[Spoilers] Episode 107 Discussion

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

51 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Did you read my list of their similarities?

Yeah, but their reasons for lying about having children out of wedlock are very different, for example.

[butterweedstrover]

5 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

You have every right to that opinion.  But you are using "ifs" as an excuse to not be pinned down on a subject and change your argument when needed.  

What are you talking about? If Alicent truly feared for her children she would not behave in the way she is behaving. 

That is the show contradicting itself to water down her character. Do you really believe Alicent in the show (of the last two episodes) is afraid for her children. 

5 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

no. 

Yes.

5 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Mushroom is not a source. You can pretend he is all you want, but no one takes that seriously.  

He is, otherwise he wouldn't have been added in. 

5 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

im rereading the book,  I never once get the vibe that its exile, and Never even close to Rhaenyra being bitter or harsh.  

It doesn't matter what you think, that is what is happening. Viserys is sending her away. Even if it was her idea (which we don't know) that is publicly what it comes off as. So why did it happen?

5 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

 

In the books, the rivalry is between the children directly, not Rhaenyra and Alicent, and all mentioning of the blacks and greens are retroactive to the Dance itself.  Even the actual naming traces back to an anniversary tourny, where they clearly had no animosity at each other at the time. 

You get this isn't a real history book? It's a drama. George is writing as if they have a rivalry not because future events retroactively color the past, because that is what he wants readers to believe. 

If the book is telling us they had a fraught relationship in court, then that is what is. 

5 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Again, neither book or show is actually doing what you claim.  

The show insinuates Alicent is Jealous of Rhaenyra. 

The book does not. 

Do you get it?

5 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

There is no defacto immunity since Rhaenyra never threatens them in book or show.  

Again, Rhaenyra doesn't have to threaten the children, in fact the threat might not even come from her. But if they were married then that would certainly go a ways to mitigating that threat. 

5 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

NO, its simpler than that, she doesnt want her trueborn daughter to marry a bastard.  You are over thinking this.  

Great, so is Alicent afraid for her children or is she against bastards on the throne? What is her motivating factor in the show?

5 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Why do you believe this. Give me the actual line in the show that leads you to believe this . 

Literally everyone on this thread is talking about how Alicent in the show is jealous of Rhaenyra. About how Rhaenyra has more freedoms to behave in such a way and how the rules are unfair towards her. 

I mean if you don't think Alicent is jealous, and don't think Rhaenyra poses a threat to her children, what are Alicent's motives? 

16 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

No, its again, you making up some weird head canon making it about power, when in the actual show, the only argument ever made is her believing Rhaenyra will kill her trueborn sons, thats it.  

Yeah, and then the show contradicts itself by having Alicent not show even a slight concern for her children. When she physically attacks Rhaenyra she denounces her for being above the rules, not posing a threat to her children. 

If Alicent believed that, she might be sympathetic. Instead she is just obsessed with bringing Rhaenyra down for no apparent reason besides jealousy or power. 

16 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

jealousy is never once conveyed, we have behind the scenes comments on video from the Executive producer which specifically says, Alicent finally listens to her father, How are you trying to pretend this is about jealousy ?????? 

That is what everyone else is saying, not just me. But if it isn't jealousy, and it isn't about her kids, then what? Because that last two episodes did nothing to prove Alicent is concerned for her children which is why she rejects every olive branch which might protect them.

16 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Cool, but if thats your argument, it destroys every one of your Rhaenyra arguments since she didnt order any of those early deaths.  Besides, Luke isnt the first death and Alicent is clearly fine with all of them.  

The threat Rhaenyra poses to Alicent's kids doesn't come from Aemond killing Luke. I mean what are you talking about? The threat they pose is if Rhaenyra ascends and people reject her, they'd look to Aegon after which point Rhaenyra would have to kill them, not that she would want to. That was Otto's argument. 

16 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

we already went through this. 

You pretend the source material is one way and yet can't be pinned down. You are all over the place using this forum as cover. 

So do you disagree with the vast majority of people here and think show Alicent isn't jealous? Well that is something you should explain rather than assuming it is fact. 

I mean what is her motivation according to you? Have you even said it? 

[RhaenysBee]

Things I liked: 

Aegon telling Viserys that everybody know’s Rhaenyra’s children are not Laenor’s. Best character moment since forever. Here’s this hormonally overloaded, spoiled teenager, who is presented as unskilled at fighting, disrespectful to everything and everyone, caring about nothing but wine and women because that’s what he thinks being an adult means. Then his little brother puts the blame on him instead of their mother, and instead of whining, shifting the responsibility back or onto the mother, he stands straight and says it into his father and king’s face in front of a roomful of people that everybody sees what’s going on. Wow. 

Dragon riding was cool, Vhaegar’s grief was relatable. 

Driftmark is beautiful and Rhaenys had the first good looking female hairstyle for the funeral that I’ve seen on the show. I kinda liked her quiet chat with Corlys too though it reiterated the same thing they’ve discussed before in a similar scene. 

Kid fight. 

I liked Viserys’s handling of the kid fight and I liked the mass scene. Conveyed a lot about every single character present. 

Things I didn’t like: 

Rhaenyra. 

Daemon and Rhaenyra’s scene was not dark (because perhaps hbo heard the complaints that these scenes are impossible to follow?) but making it a low contrast grey dusk scene didn’t help. Looked unflattering and was as difficult to follow. I didn’t like how that was shot at all. 

What exactly does this show want me to think about king’s guard? How useless are these people? 

And while I enjoyed the kid scene, these little people pouring all the adult drama around them into a playground fight and showing that they are little savages who will kick and cut one another was a beautiful mirror of the adult world around them, it just raises for issues about how this court even works. Aren’t there guards or servants that would notice that the kids are gone? Do we remember when Ned had a search party looking for Arya because they did notice she was gone? Do we remember that Septa Whatshername existed and her purpose was to look after the Stark girls? Don’t these children have servants/governesses/guards/literally anybody looking after them? They are not that old, especially Rhaenyra’s kids and they are all members of the royal family. It’s so unlikely and unrealistic and odd. 

I also didn’t like that even though a lot happened this episode and the plot is moving at light speed, I was kinda bored. I paused the episode halfway to have a nap. I just don’t like or care about any of the characters which cripples my investment. After all the effort throughout episodes 3-5 with young Alicent, I thought the show had me because there was this one character I rooted for. Then she was gone and replaced with a different version and once again, I don’t have anybody I like or relate to or root for. Except Viserys but what’s to root for there? 

Speaking of, the show kinda forgot about this skin condition? I’m okay without seeing rotting fingers but did that illness just stop or heal? In episode five he collapsed TWICE. Now he seems to be ailed with old age only. I couldn’t tell for my life how old he is of course because Daemon doesn’t age and nor does Otto Hightower (what a joke), so suppose he should be around 60 and sickly which adds another ten years to his physical appearance and condition? We dropped his sessions with the maesters because… reasons, so we don’t know how he’s holding up or how he’s still alive. Very confusing visually and narratively. 

Also if Laenor was in on this plot, which I can only assume he was, he’s a shit person too. Seriously, who am I supposed to like in this show? 

 

[EggBlue]

4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I din't know, I think she's definitely more like Cersei.

Rhaenyra had always felt more like a Catelyn Tully to me . 

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t know if you guys watched the BTS,

what? I thought BTS was a band!

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

but the kid who played Aemond was so darn cute. He also posted on Instagram about how happy he was that people liked the episode, and how he was worried people were going to hate him 

this kid was definitely the highlight of ep7 for me .

 

[BlackLightning]

4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yeah, but their reasons for lying about having children out of wedlock are very different, for example.

No more different than the differences between Cersei and her bastards and Rhaenyra and her bastards.

The key here is that legally they are Laenor's children. The concept of adoption is, as we can see, way beyond the capacity of the Westerosi...much less adoptive succession. Their inability to understand and respect the concept does not erase or invalidate it. Corlys has seen the world thrice over and so it is not completely surprising that he would believe that his adopted grandchildren are still his grandchildren and that he would pass that type of thinking on to his son.

But yes, every single person whose opinion/perspective/voice matters in this situation (Corlys, Rhaenyra, Laenor, Harwin and Viserys) all maintains that they are all the children of Laenor Velaryon and Rhaenyra Targaryen. And I'm almost positive that Laena (who also would be directly impacted and involved in this matter as a rival heir to Corlys) would also confirm this.

And Viserys, being the ultimate authority in Westeros, says that the matter is an open-and-shut case. So, this matter is an open-and-shut case.

 

That's the major difference between Rhaenyra and Cersei.

And Alicent's problems with this rather sketchy arrangement (and yes, it is sketchy) are, frankly, irrelevant as they are none of her concern. But let's say that they were her concern. Her problem with this whole situation is not a matter of preserving peace and righteousness (unlike Cersei who had set out to do what she did on purpose to spite Robert and all of House Baratheon and seize control of the entire realm). Alicent's problems come from ignorance, envy and an irrational fear. Unlike Alicent, Ned, Stannis and Jon were all approaching the situation as a matter of the king and the entire kingdom is in terrible danger. Which was truth...only Jon got murdered before he could spill the beans for some unrelated reason and Ned and Stannis were too cowardly and incompetent to move more decisively.

[BlackLightning]

5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

And having Alicent take the throne out of fear for her children would be more in line with the source material than having her take it out of jealousy. Which is my point, all of this is a creative decision meant to water down the story's potential. 

I don't know

It is entirely possible for someone to feel more than one emotion at once and be motivated by both. Not only is it possible but it happens all of the time.

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t know if you guys watched the BTS, but the kid who played Aemond was so darn cute. He also posted on Instagram about how happy he was that people liked the episode, and how he was worried people were going to hate him 

Yeah, I loved the kids in these last two episodes. I wish we could have gotten more time with all of them. And I so want to see Prince Daeron, my favorite Green.

[dsjj251]

5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

 

You get this isn't a real history book?

You had the nerve to write that after you have been Fan Fic/Head Canon-ing your way through an argument ??????? LOL

[dsjj251]

5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

He is, otherwise he wouldn't have been added in. 

GRRM has done entire interviews  on unreliable narrators, and we are literally told Mushroom cant possibly know some of these things as he was in another city when events happened or on another island. 

5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

It doesn't matter what you think, that is what is happening. Viserys is sending her away. Even if it was her idea (which we don't know) that is publicly what it comes off as. So why did it happen?

Cool, quote it.  then, something like, I count 8 different users replying to you, not one has agreed when that subject has come up. 

5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

You get this isn't a real history book? It's a drama. George is writing as if they have a rivalry not because future events retroactively color the past, because that is what he wants readers to believe. 

LMFAO at the bold, idk why you would even post that line here when you are arguing a 3rd person, retrospective of jealousy, but go on. 

Anyways, its a history book, then entire thing is written in retrospective except for the first person accounts themselves, by 2 maesters who awere born at least 50 years after the dance. 

5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

The show insinuates Alicent is Jealous of Rhaenyra. 

The book does not. 

Do you get it?

I understand your argument. 

I disagree with it and saying you are wrong. 

Do you understand that not agreeing with you is not the same as not understanding you ?

5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Literally everyone on this thread is talking about how Alicent in the show is jealous of Rhaenyra. 

WHO ?????

5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I mean if you don't think Alicent is jealous, and don't think Rhaenyra poses a threat to her children, what are Alicent's motives? 

Yeah, and then the show contradicts itself by having Alicent not show even a slight concern for her children. When she physically attacks Rhaenyra she denounces her for being above the rules, not posing a threat to her children. 

If Alicent believed that, she might be sympathetic. Instead she is just obsessed with bringing Rhaenyra down for no apparent reason besides jealousy or power. 

That is what everyone else is saying, not just me. But if it isn't jealousy, and it isn't about her kids, then what? Because that last two episodes did nothing to prove Alicent is concerned for her children which is why she rejects every olive branch which might protect them.

The threat Rhaenyra poses to Alicent's kids doesn't come from Aemond killing Luke. I mean what are you talking about? The threat they pose is if Rhaenyra ascends and people reject her, they'd look to Aegon after which point Rhaenyra would have to kill them, not that she would want to. That was Otto's argument. 

You pretend the source material is one way and yet can't be pinned down. You are all over the place using this forum as cover. 

So do you disagree with the vast majority of people here and think show Alicent isn't jealous? Well that is something you should explain rather than assuming it is fact. 

I mean what is her motivation according to you? Have you even said it? 

No, it is just you

[butterweedstrover]

26 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

GRRM has done entire interviews  on unreliable narrators, and we are literally told Mushroom cant possibly know some of these things as he was in another city when events happened or on another island.  
 

 

Cool, quote it.  then, something like, I count 8 different users replying to you, not one has agreed when that subject has come up. 

LMFAO at the bold, idk why you would even post that line here when you are arguing a 3rd person, retrospective of jealousy, but go on. 

Anyways, its a history book, then entire thing is written in retrospective except for the first person accounts themselves, by 2 maesters who awere born at least 50 years after the dance. 

I understand your argument. 

I disagree with it and saying you are wrong. 

Do you understand that not agreeing with you is not the same as not understanding you ?

WHO ?????

No, it is just you

Ok, ok dsjj. You are on another level. You shift the discussion from show to book when it suits you.  
 

So let me try one more time:
 

What is Alicent’s motivation to take the throne in THE SHOW? 

 

[dsjj251]

18 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

What is Alicent’s motivation to take the throne in THE SHOW? 

 

I answered this a while ago and you even responded to it 


 

Quote

Show motivation : Hubert wants Aegon on the thrown and convinces Otto of the same, Otto then scares Alicent into believing Rhaenyra will kill her children. 

 New episode tonight updates this. 

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, dsjj251 said:

 

I answered this a while ago and you even responded to it 


 

 New episode tonight updates this. 

So wait, after saying for pages Rhaenyra is no threat to Alicent’s children you believe Alicent thinks that because something Otto said at one time? 
 

And this episode kills that theory since the only thing the show could do to give her a reason is use there BS prophecy. 
 

So again, after calling Alicent a villain, you think show Alicent (after episode 5) is doing this out of legitimate fear for her children?

[dsjj251]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

So wait, after saying for pages Rhaenyra is no threat to Alicent’s children you believe Alicent thinks that because something Otto said at one time? 

 

 

 

DUDE seriously , how are you not understanding the very simplistic concept that people can believe something to be true AND Be wrong about that thing

Lets use a real world example. there are people who genuinely believe the world is flat, they are wrong 

Alicent genuinely believes her father and thinks Rhaenyra could have killed her children, she is wrong. 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

And this episode kills that theory since the only thing the show could do to give her a reason is use there BS prophecy. 

 

It doesnt "kill the theory", its a reset. 

She now believes its prophecy/Viserys wish for Aegon to rule. 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

So again, after calling Alicent a villain, you think show Alicent (after episode 5) is doing this out of legitimate fear for her children?

You understand both of those things can and are true at once right ?????? You can fear something and do horrible things to make sure that thing doesnt come true . 

Seriously man, at this point, im actually hoping you are trolling,  because how on earth have you made it this far in life without understanding dichotomy  or mutual exclusivity ?