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Worst to best: Eddard, Jon, Robb


Daeron the Daring
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4 minutes ago, sifth said:

How are you committing adultery, when neither Robb nor Jeyne are married? Honestly it was just a one night stand, between two teens. Something quite common place in this world and even more common, when it comes to lords in this world.

Although the legal definition of adultery differs in nearly every legal system, the common theme is sexual relations outside of marriage, in one form or another. (Wikipedia)

It is adultery (and dishonorable in traditonal, medieval settings) if you have sex with someone you are not married to. You don't have to be married to commit adultery, nor does the other person.

Edited by Daeron the Daring
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1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Although the legal definition of adultery differs in nearly every legal system, the common theme is sexual relations outside of marriage, in one form or another. (Wikipedia)

It is adultery (and dishonorable in traditonal, medieval settings) if you have sex with someone you are not married to. You don't have to be married to commit adultery, nor does the other person.

Not in this world it isn't. Brothels are legal and whoring is common place. No one would care if the King of the North had a one night stand and Robb was too stupid to realize that.

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6 minutes ago, sifth said:

Not in this world it isn't. Brothels are legal and whoring is common place. No one would care if the King of the North had a one night stand and Robb was too stupid to realize that.

But Robb didn't marry Jeyne because people would've cared about him leaving Jeyne Westerling dishonored or pregnant. It's because he didn't want to make her suffer for something he is responsible for too. This, for him, is about protecting Jeyne, not himself.

And banging whores isn't something you'll get to go to heaven. Not even in ASOIAF.

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Robb was a traitor, as lord of Winterfell his clear cut mission was to swear fealty to KL. The boy had no honor, loyalty only owed to himself, not to his coercive Freys not to his murderous Karstarks.  

The Young Wolf didn't play by old rules, his bravery, nobility and goodness redefined this phase of Westerosi politics and his butchering now defines the next.

 

His father was different. A slave to his honor, a victim to his loyalty. The ancien phase of Westeros is owed to Eddard and his war on a drunkards behalf. Then and later, war murder and carnage washes over Ned Stark and although he's the only man to mend the realm his code chains him from setting the world right.

 

Jon? He wears his chains tighter then a maester. But for the good of the realms of men and the small slave crew of crows he commands, I hope he'll follow his brave dishonorable brothers lead and not that of his negligent honorable father into saving this world and creating a better one for tomorrow .

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2 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

But Robb didn't marry Jeyne because people would've cared about him leaving Jeyne Westerling dishonored or pregnant. It's because he didn't want to make her suffer for something he is responsible for too. This, for him, is about protecting Jeyne, not himself.

And banging whores isn't something you'll get to go to heaven. Not even in ASOIAF.

I'm not even sure they believe in heaven, in ASOAF, it's not really ever talked about.

Well than Robb is an idiot for not realizing he was being honey potted. I know there's some subject to debate whether or or not Jeyne was in on the scam, but I firmly believe she was. Did she come to love Robb after the fact, possibly, but at the time, I believe she was acting on her mothers command and Robb was too stupid/young/horny, to see the forest from the trees.

I mean it was war and one of the key rules of war is, never sleep with the enemy, lol

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8 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Surely nothing wrong is with making someone "suffer a loss of social standing" then.

But it is also dishonourable to break the marriage pact. The example of Eddard with Ashara shows that he places marriage pact first and so would avoid Robb's mistake of loosing Frey support. There isn't one good choice but when you look at the bigger picture I think Robb's choice was worse. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Robb should have put the need of the whole cause for the Freys above his own personal desire or Jeyne, who is only one person.

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3 minutes ago, sifth said:

I'm not even sure they believe in heaven, in ASOAF, it's not really ever talked about.

The Seven believes in heaven, and believers of the Old Gods mention hell, so there might be a counterpart to that.

5 minutes ago, sifth said:

Well than Robb is an idiot for not realizing he was being honey potted.

He was. But that's another matter.

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But it is also dishonourable to break the marriage pact.

That's the moral dilemma I talked about. That he takes a blow, an L, a black patch on his honor both ways.

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The example of Eddard with Ashara shows that he places marriage pact first and so would avoid Robb's mistake of loosing Frey support.

We don't know if Eddard and Ashara ever had sex, or that he was the father to her stillborn daughter. But even if Ned is the person in question, Ashara was considered to had been dishonored, which is an L for Ned's honor too.

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

There isn't one good choice

That's the point.

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

but when you look at the bigger picture I think Robb's choice was worse.

It was the worse strategical choice, but as you yourself said it before, there isn't one good choice. Maybe not even a better one (If we choose to look at morality only).

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20 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The Seven believes in heaven, and believers of the Old Gods mention hell, so there might be a counterpart to that.

 

Yea, but Robb doesn't believe in the Seven, he's an old gods man and I don't recall the afterlife for the olds gods ever being brought up in the series.

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Robb is better than Jon. If he or Ned takes the first place is hard to tell, but Jon has more issues than the others. Maybe it's because of their social status and the prejudice that reflects on Jon.

Robb never treated Jon like a bastard or a threat even with Catelyn on his ear,

On the other hand Jon already confessed with Stannis that he wanted winterfell and the dream about him killing Robb shows a lot of issues on his part.

Robb was the one that gave Theon the most fair treatment among all the Starks. Maybe this is on Theon, but also show how quickly Robb could let go of prejudice towards bastards, Ironborns and he also spared a willdling.

I don't see neither Jon or Robb making the mistake that Ned did and telling Cersei, I also don't see Robb or Jon killing Lady to satisfy Robert.

I don't see Ned making the Robb mistake of marrying Jeyne, but I can see Jon doing it under the same conditions.

I don't see Ned or Robb making the mistakes of Jon at the wall that lead him to be stabbed.

For me is Robb > Ned > Jon.

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13 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

I don't see Ned or Robb making the mistakes of Jon at the wall that lead him to be stabbed.

For me is Robb > Ned > Jon.

I mean Robb very much made a similar mistake to Jon, when it came to the stabbing. Robb was not killed by his enemies, but by his own men, who went over to the other side, because of poor management.

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8 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yea, but Robb doesn't believe in the Seven, he's an old gods man and I don't recall the afterlife for the olds gods ever being brought up in the series.

Brutha, it was a joke.

Meant to mean that adultery is still amoral, brothels or not.

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15 minutes ago, GZ Westeros said:

Jon is next worst. In the books, he betrays Ygritte, and in the show, he does nothing to prevent the coming war that dooms everyone in KL.

I don't know if Snowhead really betrayed Ygritte. He had explicit orders to do whatever it took to integrate himself with the Wildlings so he could find out what they were up to. He only left Ygritte after she killed a completely innocent man and even then he didn't take any action against her. Ygritte chose to attack the wall, she knew the consequences and died. As far as I remember Snowhead never swore any vows to Ygritte but he did swear vows to the Watch. So if he sticks with Ygritte he's betraying the Watch.

19 minutes ago, GZ Westeros said:

Ned is the worst person here. He put his entire family at risk to serve an incompetent king, and then got himself killed for no reason other than pure pride. 

This is a mark against him, he's willing to throw innocent lives away for honour/rights with regards to supporting Stannis. And he doesn't seem to care whether Stannis would be a good king or not.

8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

On the other hand Jon already confessed with Stannis that he wanted winterfell and the dream about him killing Robb shows a lot of issues on his part.

To be fair it's not like he acted on those desires, practically everyone has hidden immoral desires, at least Snowhead was willing to admit to his rather than pretending they don't exist. This is a step in the right direction for his psychological health.

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5 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean Robb very much made a similar mistake to Robb, when it came to the stabbing. Robb was not killed by his enemies, but by his own men, who went over to the other side, because of poor management.

Roose and Walder are also much more oportunistic and deceifuls than Bowen Marsh. Bowen told Jon to his face that he saw Jon as a traitor and Jon still kept him around.

Robb only went into the twins after the guest right and even then he did not trusted them... he trusted his army to keep him safe, he was just very much wrong:

“Robb,listen to me . Once you have eaten of his bread and salt, you have the guest right, and the laws of hospitality protect you beneath his roof.”

Robb looked more amused than afraid. “I have an army to protect me, Mother, I don’t need to trust in bread and salt. But if it pleases Lord Walder to serve me stewed crow smothered in maggots, I’ll eat it and ask for a second bowl.”

If Walder had said anything as direct as Bowen Marsh told Jon I would have to agree with you. But it was not the case.

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2 minutes ago, GZ Westeros said:

And he also so ineffectively supports Stannis. He and his family should have been out of the city as soon as he was attacked by Jaime, but he stayed for some reason and got himself killed, got Sansa abused, and got Robb and Catelyn to risk their lives in a war they had no chance of winning. And the decision to leave initially placed the entire castle in Robb and Catelyn's hands: not a fair arrangement or one that would have worked out.

My issue aside from that is that he insists on Stannis being king purely because it's his right, without even considering the effect it would have on others. What does he think Stannis will do with Cersei's children? Just let them go like he did? Does he care that Stannis wants to punish a load of people even though they were pardoned by Robert? He straight up gets told that Stannis' ascent will mean war but he's just like: "Muh honour. The throne is his by rights."

Edited by Craving Peaches
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6 minutes ago, GZ Westeros said:

He and her were beyond their oaths at that point, I feel. I guess I put love above honor, and protecting the lives of the ones you love over whatever order you subscribe to, and him betraying that makes him worse than Robb to me. 

I think that Ygritte betrayed Jon first if they can even be considered to have betrayed each other. She murdered an innocent man in cold blood and then attacked Jon. 

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12 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Roose and Walder are also much more oportunistic and deceifuls than Bowen Marsh. Bowen told Jon to his face that he saw Jon as a traitor and Jon still kept him around.

Robb only went into the twins after the guest right and even then he did not trusted them... he trusted his army to keep him safe, he was just very much wrong:

“Robb,listen to me . Once you have eaten of his bread and salt, you have the guest right, and the laws of hospitality protect you beneath his roof.”

Robb looked more amused than afraid. “I have an army to protect me, Mother, I don’t need to trust in bread and salt. But if it pleases Lord Walder to serve me stewed crow smothered in maggots, I’ll eat it and ask for a second bowl.”

If Walder had said anything as direct as Bowen Marsh told Jon I would have to agree with you. But it was not the case.

You act like Walder Frey has a reputation for being honorable and fair. Even at that time the guy had a reputation for being dishonorable and treacherous. He did nothing at all to help his Tully Lords, before Cat made the marriage pact and did even less when it came to helping Robert. Yea, this is clearly a man who can be fully trusted, same with Roose, who's entire family history is skinning people alive. 

I hate Tywin with a passion, but he was right about one thing, "when men lack discipline, the blame falls on their commander". This is a harsh lesson that both Robb and Jon learned.

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Just now, sifth said:

I hate Tywin with a passion, but he was right about one thing, "when men lack discipline, the blame falls on their commander". This is a harsh lesson that both Robb and Jon learned.

I agree but Tywin can't really talk because it's not like his men were disciplined either. They were burning and looting all over the place.

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