having her take it out of jealousy. Which is my point, all of this is a creative decision meant to water down the story's potential. 

No, its again, you making up some weird head canon making it about power, when in the actual show, the only argument ever made is her believing Rhaenyra will kill her trueborn sons, thats it. 

jealousy is never once conveyed, we have behind the scenes comments on video from the Executive producer which specifically says, Alicent finally listens to her father, How are you trying to pretend this is about jealousy ??????

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Aemond isn't Alicent. 

Cool, but if thats your argument, it destroys every one of your Rhaenyra arguments since she didnt order any of those early deaths.  Besides, Luke isnt the first death and Alicent is clearly fine with all of them. 

 

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

You can figure out what page it was when Viserys orders Rhaenyra away from court. The thing about F&B is that it is not a novel, nor does it provide motivations. We only know what happens, adding to the character psychology isn't deviating from the book. 

we already went through this. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by dsjj251