Worst to best: Eddard, Jon, Robb

[sifth]

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree but Tywin can't really talk because it's not like his men were disciplined either. They were burning and looting all over the place.

Yea, but he ordered them to do it. One of Tywin's final lines in the first novel is him telling Kevan to order The Mountain, Amory Lorch and the Brave Companions to loot and burn as much of the Riverlands as possible. He even asked Tyrion, if he wanted his clansmen to join in. Tywin wanted chaos in the Riverlands, to divide up Robb's army.

Edited October 4, 2022 by sifth

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, sifth said:

Yea, but he ordered them to do it. One of Tywin's final lines in the first novel is him telling Kevan to order The Mountain, Amory Lorch and the Brave Companions to loot and burn as much as the Riverlands as possible. He even asked Tyrion, if he wanted his clansmen to join in. Tywin wanted chaos in the Riverlands, to divide up Robb's army.

I know he order Brave Companions and Gregor and Co. to raid but I think there is also mention of generic Lannister soldiers/'lions' who have deserted and are raiding. So I don't think there's great discipline there either.

[sifth]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

I know he order Brave Companions and Gregor and Co. to raid but I think there is also mention of generic Lannister soldiers/'lions' who have deserted and are raiding. So I don't think there's great discipline there either.

If so, I don't recall. Though I haven't read the second novel in a while.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

If so, I don't recall. Though I haven't read the second novel in a while.

I think it's in one of the Arya chapters. The villagers mention Lannister deserters raiding and pillaging.

Found some quotes.

Quote

"Did you kill them?"

"Would I tell you if I did?" The man spat. "Likely it were wolves' work, or maybe lions, what's the difference? The wife and I found them dead. The way we see it, the place is ours now."

"Where is this wife of yours?" Ser Cleos asked.

Quote

"Just a boy the wife and me took in. We had two sons, but the lions killed one and the other died of the flux. 

Quote

"It's worse than bad, I hear. Wolves and lions both, and bands of broken men preying on anyone they can catch."

Quote

But when the lions came through they took all our wine and milk and honey, slaughtered the cows, and put our vineyard to the torch. 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Craving Peaches

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

I don't see Ned or Robb making the mistakes of Jon at the wall that lead him to be stabbed.

For me is Robb > Ned > Jon.

Ummm... Remind me again how did Robb die and why did it happen?

Robb did far worse mistakes than Jon, where Jon's mistakes where Jon's mistakes were out of necessity, Robb's weren't.

Two examples and how they could or should have been handled.

Confining Catelyn to her quarters was a great show of weakness, sending her to silent sisters was a great alternative.

Beheading Rickard Karstark was a terrible mistake which had the most common alternative we've seen in the series, being sent to Night's Watch.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Confining Catelyn to her quarters was a great show of weakness, sending her to silent sisters was a great alternative.

I don't get how Catelyn was even able to free Jaime in the first place. He should have been under better guard.

[Hugorfonics]

3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ummm... Remind me again how did Robb die and why did it happen?

Roose murdered him in cold blood after his son conquered Robbs kingdom.

Do you honestly believe Walder wasnt preparing to betray Robb once the war took it's first turn?

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Robb did far worse mistakes than Jon, where Jon's mistakes where Jon's mistakes were out of necessity, Robb's weren't

Killing Janos arresting Karstark and sending a king to track a princess is not necessary. Logical yes, but not necessary.

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Confining Catelyn to her quarters was a great show of weakness, sending her to silent sisters was a great alternative.

Lol umm.. what? Kings locking up their mom is bad p.r and also really terrible 

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Beheading Rickard Karstark was a terrible mistake which had the most common alternative we've seen in the series, being sent to Night's Watch.

Robb needed to show force, prove to the world that Robbs an honorable king.  He took the public relations way out instead of sweeping it under the rug like Tyrion did with Slynt.

[Hugorfonics]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't get how Catelyn was even able to free Jaime in the first place. He should have been under better guard.

Kings mom. She got pull, it's borderline treason to disrespect her. Then Brienne knows how to pack a punch 

[sifth]

36 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think it's in one of the Arya chapters. The villagers mention Lannister deserters raiding and pillaging.

Found some quotes.

 

Yea, we have no way of knowing if any of the people in your quotes were part of Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch or the Brave Companions groups. Possibly it was a little of all 3.

[Ring3r]

I think they're all basically flush.

From a decision making and political POV, including personal and political decisions, all three have screwed up.  Ned screwed up in Kings Landing because he couldn't imagine anyone forsaking honor, Jon screwed up with Ygritte and underestimating his opposition on the wall, and Robb screwed up with Jeyne and the nature of the Freys.

From a personal morals POV, I think Ned is on top, followed closely by Jon, and then Robb.

Adjusting for wisdom and maturity, they all did the best they could with what they had.  It just wasn't enough with any of them.

Thematically, it's very on-form.  For all 3 of them...the mistakes they made were all errors of putting love before duty.  That's the Stark weak-point (and they're all the more endearing for it).  Ned loved his sister, his wife, and his daughters, and all of his mistakes stem from decisions made to try and protect them.  Jon loves his family, and loved Ygritte, and all his mistakes stem from that.  Robb loved Jeyne, and we know how that turned out.

Love is the death of duty, eh?

 

That's one of the major themes of this whole story....when I think about it, it makes me wonder just how powerful the original Lightbringer was.  He sacrificed his love for a weapon to save the world.

[Only 89 selfies today]

8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Which of the three characters above do you think is the worst person of the tree? Which one is the best?

I find it hard to line them up, as there isn't really a clear decisive factor among them. So there you have it: Ned, Jon and Robb.

Now you may think Robb is a clear third in this race, but really? What did he do in his campaign that the other two wouldn't have done the same? I feel like we have to imagine them in each other's boots.

 

 

Ned had the most decency of the three.  The two boys are despicable.  Robb and Jon are oath breakers.  Jon is a treasonous commander of the watch.  Robb took Walder's help and then had the nerve to disrespect the man.  

[Daeron the Daring]

3 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Ned had the most decency of the three.  The two boys are despicable.  Robb and Jon are oath breakers.  Jon is a treasonous commander of the watch.  Robb took Walder's help and then had the nerve to disrespect the man.  

I guess I envy you for having such an easy time dealing with this question.

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, sifth said:

Yea, we have no way of knowing if any of the people in your quotes were part of Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch or the Brave Companions groups. Possibly it was a little of all 3.

The fact that they are referred to as lions suggests they were wearing Lannister livery, which Gregor and his men wouldn't've been because they were in disguise when raiding, and I don't think the brave companions would be either. It sounds like Lannister deserters to me.

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Jon is a treasonous commander of the watch.

Snowhead did not betray the watch. He was trying to do what he thought was best for everyone, to save them from hordes of undead, before Marsh came along and ruined everything.

[Daeron the Daring]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Snowhead

Punchbag Prince is a better nickname thou.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Daeron the Daring said:

Punchbag Prince is a better nickname thou.

It is but 'Snowhead' really makes me giggle. I don't know why though.

[Daeron the Daring]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

It is but 'Snowhead' really makes me giggle. I don't know why though.

I like Snowhead too.

The best one I heard is Hoe Joe (developed around S8), but you have to be hungarian to understand that. (Basically the hungarian word for snow is "hó" which sounds exactly like the word hoe, thus the name)

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I like Snowhead too.

The best one I heard is Hoe Joe (developed around S8), but you have to be hungarian to understand that. (Basically the hungarian word for snow is "hó" which sounds exactly like the word hoe, thus the name)

There should be a 'Funny Nicknames for Jon Snow' thread. I need time to explore all the possibilities.

[sifth]

14 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

The fact that they are referred to as lions suggests they were wearing Lannister livery, which Gregor and his men wouldn't've been because they were in disguise when raiding, and I don't think the brave companions would be either. It sounds like Lannister deserters to me.

Gregor and his crew very much were in disguise at the start of the war, but not so much by the events of ACoK's, when Robert and Ned are well dead and Tywin is the Hand of the Kings again. When Arya is captured by The Mountain, his banner is in full display, near the bodies of people he is torturing and killing. Lorch used his banner as well, when he attacked Yoren and his crew.

Edited October 5, 2022 by sifth

[Corvo the Crow]

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Do you honestly believe Walder wasnt preparing to betray Robb once the war took it's first turn?

Do you think Walder not forcing the marriage to be consummated then and there a mistake? Of course he was going to betray him if the tides have turned, he kept his options open as much as he could. Resisting Robb in the first place was certain doom no matter how many casualties he would've inflicted on him, he was going to end up worse, by aiding him he bought himself sometime also the pretext of aiding his liege lord, Tullys.

 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Killing Janos arresting Karstark and sending a king to track a princess is not necessary. Logical yes, but not necessary.

These aren't the mistakes I was talking about though, and killing Janos wasn't even a mistake btw, and a necessity as well

In fact he should've done it sooner. Even if he hadn't tried to kill Jon before, he was not only being insubordinate but was also being disrespectful to his elected LC. Had he been allowed to live, more and more brothers would get ideas whether they were in team Janos or not. 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol umm.. what? Kings locking up their mom is bad p.r and also really terrible

And ummm... This was exactly Robb did in the novels, so, yeah, it was such bad p.r. that it encouraged Rickard Karstark. My suggestion was silent sisters. Also I would like to hear your suggestion. Is it better to let your mother go around disobeying you, the king and underminig your authority? These are feudal people, if you haven't noticed so far. Perhaps the single correct thing Joffrey has done as a king was when Cersei slapped him telling her what she did was punishable by deah(was this in the books or just the show, can't recall) and she'll never do it again.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Robb needed to show force, prove to the world that Robbs an honorable king.  He took the public relations way out instead of sweeping it under the rug like Tyrion did with Slynt.

He needed to show force. Sending Rickard to NW was both a show of force and an act of mercy at the same time and was a just action by Westerosi standards. By a single action he would've showed the world that he was a just and powerful ruler and not incapable of mercy. Sending someone to NW isn't sweeping it under the rug. Tyrion could just as easliy have killed Sylnt and was in his right to do so but didn't. Sending Slynt to Watch doesn't have much benefits for Tyrion but neither does executing him while on the other hand sending Karstark to Watch has it's benefits for Robb while killing him is the actual opposite.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Corvo the Crow