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Worst to best: Eddard, Jon, Robb


Daeron the Daring
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3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Do you think Walder not forcing the marriage to be consummated then and there a mistake?

No. Thats a strange thing to do, not romantic at all (Cat didnt think it was romantic with Ned at least)
Good for Robb, hes not really tied down. Good for Walder, hes not either. Good for the teenaged girl not getting raped.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Resisting Robb in the first place was certain doom no matter how many casualties he would've inflicted on him, he was going to end up worse, by aiding him he bought himself sometime also the pretext of aiding his liege lord, Tullys.

Walder played his hand correctly there, yea

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

These aren't the mistakes I was talking about though

So then what?

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Had he been allowed to live, more and more brothers would get ideas whether they were in team Janos or not. 

Well as it stands he was murdered by Janos' friends, so if the plan was murdered, then theres no mistakes here.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And ummm...

lol, sorry.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This was exactly Robb did in the novels, so, yeah

Thats true, but it was temporary and under the guise of seeing her father off to the seventh level of hell (eh, maybe 5th)

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

it was such bad p.r. that it encouraged Rickard Karstark.

Woah, madness and cruelty encouraged Karstark, those two kids werent Jaime.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

My suggestion was silent sisters. Also I would like to hear your suggestion. Is it better to let your mother go around disobeying you, the king and underminig your authority? These are feudal people, if you haven't noticed so far.

The whole Riverlands is bowing to her now, shes one of the smarter ones of asoiaf. Robbs plan wasnt that bad, although sending her back to the the land of ghosts sounds fucked up too, but I agree having moms along just to complain about not making peace, giving the throne to Jon, and eating your veggies sounds annoying. Its a delicate situation, but the silent sisters has to be the worst option. Like I have nothing but loath for the NW, but at least they can talk!

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Perhaps the single correct thing Joffrey has done as a king was when Cersei slapped him telling her what she did was punishable by deah(was this in the books or just the show, can't recall) and she'll never do it again.

I doubt thats in the book, although it makes sense that its in the show, its dramatic.
Look I got pissed when my mom smacked me too, but to order a hit for that is just insane. Thats like some Nero shit, and he didnt last long. 
Tyrion used to slap up Joffrey, he did it in the KG presence too. When they protested Cersei told them to shut up and confront the mob, a few slaps aint hurting no one.

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He needed to show force

Justice

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Sending Rickard to NW was both a show of force and an act of mercy at the same time and was a just action by Westerosi standards. By a single action he would've showed the world that he was a just and powerful ruler and not incapable of mercy. Sending someone to NW isn't sweeping it under the rug. Tyrion could just as easliy have killed Sylnt and was in his right to do so but didn't. Sending Slynt to Watch doesn't have much benefits for Tyrion but neither does executing him while on the other hand sending Karstark to Watch has it's benefits for Robb while killing him is the actual opposite.

Swept under the rug like so many grumkins, snarks and dust bunnies. Janos was found guilty (by judge/jury/hand) of murdering a baby, a heinous crime. The people would love a show like they had with Eddard, but instead of random hand its hated cop, oh theyd sell out the whole sept. But that spectacle would lead to questions, what baby, and who would order that? Janos isnt worth the gossip, better to just send him to the lands of grumkins and away from KL (and Harrenhal).
He didnt gain anything by executing Karstark, but he kept his legacy intact. If he sent him off to retirement itd look like he sanctioned the murder, and for a hero like Robb thats unacceptable. A statement has to be made and it cant have the word grumkin in it.
 

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Technically it was Allar Deem who murdered the baby

Probably 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

not that it excuses Janos.

No, but to be honest he was only sent to the wall because his father didn't want a butchers son ascending to the hall of kings

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tyrion straight up had him killed. But he should have offed Slynt as well.

I guess? It's kinda brutal but I guess that goes with the job 

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20 hours ago, sifth said:

Yea, but he ordered them to do it. One of Tywin's final lines in the first novel is him telling Kevan to order The Mountain, Amory Lorch and the Brave Companions to loot and burn as much of the Riverlands as possible. He even asked Tyrion, if he wanted his clansmen to join in. Tywin wanted chaos in the Riverlands, to divide up Robb's army.

Murder, pillage, rape, and arson are standard operating practice, for most armies in this world.

Armies live off the land, which means pillaging the smallfolk.  Once you march into enemy territory, as Tywin and Ser Kevan did at the start, and Robb did later on in the war, murder, rape, and arson get added to the pillaging.  The aim is to break the will of the enemy, by devastating their lands and killing their people.

I think there was an extra level of cruelty and spite to the Lannisters, but the Northmen were not a lot better.

 

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I think there was an extra level of cruelty and spite to the Lannisters, but the Northmen were not a lot better.

 

If so it was never shown to us, but mostly because we were never given a POV of what Robb did in the Westerlands. I will say Robb doesn't strike me as the top to approve of his men doing any of the things The Mountain and Tywin's other monsters did, at least not when it comes to approving of raping others and burning down homes.

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1 minute ago, sifth said:

If so it was never shown to us, but mostly because we were never given a POV of what Robb did in the Westerlands. I will say Robb doesn't strike me as the top to approve of his men doing any of the things The Mountain and Tywin's other monsters did, at least not when it comes to approving of raping others and burning down homes.

Many Westerlands smallfolk will starve come winter because Robb stole their cattle.

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1 minute ago, sifth said:

If so it was never shown to us, but mostly because we were never given a POV of what Robb did in the Westerlands. I will say Robb doesn't strike me as the top to approve of his men doing any of the things The Mountain and Tywin's other monsters did, at least not when it comes to approving of raping others and burning down homes.

Well, we got Robb’s commanders hanging young women for sleeping with Lannister soldiers, and Catelyn is told they’re “paying back in kind”, what was done in the Riverlands.  Seizure of livestock means Western peasants will starve - and starving the enemy is itself a weapon of war.

I don’t think it’s in Robb’s nature (unlike Tywin or Kevan) to expressly order murder and rape.  I expect his orders are more along the lines of “seize what you can, burn the rest,” and “punish collaborators”, and then it’s left to his commanders to interpret them as they see fit.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Well, we got Robb’s commanders hanging young women for sleeping with Lannister soldiers, and Catelyn is told they’re “paying back in kind”, what was done in the Riverlands.  Seizure of livestock means Western peasants will starve - and starving the enemy is itself a weapon of war.

I don’t think it’s in Robb’s nature (unlike Tywin or Kevan) to expressly order murder and rape.  I expect his orders are more along the lines of “seize what you can, burn the rest,” and “punish collaborators”, and then it’s left to his commanders to interpret them as they see fit.

I mean it's conjecture at best, when it comes to what Robb did to the people of the Westernlands. What we know for certain is that he stole some gold and cattle from them and took a few of their castles. All and all that seems rather minor, compared to what Tywin and his monsters did to the people of the Riverlands. Naturally my opinion on this could change if/when GRRM gives us a more detailed account of what Robb and his army were up to.

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19 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean it's conjecture at best, when it comes to what Robb did to the people of the Westernlands. What we know for certain is that he stole some gold and cattle for them and took a few of their castles. All and all that seems rather minor, compared to what the Tywin and his monsters did to the people of the Riverlands. Naturally my opinion on this could change if/when GRRM gives us a more detailed account of what Robb and his army were up to

Tywin's obviously worse because he specifically orders his troops to carry out these extra-brutal acts. In that way it goes beyond the normal scope of warfare, because it's deliberate and exagerated.

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Tywin used fear to force other into submission, it's why he kept the relic of castamere next to the highway. He used fear again in the RL which didn't seem to do the trick that time but he kept at it because that's all he knew.

Robb went west to lure Tywin into a trap so while burning his home may get the trap sprung the fact that Robbs capable of mayhem probably sufficed. Karstark and Mormont made a big deal of counting cows which was probably ordered by Robb but he himself wasn't out there tipping cows but capturing the Crag and fighting in Oxcross

Edited by Hugorfonics
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48 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tywin's obviously worse because he specifically orders his troops to carry out these extra-brutal acts. In that way it goes beyond the normal scope of warfare, because it's deliberate and exagerated.

Tywin drowned women, children, and servants at Castamere.  He had his father’s mistress stripped naked, and paraded as a harlot.  He had Tysha gang-raped.  He had Elia raped and murdered and her children hacked to pieces.

Even by the standards of his time and place, Tywin is a monster, as is Kevan.

I find it inconceivable that Robb Stark would ever commit such enormities.

But, Robb is a king, and he takes the decisions that kings take.  And that means being very ruthless, and inflicting suffering on the smallfolk of the enemy (as of course, do our own leaders).

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On 10/4/2022 at 2:57 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I have to put Robb in last place because I don't think Ned or Snowhead would make the same mistake he did with Jeyne. Unless the love potion theory is true and so Robb was drugged into it. Ned wouldn't break the marriage pack because it would be dishonourable and Snowhead wouldn't either.

Well, if he didn't marry her it would make him look just as bad as John Willoughby from Sense and Sensibility, have sex with a girl and abandon her without a thought.

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4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tywin used fear to force other into submission, it's why he kept the relic of castamere next to the highway. He used fear again in the RL which didn't seem to do the trick that time but he kept at it because that's all he knew.

Robb went west to lure Tywin into a trap so while burning his home may get the trap sprung the fact that Robbs capable of mayhem probably sufficed. Karstark and Mormont made a big deal of counting cows which was probably ordered by Robb but he himself wasn't out there tipping cows but capturing the Crag and fighting in Oxcross

Speaking of Castamere, what's the value of the Greatjon capturing it? As far as I am aware, nobody's mined there for 40 years and everything in there (mining equipment-wise) would have rusted or rotted away. If Robb intended to use the silver, the apparatus for the mines would have to be built from scratch and that would take time, time which isn't on his side.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Speaking of Castamere, what's the value of the Greatjon capturing it? As far as I am aware, nobody's mined there for 40 years and everything in there (mining equipment-wise) would have rusted or rotted away. If Robb intended to use the silver, the apparatus for the mines would have to be built from scratch and that would take time, time which isn't on his side.

Maybe, then it'd be useless. But I thought the ruined castle and the adjacent mines are different just same name.  

But for sure, Greatjons not mining, just taking the gold thats laying around, or simply destroying Lannister industry for the sake of it

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