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Faith of the Seven - What's going on?


Ring3r

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Apart from the Drowned God religion (which is a huge mystery to me) and the Faith of the Seven, the other major religion in Planetos seems to actually have magic behind them.

Fire priests can raise the dead and control fire.  Worshippers of the Old Gods can possess and control bodies, and see through the eyes of any living thing.  Priests of the Faith of the Seven....can....say nice things, I guess?

So, what is going on with this religion and why has it nearly completely taken over all of Westeros?  It was brought by the Andals, which means it was founded somewhere in Essos....but it's not prevalent in Essos anymore.  The back-story of the religion is basically that King Hugor was crowned by the Father, and then the other 6 aspects of God pitched in, giving him a fertile wife, lots of warrior sons, armor for them, etc. (pretty good deal, how do I sign up?)

Is there an in-world historical basis for this religion, something that traces back to the Dawn Age?  It's obviously GRRM's mirror of catholocism, and the way it replaced the Old Gods in most of Westeros is a direct reference to how Christianity spread and replaced pagan beliefs in Europe.  Is that the only reason GRRM included the Faith?  To reference the real world and lend the overall story some familiarity?  Or is there something else going on?

Is there anything magical behind the Faith?

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There is also a possibility that Stranger is source of magic. Or followers of that aspect of 7 could use magic. But any worshipers of S would be hated and so have to hide their possible allegiance to Stranger or they would be hunted down by followers of other aspects of 7.

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Every place has gods. They have different names. But some seem the same: the god of death: The Stanger, the Lion of Night, the Great Other, the Black Goat, the Many-Faced God. Even the Drowned God?

Then, there are other gods. They seem different of this death god. More like life gods: The Maiden-Made-of-Light, the Great Shepherd, the 7 (minus the Stranger)...Maybe the Old Gods are these same gods. Or they are not gods, but CotF's spirits, still living in weirwoods

Except the Old Gods, they seem inactive. The 7 at least, seem to exist just in men's imagination.

R'hllor seem different. More Shadow than Light. More Fire than Life.

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17 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Maybe the Old Gods are these same gods. Or they are not gods, but CotF's spirits, still living in weirwoods

That's definitely what I think.  But there's still a magical basis....greensight and warging.

There just doesn't appear to be any equivalent in the Fot7.

Maybe the lack of magic is due to the religion having developed in a land that really didn't have any genetic or magical ties to either the GeotD or the Children, and so their culture simply didn't have ANY magic, which then got reflected in their religion?

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In my opinion, there is likely no magic associated with The Faith of the Seven. As it mirrors Christianity in its practices and pageantry, it also has converted many who followed The Old Gods like Christianity did with innumerable religions spanning the Roman empire. Many pagan beliefs are where real world ideas of magic stem from and were also largely lost after conversion, just like the loss of belief in magic so prominently featured throughout  ASOIAF.

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Faith of the Seven comes across as a man-made religion.  Whereas the Old Gods and Rhllor are backed up by magic.  The Seven create their own mysteries and the convoluted multiple personalities is an attempt to explain the unexplainable.  It is an attempt by ancient people to find answers to what they do not understand and end up making a convoluted mess of it.  The priests can then claim to understand the mysteries and people pay them to explain it.  From there it provides comfort and assurances to help ease the suffering of the masses. 

1 hour ago, Christovos Snow said:

In my opinion, there is likely no magic associated with The Faith of the Seven. As it mirrors Christianity in its practices and pageantry, it also has converted many who followed The Old Gods like Christianity did with innumerable religions spanning the Roman empire. Many pagan beliefs are where real world ideas of magic stem from and were also largely lost after conversion, just like the loss of belief in magic so prominently featured throughout  ASOIAF.

 

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There could well be. It describes the Swords as sorcerers at some point.

Magic used to be a lot more common. Maybe it was mostly forgotten, except to certain sects within the faith and it is nothing most priests would concern themselves about.

Thoros himself doesn't consider what he does as magic, but rather R'hlor acting through him, so we could have a similar attitude to adherence to the seven. 

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40 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

There could well be. It describes the Swords as sorcerers at some point.

Magic used to be a lot more common. Maybe it was mostly forgotten, except to certain sects within the faith and it is nothing most priests would concern themselves about.

Thoros himself doesn't consider what he does as magic, but rather R'hlor acting through him, so we could have a similar attitude to adherence to the seven. 

Most people seem to think the FotS is boring and non-magical so I hope to see something to the contrary. To be honest, if I lived in there, I would be following the Faith (or perhaps the Old Gods if I was in the North but not in Whiteharbour). The other religions, namely the Drowned God and R'hlorr, really don't appeal to me...

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7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Most people seem to think the FotS is boring and non-magical so I hope to see something to the contrary. To be honest, if I lived in there, I would be following the Faith (or perhaps the Old Gods if I was in the North but not in Whiteharbour). The other religions, namely the Drowned God and R'hlorr, really don't appeal to me...

Though I do think it is non-magical, it is definitely not boring. I imagine something similar to what happened to the Great Sept of Baelor in the television show will happen in the books. I honestly feel FOT7 is meant to parallel Christianity in the way it affects Westeros, and seeing it start to crumble is likely a reflection of how Christianity itself eventually splintered into countless, unique denominations.  

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23 hours ago, Ring3r said:

That's definitely what I think.  But there's still a magical basis....greensight and warging.

The greenseers, the CotF, the human with the right blood, living in weirwoods, rivers, and natural elements. And retaining some magic. That seems likely, even certain.

But is this the Old Gods? I think not. The Old Gods sent the Prince that was Promised. Gave the promise and the prophecy thousands of years ago. Will bring the Long Night. IMO, this is beyond magic.

I believe there is a continuity of natural to supernatural creatures and powers. Each with their limits. From green dreams and  precognition, to skin change, to the power of healing, to call (bind) shadows and doing various tricks. To cheat death. To dragon that breath fire and Firewyrms that live in fire. To Others and Shadows.

Maybe the The Lion of Night and The Maiden-Made-of-Light are also magical entities. Just a BIG BIG step above. Or they are the Old Gods (with maybe some others) that no one in Westeros remembers.

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3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The greenseers, the CotF, the human with the right blood, living in weirwoods, rivers, and natural elements. And retaining some magic. That seems likely, even certain.

But is this the Old Gods? I think not. The Old Gods sent the Prince that was Promised. Gave the promise and the prophecy thousands of years ago. Will bring the Long Night. IMO, this is beyond magic.

I believe there is a continuity of natural to supernatural creatures and powers. Each with their limits. From green dreams and  precognition, to skin change, to the power of healing, to call (bind) shadows and doing various tricks. To cheat death. To dragon that breath fire and Firewyrms that live in fire. To Others and Shadows.

Maybe the The Lion of Night and The Maiden-Made-of-Light are also magical entities. Just a BIG BIG step above. Or they are the Old Gods (with maybe some others) that no one in Westeros remembers.

I'm not sure what I think of this idea from a lore point of view but it sort of sounds like you're describing GRRM's version of the different levels of spirits in Tolkein.  The Valar and Maiar.  It would thematically make sense and I know GRMM loves Tolkein....it would be like him to have that level of stuff happening but for the humans and such to simply not know about it.

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19 hours ago, Ring3r said:

it would be like him to have that level of stuff happening but for the humans and such to simply not know about it

Yes.

But we will know more of the Others by the end. And I think the Old Gods are a mystery that call for answers too. Same for R'hllor. What Euron is talking about? What happened at Summerhall? How prophecies work? The one about the PtwP. Who sent one direwolf to each of Ned's children? And a special one for Jon.

I hope most of these will have an explanation by the end. If GRRM finishes this story.

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On 10/3/2022 at 11:02 AM, Ring3r said:

Is there an in-world historical basis for this religion, something that traces back to the Dawn Age?  

A close look at the main symbols and lore of the Seven as well as textual hints from the World Book suggest the origins of the Fot7 reach back to the Dawn Age with major turning points in the belief system occuring around the time of the Bloodstone Emperor and again after the Long Night. For example, the legend of the GEotD references one definite sky god, the Maiden-made-of-Light, a sun goddess, which could account for the prominence given by the Seven to stars, crystals and light. The Lion-of-Night may also have been a sky god, a moon god or alternatively, a god of the underworld. These two gods had a son, the God-on-Earth, the first ruling Emperor of the Dawn. The belief that the Seven once walked the earth could have its roots in these god-emperors of the Dawn who really "walked the earth" in ancient times. The multicoloured rainbow emblem of the Faith could also alude to these god-emperors who were "gemstone emperors," a metaphor for gemstones of many colours descended from the sun, the Maiden-Made-of-Light. The goddess herself is the symbolic crystal that births godly children that are symbolic colours of the rainbow. The follow-up Golden Empire of Yi Ti also uses this colour coding for its ruling Emperors (the scarlet, indigo, jade-green emperors and so on). The many coloured bricks that characterize Meereen are also part of this symbolism. 

What I find convincing is the reference to ancient beliefs in horned lords and mother goddesses buried within the Seven faces of the god of the Faith. The tripple goddess - maiden, mother and crone as well as the tripple god represented by the father, warrior and smith are a clear reference to the Wiccan belief system rooted in the ancient lore of the horned lord and mother goddess. Garth Greenhand who came to Westeros from Essos is clearly a horned lord archetype. The horned lord is of course the mother goddess's consort, together they ensure the fertility of the land. That the god-emperors of the Dawn figured out how to secure fertility is suggested by the peace and prosperity of the first god-emperors reign. Garth magically promoting fertility in Westeros then suggests that the god-emperors of the Dawn engaged in fertility magic.  I'm certain they did and that they eventually abused that power as evidenced by the reign of the Bloodstone Emperor. 

According to legend, the Bloodstone Emperor was the first High Priest of the Church of Starry Wisdom. His era could represent a turning point in the belief system of the Dawn, shifting from paganism to an early form of religion (Church = reference to Christianity). The BSE worshipped a stone that fell from the sky, practiced sorcery and other dark arts, magic. Parallels to the Fot7 here include the Starry Sept in Oldtown, "starry wisdom" represented by the crown (worn on the head, the seat of wisdom) with seven stars that Hugor of the Hill receives. This "starry wisdom" is also alluded to by the "seven wanderers," presumably planets, sacred to the Faith. Another reference to sky gods and starry wisdom can be found in the titles of the Mother and Father, also referred to as "the Mother Above and the Father Above." The Swords of the Faith Militant are also rumored to have included sorcerors and dragonslayers in their ranks. 

So, given these inferences, I speculate that the original founders of the Faith were in fact supporters of the Bloodstone Emperor and later on opponents of Azor Ahai. Their hero was the one who opposed Azor Ahai and lost and was later personified by Hugor of the Hill. This faction that would later be known as the Andals was hounded out of their former territory for their support of the Darkness, forcing them to migrate far from their original home and inspiring the prophecy promising Hugor and his  descendants great kingdoms in a foreign land. Note that while Azor Ahai forged a renowned sword, Lightbringer, the Smith of the Faith wrought a suit of iron armour for each of Hugor's strong sons. 

 To conclude, I think as the Faith developed, some elements of the founding beliefs were incorporated into the theology while others aspects were rejected. There remains a belief in the supernatural but a rejection of the diabolical magic as practiced by the BSE and the people of the Dawn. The Stranger for instance, he "from far places" is the Mother's "dark child," a memory of the BSE or even the Lion of Night. There is this element of atonement that is part of the credo of the Faith (Baelor the Blessed's walk of atonement to Dorne, Cersei's walk of atonement) that suggests a distancing and rethinking of the ancestral role of the Andals, perhaps with a return to the original positive values of the "Mother and Father Above"  - the sky gods, love, mercy, justice, punishment (MmoL and LoN). Rainbow colours adorn the "white flag" of the Faith, a symbol of peace or truce. The author possibly also invokes the meaning of the rainbow in biblical terms, the rainbow symbolizing God's promise to never again destroy the world by flood. 

 

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On 10/5/2022 at 3:52 PM, Evolett said:

A close look at the main symbols and lore of the Seven as well as textual hints from the World Book suggest the origins of the Fot7 reach back to the Dawn Age with major turning points in the belief system occuring around the time of the Bloodstone Emperor and again after the Long Night. For example, the legend of the GEotD references one definite sky god, the Maiden-made-of-Light, a sun goddess, which could account for the prominence given by the Seven to stars, crystals and light. The Lion-of-Night may also have been a sky god, a moon god or alternatively, a god of the underworld. These two gods had a son, the God-on-Earth, the first ruling Emperor of the Dawn. The belief that the Seven once walked the earth could have its roots in these god-emperors of the Dawn who really "walked the earth" in ancient times. The multicoloured rainbow emblem of the Faith could also alude to these god-emperors who were "gemstone emperors," a metaphor for gemstones of many colours descended from the sun, the Maiden-Made-of-Light. The goddess herself is the symbolic crystal that births godly children that are symbolic colours of the rainbow. The follow-up Golden Empire of Yi Ti also uses this colour coding for its ruling Emperors (the scarlet, indigo, jade-green emperors and so on). The many coloured bricks that characterize Meereen are also part of this symbolism. 

What I find convincing is the reference to ancient beliefs in horned lords and mother goddesses buried within the Seven faces of the god of the Faith. The tripple goddess - maiden, mother and crone as well as the tripple god represented by the father, warrior and smith are a clear reference to the Wiccan belief system rooted in the ancient lore of the horned lord and mother goddess. Garth Greenhand who came to Westeros from Essos is clearly a horned lord archetype. The horned lord is of course the mother goddess's consort, together they ensure the fertility of the land. That the god-emperors of the Dawn figured out how to secure fertility is suggested by the peace and prosperity of the first god-emperors reign. Garth magically promoting fertility in Westeros then suggests that the god-emperors of the Dawn engaged in fertility magic.  I'm certain they did and that they eventually abused that power as evidenced by the reign of the Bloodstone Emperor. 

According to legend, the Bloodstone Emperor was the first High Priest of the Church of Starry Wisdom. His era could represent a turning point in the belief system of the Dawn, shifting from paganism to an early form of religion (Church = reference to Christianity). The BSE worshipped a stone that fell from the sky, practiced sorcery and other dark arts, magic. Parallels to the Fot7 here include the Starry Sept in Oldtown, "starry wisdom" represented by the crown (worn on the head, the seat of wisdom) with seven stars that Hugor of the Hill receives. This "starry wisdom" is also alluded to by the "seven wanderers," presumably planets, sacred to the Faith. Another reference to sky gods and starry wisdom can be found in the titles of the Mother and Father, also referred to as "the Mother Above and the Father Above." The Swords of the Faith Militant are also rumored to have included sorcerors and dragonslayers in their ranks. 

So, given these inferences, I speculate that the original founders of the Faith were in fact supporters of the Bloodstone Emperor and later on opponents of Azor Ahai. Their hero was the one who opposed Azor Ahai and lost and was later personified by Hugor of the Hill. This faction that would later be known as the Andals was hounded out of their former territory for their support of the Darkness, forcing them to migrate far from their original home and inspiring the prophecy promising Hugor and his  descendants great kingdoms in a foreign land. Note that while Azor Ahai forged a renowned sword, Lightbringer, the Smith of the Faith wrought a suit of iron armour for each of Hugor's strong sons. 

 To conclude, I think as the Faith developed, some elements of the founding beliefs were incorporated into the theology while others aspects were rejected. There remains a belief in the supernatural but a rejection of the diabolical magic as practiced by the BSE and the people of the Dawn. The Stranger for instance, he "from far places" is the Mother's "dark child," a memory of the BSE or even the Lion of Night. There is this element of atonement that is part of the credo of the Faith (Baelor the Blessed's walk of atonement to Dorne, Cersei's walk of atonement) that suggests a distancing and rethinking of the ancestral role of the Andals, perhaps with a return to the original positive values of the "Mother and Father Above"  - the sky gods, love, mercy, justice, punishment (MmoL and LoN). Rainbow colours adorn the "white flag" of the Faith, a symbol of peace or truce. The author possibly also invokes the meaning of the rainbow in biblical terms, the rainbow symbolizing God's promise to never again destroy the world by flood. 

 

There we go!  I knew there had to be some symbolism in it cuz there is in basically everything GRRM does.  Good read.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well, there have to be some exceptions to magic-using religions. I do think they have sinister means at their disposal, however. Those crystals around their neck which the septons keep fingering put me in mind of some kind of hypnotic power. Perhaps they are able to exert subtle control over people in this way. Actually, I think part of the protective magic which lies within The Wall is down to its properties as a giant crystal:

Quote

On days like this the Wall shimmered bright as a septon's crystal, every crack and crevasse limned by sunlight, as frozen rainbows danced and died behind translucent ripples. On days like this the Wall was beautiful.

The ripples in the ice also remind me of the ripples in Valyrian steel, which is rumoured to use blood magic in its forging. So the crystals for me are definitely a source of their 'power' if not magic.

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