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[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion


Ran
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I like how they are showing Viserys ageing with every episode. 

Rhaenyra could have just hashed it out face to face with Laenor, when he said he is going to be a husband... she should have just said, look I need you to pretend you are dead and get lost. 

I was soo expecting Demon to be in the boot, killing off Qarl... instead it was Laenor escaping with Qarl. He is not even in disguise. This whole plan is bad. Poor Rhaenys and Corlys. 

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21 minutes ago, IFR said:

I can't say I agree with your take. Rhaenyra and Daemon had an innocent person murdered just so they could marry. It wasn't the person the audience are familiar with, but that hardly matters.

Rhaenyra has been more diplomatic in her later years because, due to her very foolish and short-sighted decision to have bastard children, she's always at risk of being called out for her infidelity, with potentially terrible consequences to follow.

Daemon has throughout the show been one of the more villainous characters. He hasn't lately done something extremely horrible like murder a spouse, but I certainly don't think of him as a moral character.

Alicent has, through bitter years of isolation and learned mistrust, gone from a sweet and innocent character to someone much darker. But I think this has been a very good and clear evolution. Her motivations are understandable (even if they aren't agreeable).

Maybe Alicent's actions recently are making her 'less good' than Rhaenyra, but I don't think any side is remotely portrayed as good. I really like watching these characters, but I find them all morally despicable.

Anyway, the season's not over yet. There's plenty of time for Daemon and Rhaenyra to do horrible things. And of course the start of season two will be very interesting with how Blood and Cheese is handled.

This is all pretty forwarding in that we have only these episodes to judge them by, not any future incident, and so far it has been the show’s prerogative to give us a side to root for at the expense of the other. 
 

Do you not take issue with the destruction of 5 episodes of character development? You can rationalize it and explain away the shifts in characterization but the show did not do that, your headcanon did. 
 

It was the show’s choice to make Alicent unforgivably evil, it was a creative decision not the result of years of bitterness. 
 

It takes contradicting F&B to make Alicent bitter and jealous since that was Rhaenyra’s role. If fans had an easy time hating the greens in the book, why would they make it easier in the show (especially after what they established in the first five episodes). 
 

Nothing Rhaenyra has done since episode 5 reflects badly on her, not even having bastards. Her detractors are the one instigating the Dance, not her. 
 

Mentions of a nameless guard being killed just show how decisive she is and how brilliant her planning is, the guard’s death does not however give any reason for people to be repulsed by her. 
 

Daemon is given sympathy while Cole and Larys are just awful to the max. That is how this show is playing itself, and it’s lazy to manipulate us into choosing the ‘right’ answer.

14 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Where those the bunch of kids that ganged up to fight him while outnumbering Aemond by 4v1?  The Strong boys and Laena's children were also the ones that took a swing at Aemond before Aemond swung on them.  They were the ones that created the violent situation.  Aemond being a little smug doesn't justify their behavior anymore than Aemond would have been justified for punching Jace in the face after the pig stunt. 
 

No one watching that cares that a bunch of kids were standing up to a bully. In this world punches are innocent compared to rape and murder. This is not a Disney show.

14 minutes ago, Minsc said:

 

Why is that?  How is she shown as any of those things?  Does she do anything to try to do consol either Aemond or Alicent in that scene despite the fact that her son just took out one of Aemond's eyes.  Rather she is very much trying shift the focus and anger over onto the maimed children to protect her lie.

Just because she does comfort the guy who tried to kill her kid doesn’t mean she wants them tortured. 
 

I mean come on, why are we debating this. If Rhaenyra asked for Aemond to be tortured why didn’t Alicent even respond to that? This isn’t a serious position and is only being argued to try and find some example where Rhaenyra is put in a bad light.

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Re R & D, I could understand why book-Daemon had a certain appeal to him . he was supposed to be charming , dangerous (a good trait in this world) , funny and competent which is understandably attractive to an adventurous dragon lady Laena and a 14 yr old princess Rhaenyra who sees herself undermined by her stepmother and will later be trapped in a loveless marriage . show-Daemon , on the other hand , isn't fun to be around , isn't charming , is explicitly incompetent in Stepstones and other matters and doesn't reach out to Rhaenyra when she is lonely and friendless (show-Rhaenyra was still friends with Alicent) . so it became unintentionally hilarious that Rhaenyra thinks having Daemon by her side will be helpful to her in the future ! I hope they go the route that she'll finally see that Daemon isn't the man to rely on and keep him out of her bed after B&Ch . leading him to go to Mysaria . oh ! and their wedding sure looked ominous with all their kids upset and in mourning black. 

 

 

Re Aegon . I honestly don't see much wrong with the guy yet . (he is 13) and it'll be a big stretch to see him congratulate Aemond in killing Luke , considering that in the previous episode he seemed to like Luke and Jace way better than his own siblings. 

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5 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Do you not take issue with the destruction of 5 episodes of character development? You can rationalize it and explain away the shifts in characterization but the show did not do that, your headcanon did.

I don't view it as the destruction of 5 episodes of character development, I view it as the consummation of 5 episodes of character development. I find it completely believable and natural for younger Alicent to transition to older Alicent. All the set up required to make it work was performed. I don't think I had to do any rationalization to make it work for me.

It's like the time skip in The Godfather. At one point Michael Corleone was a war hero who was starting to get his hands dirty for the family, and then next we see him he's fully into the game. Every step does not need to be spelled out because enough set up was observed to easily infer the rest of the character development. I feel the same way with Alicent. It is absolutely believable that she became what she did based on her early characterization.

11 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It was the show’s choice to make Alicent unforgivably evil, it was a creative decision not the result of years of bitterness.

I think Alicent is more sympathetic in the show than the book. By quite a bit. I think Daemon is way less sympathetic in the show than the book. Rhaenyra is roughly the same.

13 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Nothing Rhaenyra has done since episode 5 reflects badly on her, not even having bastards. Her detractors are the one instigating the Dance, not her.

I strongly disagree here. Her decision to have bastards was profoundly stupid. She is extremely short-sighted and self-serving, as Alicent points out. Every character but Viserys sees this, and I as an audience member see this. Her whole plot to get rid of her loyal husband to marry her uncle was emotionally damaging to a lot of people and caused the death of an innocent person - and was done completely out of her blithe, selfish desire.

I think Rhaenyra is fun to watch, but I don't find her remotely likeable.

17 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Mentions of a nameless guard being killed just show how decisive she is and how brilliant her planning is, the guard’s death does not however give any reason for people to be repulsed by her.

Nothing about this scheme is brilliant. It's two self-involved individuals behaving selfishly and with total disregard for anyone but themselves.

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Daemon is given sympathy while Cole and Larys are just awful to the max. That is how this show is playing itself, and it’s lazy to manipulate us into choosing the ‘right’ answer.

Well, I find them all to be awful, so I wasn't aware there was a right answer. 

Anyway, we are clearly viewing this show differently. You say you're watching one side get whitewashed and another side painted villainously; the show I'm watching is a bunch of horrible people I'd never want to know in real life doing horrible things in an entertaining fashion.

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Why not declare Laenor's boys bastards and marry Baela to Aemond and Rhaena to Daeron?

Even if they thought Daemon murdered him (evidently they didn’t), they can’t betroth the girls to Aemond and Daeron because they are Daemon’s children and live with Daemon.

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2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

He did what he had to do to make sure the attacks against Rhaenyra and his adopted children stopped.

No, that's BS excuse. There's no way that his leaving would stop the attacks against Rh and the children. And it won't in the show, Vaemond's speech was quite eloquent. He will probably loose his tongue in the next episode.

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I really liked the scene where Alicent attacks Rhaenyra. It must be one of the best acted scenes since the earlier seasons of GOT. When I watched the scene in the trailers and previews it seems like it could came out as forced, but it developed really organically. Oh, and the kid actors are amazing, specially Aemond's. It's sad this is his last episode.

I don't like them leaving Laenor alive like that, it doesn't make much sense, unless they pretend to kill him later in Season 2. I was already suspecting they are not going to cast all the Dragonseeds or even Daeron, this kind of confirms it to me. 

And I'm not getting what they are trying to do with Cole these last three episodes. He's killed a noble in public, then insulted both the Queen and the City's Watch Commander last episode, and finally he's tried to...attack? The Princess Rhaenyra by the Queen's Consort orders. It's not very logical or rational at all for him to be doing this.

EDIT: Olivia Cooke is amazing as Alicent. I've seen some people say her character is too different than the earlier version, but I think the contrary actually: her development is beautifully written. Her speech about sacrifice and duty when she tries to stab Lucerys is on point.

Edited by Ingelheim
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16 minutes ago, IFR said:

I don't view it as the destruction of 5 episodes of character development, I view it as the consummation of 5 episodes of character development. I find it completely believable and natural for younger Alicent to transition to older Alicent. All the set up required to make it work was performed. I don't think I had to do any rationalization to make it work for me. 
 

It’s not a question of believability. In real life set up can have no pay off. 
 

Someone can train for 10 years to be a master ninja and then suffer an accident in real life. In a narrative that would be bad writing because it retroactively undos all that development. 
 

You can rationalize reasons why in 10 years Alicent becomes a jealous monster (at odds with the book) but the show doesn’t show us that, it expects us to buy into this miserable character so it’s easier to root for Rhaenyra.

16 minutes ago, IFR said:

 

I think Alicent is more sympathetic in the show than the book. By quite a bit. I think Daemon is way less sympathetic in the show than the book. Rhaenyra is roughly the same. 
 

Pre-time jump yes. But after episode 5 they made her worse than the book like having her not only be power hungry but jealousy and petty. And you know confirming Larys to be a psychopath and having Alicent still work with him.

16 minutes ago, IFR said:

I strongly disagree here. Her decision to have bastards was profoundly stupid. She is extremely short-sighted and self-serving, as Alicent points out. Every character but Viserys sees this, and I as an audience member see this. Her whole plot to get rid of her loyal husband to marry her uncle was emotionally damaging to a lot of people and caused the death of an innocent person - and was done completely out of her blithe, selfish desire. 
 

Ned stark made dumb decisions, but people still rooted for him. Rhaenyra making poor decisions does not compromise the moral righteousness the show is bestowing upon her team. 
 

The bastards were dumb or self serving. She had to marry Laenor and Laenor was unable to perform. Rhaenyra tried but she need heirs to protect her claim. 
 

None of the audience is going to begrudge her that. They will begrudge Alicent for using it as an excuse for war.

16 minutes ago, IFR said:

I think Rhaenyra is fun to watch, but I don't find her remotely likeable.

Nothing about this scheme is brilliant. It's two self-involved individuals behaving selfishly and with total disregard for anyone but themselves. 
 

The show makes it clear that Rhaenyra wanted to make it work with Alicent. Alicent is the one who refused the match that would have provided security for her children because she is desperate to take Rhaenyra down. 
 

Knowing the greens are after her, Rhaenyra and the good guys (Daemon, Laenor, and Qarl) team up to get what everyone wants. 
 

Rhaenyra will have a Valyrian marriage beyond dispute and Leanor gets to live happily ever after with his lover in a more accepting part of the world.

16 minutes ago, IFR said:

 

Well, I find them all to be awful, so I wasn't aware there was a right answer.  

You can think that but the show is clear with it’s bias contradicting both the book and itself.

16 minutes ago, IFR said:

 

Anyway, we are clearly viewing this show differently. You say you're watching one side get whitewashed and another side painted villainously; the show I'm watching is a bunch of horrible people I'd never want to know in real life doing horrible things in an entertaining fashion.

Yeah so why are people rooting for Rhaenyra. Ask anyone and they’ll tell you Rhaenyra is better than Alicent. 
 

But more to the point, the show made deliberate changes like removing Rhaenyra’s entitlement, sarcasm, and lack of diplomacy while adding to Alicent jealousy (not from the books), and incessant desire for power.

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2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

F&B was a bias retelling which this show decided to expand upon and add psychological nuance to. Which they did for the first five episodes then erased all said character development to make it easier for fans to root for the good guys. 
 

And they removed from Rhaenyra’s character stuff from the books that would have made her look bad like her jealousy towards Alicent, her bitterness, etc. 

The calm, thoughtful, and diplomatic Rhaenyra post time skip is a creation of the show, not the book. 
 

As was making Alicent team up with a Larys she knows burned down a castle with his own family and attack the princess with knife trying to literally stab her and just be an all around pathetic villain.


Where in the book is Rhaenyra jealous of  Alicent ? I remember one line about Rhaenyra growing plump from child birth and Alicent still being skinny, but that is literally bias of retelling by the writer as well, but even that is 3rd person and doesnt make sense as Alicent and Rhaenyra in the books havent been in the same room in like 3 years.

Rhaenyra being diplomatic fits with the book, remember, she doesnt start the war, Aemond/Aegon/Alicent do. 

The only thing in your argument that actually is true is that they make Alicent more forth coming earlier with the attack on Rhaenyra. She didnt even want Larys to burn Harrenhal, so I dont count that as even being part of her arch. 

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18 minutes ago, DMC said:

I wasn't aware when Theon killed and burned those two kids to fake Bran and Rickon's death it was "whitewashing" his character.

As if burning children to scare a bunch of peasants into submission is the same as offing a guard so that two lovers can live happily ever after and Rhaenyra can better defend her claim against a verifiable psycho. 
 

I mean what is there to debate? Rhaenyra is no longer sarcastic and entitled like in the previous episode or jealous and bitter like in the book.
 

She attempts to bridge any gaps between her and Alicent, while Alicent is determined for war. And also physically  violent, and jealous, and in cahoots with a murderous psychopath (Larys) she knows murdered his own family. 
 

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8 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:


Where in the book is Rhaenyra jealous of  Alicent ? I remember one line about Rhaenyra growing plump from child birth and Alicent still being skinny, but that is literally bias of retelling by the writer as well, but even that is 3rd person and doesnt make sense as Alicent and Rhaenyra in the books havent been in the same room in like 3 years. 
 

book quote: “Childbirth exacted a toll on the princess; the weight that Rhaenyra gained during her pregnancies never entirely left her, and by the time her youngest boy was born, she had grown stout and thick of waist, the beauty of her girlhood a fading memory, though she was but twenty years of age. According to Mushroom, this only served to deepen her resentment of her stepmother, Queen Alicent, who remained slender and graceful at half again her age.”  

The show reverses this to make Alicent bitter and Jealous of Rhaenyra in case people became confused about who to root for.

 

 

8 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:



Rhaenyra being diplomatic fits with the book, remember, she doesnt start the war, Aemond/Aegon/Alicent do.  
 

The books in no way establishes Rhaenyra by the time of the dance being calm and diplomatic. 
 

That was a show invention to make it easier to root for them and against the greens.

8 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 



The only thing in your argument that actually is true is that they make Alicent more forth coming earlier with the attack on Rhaenyra. She didnt even want Larys to burn Harrenhal, so I dont count that as even being part of her arch. 

Well, you’d have to point out where my arguments are objectively false before throwing language like that around. 
 

As for Larys, the fact that she accepts working with a cold blooded murder who admitted to butchering his family shows how she has just embraced the villain role so people don’t have to think too hard.

Edited by butterweedstrover
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Really good episode. Made the previous one better and set up the kids storylines for the future. The bit from Aemond claiming Vhagar through Alicent cutting Rhaenyra was awesome tv imo. 
Laenors change didn’t bother me as much as I thought it would. Still would have rather had Daemon commit that murder than the Rhea Royce one but it’s nice to see a somewhat happy ending for a character. I do think he’s an asshole for abandoning his parents and dragon but I don’t think it will be that big a deal to have Addam bond with a different dragon than Seasmoke or have Laenor die off screen. Would be disappointed if they cut Addam and brought Laenor back though. Guess we will see how they handle it. 

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9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

As if burning children to scare a bunch of peasants into submission is the same as offing a guard so that two lovers can live happily ever after and Rhaenyra can better defend her claim against a verifiable psycho. 
 

I mean what is there to debate? Rhaenyra is no longer sarcastic and entitled like in the previous episode or jealous and bitter like in the book.

It's not a perfect comparison, no, but it's an illustrative one.  Rhaenyra going to Daemon and their conversation therein is totally depicted as evil machinations because, well, it is.  You acting like the show does not emphasize that with the music and Daemon acting all shady (I swear to god any time he puts on a hood you need to run!) is your own biased interpretation, not what we all saw.  

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8 hours ago, Ran said:

What if someone in Essos recognizes Laenor and sends word?

I think that's what Daemon line in the convo with Quarl was trying to cover for the audience. There are places in Essos where they do not care about names (like Targaryen, or Velaryion) just how much gold you spend. When I heard it, I was confused. No one would give a damn about Quarl's name. He's a nobody...

I am assuming they have an understanding where Leanor will write to Rhaenyra/Daemon for money if the need arises. Also it's clear that even so Leanor shaved his silver hair and will keep shaving it. The only real trait that could name him as blood of the Old Valyria. I get that there is always a risk but show seemed to address this, however imperfect may seem in our eyes. Again, even with all precautions nothing is truly foolproof but death and Laenor decided that is not for him...

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19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

book quote: “Childbirth exacted a toll on the princess; the weight that Rhaenyra gained during her pregnancies never entirely left her, and by the time her youngest boy was born, she had grown stout and thick of waist, the beauty of her girlhood a fading memory, though she was but twenty years of age. According to Mushroom, this only served to deepen her resentment of her stepmother, Queen Alicent, who remained slender and graceful at half again her age.”  

The show reverses this to make Alicent bitter and Jealous of Rhaenyra in case people became confused about who to root for.

 

 

The books in no way establishes Rhaenyra by the time of the dance being calm and diplomatic. 
 

That was a show invention to make it easier to root for them and against the greens.

Well, you’d have to point out where my arguments are objectively false before throwing language like that around. 
 

As for Larys, the fact that she accepts working with a cold blooded murder who admitted to butchering his family shows how she has just embraced the villain role so people don’t have to think too hard.

Mushroom is not a reliable source.  And, Alicent, in the books, is a highly unsympathetic woman.

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35 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

You can rationalize reasons why in 10 years Alicent becomes a jealous monster (at odds with the book) but the show doesn’t show us that, it expects us to buy into this miserable character so it’s easier to root for Rhaenyra.

The show has done a pretty good job of detailing Alicent's complaints: she follows the rules and it gets her nowhere; her children follow the rules, it gets them nowhere.  She does her duty to her husband, to her family and to the realm and goes nowhere.  Rhaenyra gets everything for doing so, so little.  

Alicent makes this plain to Larys Strong- that while her Father would not be unbiased at least somebody would be biased towards her.  The subtext is unmistakable - everyone else is biased towards Rhaenyra.  

The show also illustrates her very, very well founded concern that so long as Aegon exists, he is an open and obvious threat to Rhaenyra- and not just her claim.  Even after she would be presumably coronated, Aegon's mere existence would draw those hoping to use him for advantage and, possibly, install him as King.  And Rhaenyra knows this and if she does she may, one day, want to remove such an open and obvious threat.  Her son, as she sees it, is in danger. 

Now she is presented with something that literally gets people killed (though I grant you the show has not don ea great job of detailing this) namely that laying hands on a royal gets you killed.  Aemond was attacked by four kids (and he was attacked first- the younger Velarion girls goes at him first) at or close to his age; he defended himself and was ultimately rewarded by losing an eye.  Now, subtext- the universe these people live in, eye wounds can be fatal; infection is real and these people are a multiverse away from antibiotics (though bread mold exists and the masters use it).  The son will also have difficulty using a sword or anything else.  People die for this or at least are punished.

Viserys- who I love - instead ignores the attack in the real attempt to avoid an actual civil war; Viserys bemoans the people surrounding him saying they need to be a family.  Its a wish shared by literally nobody else in that room.  

And he refuses to punish Rhaenyra's children.  

Just like Viserys refused to punish Rhaenyra for having the least subtle bastards ever.  

Her child is wounded; wounded by Rhaenyra's bastards; wounded by Rhaenyra's unpunished bastards who are teetering the realm on civil war.  

Alicent who follows the rules; Rhaenray who does not.  Aicent whose son is maimed and Rhaenyra's whose sons are not. 

Alicent who has true born sons of the crown and Rhaenyra who does not. 

Alicent sees this as an injustice which, mince no words, it certainly is.  And she takes up the blade not as a mad-woman but as somebody who sees that doing anything else would be submitting her children to an ongoing injustice. And its no accident that she takes Viserys' blade-metaphorically King his ability to do justice from his very hand.  

35 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Knowing the greens are after her, Rhaenyra and the good guys (Daemon, Laenor, and Qarl) team up to get what everyone wants. 

Just jumping in here- Qarl is barely presented at all; Laenor is actually presented in a variety of different ways, including weak, indecisive and flighty - he is always trying to get away and not do his duty.  When he complains "I should have been here" Rhaenyra pokes at him, "Those should be our House words."  That is not a compliment. 

And Daemon? Daemon killed his first wife... because.  His second wife dies... he barely speaks to their children after (the show specifically cut a scene out where he hugs them, most likely because they wanted to show the distance between them).  Daemon is kind of a dick.  And the show is not shy about showing that.  I do not think the show is sympathetic to him just as I do not think its anti-Alicent.

35 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The bastards were dumb or self serving. She had to marry Laenor and Laenor was unable to perform. Rhaenyra tried but she need heirs to protect her claim. 
None of the audience is going to begrudge her that. They will begrudge Alicent for using it as an excuse for war.

I disagree.  Not only has the show detailed the angers of having bastards as heirs, but the books- all of them - make specific examples of how wrong this practice is.  Bastardy is an excuse and vehicle for disenfranchised lords, knights and other powerful people to gain real advantage in the realm.  I think the show could have been clearer on this, but the universe these people occupy has been very frank about this and it reflects poorly on her.  

Rhaenyra has been monumentally selfish for not having legitimate children and not being as obvious in her inability to conceive with her Husband.  The show could do a better job of exemplifying that, but its still there. 

35 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yeah so why are people rooting for Rhaenyra. Ask anyone and they’ll tell you Rhaenyra is better than Alicent. 

Because there are two sides to this and some people want her to succeed just as some people want Alicent to.  I see Alicent as similar to Stannis -- somebody who followed the rules and does what needs to be done and watches while others do whatever they want and get ahead.  

I think that people tend to see what they want to see- I am guilty of that to.  So I get some of the ideas coming out.  However, I think the show has done a much better job of balancing this out and I think it makes the show far more enjoyable.  

Edited by Rockroi
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