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Assuming R+L=J and it's Legitimate, what will Jon's Reaction be when he finds out?


Craving Peaches
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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Like his real father, Mance Rayder.

I cannot see how the logistics of this work at all. They were at opposite ends of the continent. Mance was a sworn brother of the Watch and he hadn't deserted at that point. When/where/how/why would he have access to Lyanna? Unless she isn't his mother either. In which case why was Ned looking after him?

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18 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I cannot see how the logistics of this work at all. They were at opposite ends of the continent. Mance was a sworn brother of the Watch and he hadn't deserted at that point. When/where/how/why would he have access to Lyanna? Unless she isn't his mother either. In which case why was Ned looking after him?

Opposite ends of the continent? Since when is Winterfell that far from the Wall? Mance has been to Winterfell twice that he acknowledges, plus there was a Black Brother at Harrenhal and the Watch has multiple people it sends out to recruit. Mance being familiar with all the songs south of the Neck, may well have been south of the Neck more than once. Mance say's he's "Tasted the Dornishman's wife". Robert as Lord of Storm's End, would've been a Marcher Lord, as his lands are by the Dornish Marches. 

But nah, Jon's the son of Rhaegar and he's gonna ride dragons and slay the Night's King and marry Dany and have lil dragon babies and live happily ever after. Or he's gonna kill Dany and rule Westeros instead. Jon's been dying to get on the throne. Never being south of Winterfell, Jon in his know it all youth feels he's the best fit for King of Westeros and that all Lords and Ladies will bow and simper to him. Or something like that. Im not sure how people imagine Jon being Rhaeagar's son would play out. It seems non sense narratively, especially to Jon's actual story arch. The one that saw him facing the same struggles as Mance and falling for the wildling way of life and a wildling woman. 

 

If there is a Princess that was promised, it was Brienne. The Evenstar from Evenfall. Starfall. The comet was her herald.

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5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Opposite ends of the continent? Since when is Winterfell that far from the Wall? Mance has been to Winterfell twice that he acknowledges, plus there was a Black Brother at Harrenhal and the Watch has multiple people it sends out to recruit. Mance being familiar with all the songs south of the Neck, may well have been south of the Neck more than once. Mance say's he's "Tasted the Dornishman's wife". Robert as Lord of Storm's End, would've been a Marcher Lord, as his lands are by the Dornish Marches. 

Lyanna was in Dorne. Mance was at the wall. If you're talking about when Lyanna was at Winterfell then the timing wouldn't work because Jon would have been born before them. Also I really doubt Lord Rickard would just leave Lyanna and Mance to their own devices. And it's never mentioned that Mance was a recruiter. He was a ranger. That's how he had the whole experience that made him want to leave the watch.

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

But nah, Jon's the son of Rhaegar and he's gonna ride dragons and slay the Night's King and marry Dany and have lil dragon babies and live happily ever after. Or he's gonna kill Dany and rule Westeros instead. Jon's been dying to get on the throne. Never being south of Winterfell, Jon in his know it all youth feels he's the best fit for King of Westeros and that all Lords and Ladies will bow and simper to him. Or something like that.

I don't think anyone has suggested this as what they feel will happen.

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im not sure how people imagine Jon being Rhaeagar's son would play out. It seems non sense narratively, especially to Jon's actual story arch. The one that saw him facing the same struggles as Mance and falling for the wildling way of life and a wildling woman.

Jon's arc arguably sees him face the same tests as...Maester Aemon.

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4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Lyanna was in Dorne. Mance was at the wall. If you're talking about when Lyanna was at Winterfell then the timing wouldn't work because Jon would have been born before them. Also I really doubt Lord Rickard would just leave Lyanna and Mance to their own devices. And it's never mentioned that Mance was a recruiter. He was a ranger. That's how he had the whole experience that made him want to leave the watch.

I don't think anyone has suggested this as what they feel will happen.

Jon's arc arguably sees him face the same tests as...Maester Aemon.

Lyanna was in Dorne? The whole time? Mance couldn't have been down there still? The missing body of Lord Willam Dustin while Willem Dary is supposedly raising Daenerys? With our only account of what happened being Ned's repressed memories and fever dreams. Dany's whole lemon tree bit and other clues that say what we were "told" isn't what really happened. 

Mance could easily have knocked up Lyanna sometime after Harrenhal if he was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Given if Mance was born at White Tree, then the White Tree on his sigil would make more sense than Lyanna painting one and being the Knight.  

Does it need to be spoiled that Mance was sent out to recruit and was at Harrenhal? Has Rhaegar been revealed to be Jons father and I am unaware? Has anything that would spoil who Jon's parents are actually been revealed? No.

Can Rangers not go out and recruit? Is that explicitly listed as a rule? Also, can men not be reassigned? Who ever Mance Rayder was to the L.C (Likely his son), he was allowed to go to Winterfell for some reason that had nothing to do with Ranging beyond the Wall. So you really have nothing to go on there to be so sure.

Mance tells Jon a vague and dubious story about how and why he left the watch. He also tells Jon other lies.

And no, Maester Aemon is not like Jon by much. Firstly, Aemon turned down the throne cause he was a Maester already and had sworn vows. Jon meanwhile is dead and free of any vows he may have sworn in life, even if he return, he isn't facing the same choice as Aemon. At all. That's assuming that Jon is Rhaegars kid and will somehow have the throne offered to him to be able to turn down in the first place. Which it wont, because Aegon has a farrrrrr better claim than Jon. So does Dany.

People south of the neck at least know who Dany is. They've heard her legend, they know she survived the Sack of K.L. and they know she has dragons. Who is Jon to them? Other than some bastard of some traitor that was beheaded. No one knows he exist even aside from Cersei. Jon is of no threat to anyone in the south. Rob was more of a threat and even he was no ultimate threat.

 

This is all my opinion of course, but lets look at somethings that are rather important to the plot.

 

First of all, foreshadowing through character associations. This one is big. Lets start with Brienne before going to Lyanna and Jon.

Brienne is likely the Princess that was promised. She is more important than Jon, or Dany. How do we know that? Because she is descended of Dunk, whose story is so secretive, that we still don't know what happened at Summerhal. We know the Dance of Dragons and how that ends and nearly everything else, except for that one thing. Why? Well, who does Brienne hang out with that shapes her character? The King Slayer, Jamie Lannister. Who soiled his cloak to kill the king, and save millions. Brienne hates him at first, then comes to respect him after learning the truth.

This is important because not only will Brienne have to soil her cloak, but so did Duncan. (IMO). Duncan is responsible for saving everyone at Summerhal when he stopped Aegon and killed him cause Aegon was going to sacrifice the new born Rhaegar to birth dragons into the world. Dunk is the only one who would slap Aegon and stand up to him, and watching the boy he helped raise, descend into madness will force his hand.

Brienne will be forced to kill Dany to save millions.

If we except this fore shadowing through multiples clues then it points to other stuff else where (EvenStar + Evenfall = Starfall). The Evenstar is the Evening Star and signals night. The end of Dany, who is the morning star and whose name is a homo phone to Dayne Heiress. Dorne and Stormlanders being enemies. 

Plus there is the "Seed is Strong" clue that the Targaryen's are "Strongs" and that their blood is tainted. So Dany is Ashara Dayne's kid and that the events at the Tower of Joy are not what we have been led to believe. Specially is Dustin is Dary. 

This little story thread though, connect to the Dunk and Egg story and important to the Fire end of the story in the south playing out. Something Jon is not apart of and no real reason to think he'll go south and ever be a part of it. His story has thus far been in the north.

 

Now, using character associations and such, Jon is with Mance and is told the legend of Bael the Bard and how his blood is mixed with Wildling Blood.

Lets just stop righhttttttttt there. Why, just why would there be such a strong focus on Jon being blood with the Wildlings, just to trash it with "oh no, he's really the blood of the dragon" and now he's needed south to be king of a land he's never been. 

Sometimes I wonder if im even reading the same book, or if everyone has just watched the show and mixed stuff like Clegan Bowl, Battle of the Bastards and other fantasy into their head cannon as fact already.

Jon's story is the same as not only Mance's but that of Bael the Bard and his son. Like Bael's son, who also didn't know his true parentage, he fought his father the King Beyond the Wall. Just like Brienne hanging with the King Slayer, Jon hanging with the King Beyond the Wall is important to his plot.

Then there is Lyanna. Who doesn't want to hook up with Robert cause he's a man whore. Yet people believe that Lyanna would lower herself to stealing a married man...............                                                                                ...........this leaves me speechless every. darn. time.

You have Mance Rayder, a free man with nooooo woman, who also sings, and is not far from her castle. Or you have Rhaegar who we don't know if she even actually met in person, that she saw sing at Harrenhal once. That this woman, (Who is likened to Arya) would throw her family and the realm into war to run away with another womans husband is crazy.

Arya firstly has no interest in being queen, or princess. Why would Lyanna? Arya wants to be free, like the wildlings. Free to fight, free to travel, free to answer to no man. Why would Lyanna want otherwise? Why would Lyanna want to be Rhaegar's wife? Let alone the mistress? Tie herself down to a life she never wanted to a man who will leave his wife over the first pretty girl he runs into at a tourney.

No. Jon is the child of Mance and Lyanna and his story is in the North. He will kill the Night King, or become the new one, but he will never be King of Westeros and a Targaryen. Not in my opinion.

 

Which is why asking what Jon would do if offered the throne ends up in a dead end that even the show couldn't explain. "I don't want it" is at most, what he would say. If he even was Rhaegar's child, which I highlyyyyy doubt as narratively it makes no sense.

Brienne is the hero in the South who stops the evil there (Dany), while Jon is in the North to stop the evil there (Night's King).

Which makes a heck of a lot more sense than Jon being the secret love child of Rhaegar and Lyanna who never gets the throne and never kills the Night's King. He simply learns a truth that has no importance or impact other than to drive Dany nuts (Which is what Aegon is for in the books) For, GRRM has confirmed that Bran will be the King in the end.

 

Edit- Ned's reason for protecting Jon is covered in the Bael story. The Stark Maiden Bael beaded hid his true parentage, leading the Stark to kill his true father, Bael. It was hidden from the Stark, because it was an act that brought great shame on their house. The Blue Rose a bitter reminder of this fact. (Something odd for Rhaegar to give Lyanna, but less so for Mance. Who would be signaling to her that he's going to take her in the Wildling tradition.).

It makes more sense and less work to apply these clues to Jon and Mance than it does to assume Rhaegar. Rhaegar requires much more working out "How and Why" than Mance does. Mance makes more sense.

Also helps explain why Tormund has kids on Bear Island that are being kept a secret too (She bear story, and Lady Mormont). Taking a bride from beyond the wall seems to be a tradition that Mance and Lyanna would be continuing. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman
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You have Aegon to ride the other dragon and fight the Others with Dany. You have Aegon for Dany to try to marry to make a Targaryen alliance with, that can/will refuse her and drive her nuts along with Cersei in her quest for the Iron Throne. Which will likely see Brienne acting as Kings Guard to Dany.

What does this leave for book Jon? The "other" son of Rhaegar as the theory goes.

In this scenario. What would Jon say to the Iron Throne? In the South where he has never been, past Winterfell. 

Would Aegon be fake? When Varys came to Westeros before Aegon was even born. This would involve Varys some how orchestrating the birth of Aegon, so he can allow this Aegon to be killed so he can implant his fake Aegon yearrssss later.

This sir, would make Varys truly a magician as Illyrio say's. 

Or, is it more likely, that the man who looks like an "Egg" is a real Targaryen trying to protect his kin and restore Aegon to the throne. Varys could after all be the child of Jenny of Old Stones and Duncan the Small. Jenny and Duncan were together for nearly 20 years before Summerhal happened. Its not unreasonable to assume they had a child who was seen as a potential heir to the throne and threat that need to be rid of or hid in Essos. 

If Aegon is real, this greatly affect the picture of Jon and where he sits in things. Whether Aegon is real or not, peoples belief in him being real, is enough to rival any claim from Jon. 

So your question on how Jon would react is something I find interesting, as it hinges on a lot of variables that people on here have "Predetermined" and set them in stone as unwavering facts of canon roared at the few posters who challenge the "accepted narrative". (not you, but people on the boards tend to)

Its rather hard to make R +L work when you get to the end game and I enjoy the theories on trying to make a sensical plot of it. If it is indeed what George intended, I can see why he is struggling also. Rhaegar being Jon's father doesn't really lead to any satisfying end game or logic. For some, logic isn't needed though, just entertainment. Jon better get Dany, the Throne, kill the Night King, and ride a dragon while defeating Ramsey Bolton in the battle of the Bastards. Or that how it seems at times. IF, Rhaegar is Jon's father, this has been the slowesttttttttttt "Non mystery" everrrrrrrrrr, since fans "Figured it out" forever ago. 

 

I hope everyone is wrong, including me but especially the R+L crowd. Itd be a shame to think that a story hailed as being so original and smart, was figured out and solved long ago. Id rather Patch Face was Jon's father over Rhaegar at this point.

 

 

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8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Mance couldn't have been down there still?

Mance would be at the Wall as a member of the Night's Watch. Even if he was a recruiter and not a ranger as is shown to us, he would not be with Ned and co. He would be in one of the settlements in Dorne to recruit people. 

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

With our only account of what happened being Ned's repressed memories and fever dreams.

Going by this logic you could claim anything happened down there. Ned's recollection did occur when he was ill but that doesn't mean that it is totally unreliable. And if Jon was Mance's son, why were the Kingsguard there? To protect Lyanna's bastard child with an oathbreaker? I find that very unlikely.

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Dany's whole lemon tree bit and other clues that say what we were "told" isn't what really happened.

It's perfectly possible for lemon trees to be imported to Braavos. Trees grow in the gardens of rich people there. Given Daenerys, Viserys and Ser Willam were in a big house and were able to hire servants it's likely there were in a wealthy area that would have trees/a garden. Also, Daenerys could be misremembering somehting that happened in her past. Her account may not be totally reliable either in which case it would have exactly the same issues of validity as what Ned thinks happed at the tower.

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Mance could easily have knocked up Lyanna sometime after Harrenhal if he was the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

The timing for this does not work. Jon was born at the end of the war, at least a year after Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, which happened after the Tourney. If Mance impregnated Lyanna at that time, Jon would not have been born then, he would have been born much earlier given that it takes 9 months on average for a baby to be born. More than 9 months pass between the tourney at Harrenhal and the end of Robert's Rebellion.

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Does it need to be spoiled that Mance was sent out to recruit and was at Harrenhal?

It isn't just left ambiguous, there is nothing to suggest Mance was a recruiter, by contrast it is not only implied from his story about the red silk but also outright stated that he used to go on rangings. Also, I feel like if Mance was a recruiter he would not have left the Watch in the first place. Mance being a recruiter would make it much less likely that he'd feel trapped and constrained by the Watch, since he would be allowed to travel up and down the continent and have more freedom and be left to his own devices.

Quote

Mance would sing it of old, when he came back from a ranging.

 

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Can Rangers not go out and recruit? Is that explicitly listed as a rule? Also, can men not be reassigned?

If they can, it has never been shown or even implied. The role one is assigned to seem to be rigid with little to no room for changing. People can change roles within their catagory as we see with Chett. But we have never seen someone go from being a steward to being a ranger as far as I'm aware. Jon's reaction to being chosen as a steward implies it's a permanent position.

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Who ever Mance Rayder was to the L.C (Likely his son), he was allowed to go to Winterfell for some reason that had nothing to do with Ranging beyond the Wall. So you really have nothing to go on there to be so sure.

Why was Benjen as a ranger at Winterfell? As a guest of honour. So the LC may have brought Mance along for similar reasons, or to educate him, if he felt he was like his son. If Mance had a high rank as a ranger he could have been present.

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And no, Maester Aemon is not like Jon by much. Firstly, Aemon turned down the throne cause he was a Maester already and had sworn vows. Jon meanwhile is dead and free of any vows he may have sworn in life, even if he return, he isn't facing the same choice as Aemon. At all. That's assuming that Jon is Rhaegars kid and will somehow have the throne offered to him to be able to turn down in the first place. Which it wont, because Aegon has a farrrrrr better claim than Jon. So does Dany.

Prior to his death, Jon had his vows tested numerous times, just like Aemon. Aemon literally compares Jon to himself when he was a boy.

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lets just stop righhttttttttt there. Why, just why would there be such a strong focus on Jon being blood with the Wildlings, just to trash it with "oh no, he's really the blood of the dragon" and now he's needed south to be king of a land he's never been. 

The focus is on all Starks having blood of the wildlings. Jon would still have this wildling blood anyway if R+L=J because Lyanna is his mother.

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Sometimes I wonder if im even reading the same book, or if everyone has just watched the show and mixed stuff like Clegan Bowl, Battle of the Bastards and other fantasy into their head cannon as fact already.

I've not even seen that far in the show. Ultimately everything will be headcannon until confirmed by the author/the next book.

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Then there is Lyanna. Who doesn't want to hook up with Robert cause he's a man whore. Yet people believe that Lyanna would lower herself to stealing a married man...............                                                                                ...........this leaves me speechless every. darn. time.

So Lyanna won't go off with Rhaegar because he's a married man and she won't marry Robert because she thinks he won't stay true to his marriage vows, but she will go off with some random Night's Watch member who would be breaking his vows to do so, just as Rhaegar and Robert would be breaking their wedding vows? No matter which option Lyanna is involved in breaking someone's vows...Also Lyanna didn't steal Rhaegar, Rhaegar stole Lyanna is what everyone thinks happened.

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That this woman, (Who is likened to Arya) would throw her family and the realm into war to run away with another womans husband is crazy.

Love does tend to make people do irrational and silly things. Also she was quite young. I suspect that she soon regretted her initial decision to run off with Rhaegar.

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If he even was Rhaegar's child, which I highlyyyyy doubt as narratively it makes no sense.

I believe it has quite a lot of narrative potential. The irony of Jon spending his whole life being treated as a bastard when he was the rightful heir and legitimate the whole time. The emotions he would feel about the whole thing.

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It makes more sense and less work to apply these clues to Jon and Mance than it does to assume Rhaegar. Rhaegar requires much more working out "How and Why" than Mance does. Mance makes more sense.

I'm not sure about that. I think Mance being Jon's father requires more assumptions than Rhaegar being his father.

My main issues with the theory are the logistics and the fact that it doesn't explain why the kingsguard were there.

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So your question on how Jon would react is something I find interesting, as it hinges on a lot of variables that people on here have "Predetermined" and set them in stone as unwavering facts of canon roared at the few posters who challenge the "accepted narrative". (not you, but people on the boards tend to)

Its rather hard to make R +L work when you get to the end game and I enjoy the theories on trying to make a sensical plot of it. If it is indeed what George intended, I can see why he is struggling also. Rhaegar being Jon's father doesn't really lead to any satisfying end game or logic. For some, logic isn't needed though, just entertainment. Jon better get Dany, the Throne, kill the Night King, and ride a dragon while defeating Ramsey Bolton in the battle of the Bastards. Or that how it seems at times. IF, Rhaegar is Jon's father, this has been the slowesttttttttttt "Non mystery" everrrrrrrrrr, since fans "Figured it out" forever ago. 

I think it's important to note that only a minority of readers are actually on the boards, so things people here have figuered out ages ago might be news to everyone else. So what seems obvious to us may not be obvious to everyone else.

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I hope everyone is wrong, including me but especially the R+L crowd. Itd be a shame to think that a story hailed as being so original and smart, was figured out and solved long ago. Id rather Patch Face was Jon's father over Rhaegar at this point.

I personally think it would be hilarious if Robert was Jon's father but it will never happen.

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Jon is going to be devastated and angry at first. The 5 stages of grief: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance. He's going to go through all of these and I believe he's legitimate. Why should GRRM trade one bastard name for another? He'll probably ride a dragon, however that's the only 'perk' I can see from being a bastard Targaryen.

GRRM gives us a hint that he's legitimate when Jon ran from the NW, but then returned. He specifically said Aemon's full name instead of Maester Aemon.

Quote

Nor was he Aemon Targaryen. Three times the old man had chosen, and three times he had chosen honor, but that was him. Even now, Jon could not decide whether the maester had stayed because he was weak and craven, or because he was strong and true.

Since Jon went back due to honor (not his, but honor, just the same) I think his birth name is Aemon Targaryen (there are other clues, but nothing relevant to this specific conversation.)

 

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5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Mance would be at the Wall as a member of the Night's Watch. Even if he was a recruiter and not a ranger as is shown to us, he would not be with Ned and co. He would be in one of the settlements in Dorne to recruit people. 

Going by this logic you could claim anything happened down there. Ned's recollection did occur when he was ill but that doesn't mean that it is totally unreliable. And if Jon was Mance's son, why were the Kingsguard there? To protect Lyanna's bastard child with an oathbreaker? I find that very unlikely.

It's perfectly possible for lemon trees to be imported to Braavos. Trees grow in the gardens of rich people there. Given Daenerys, Viserys and Ser Willam were in a big house and were able to hire servants it's likely there were in a wealthy area that would have trees/a garden. Also, Daenerys could be misremembering somehting that happened in her past. Her account may not be totally reliable either in which case it would have exactly the same issues of validity as what Ned thinks happed at the tower.

The timing for this does not work. Jon was born at the end of the war, at least a year after Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, which happened after the Tourney. If Mance impregnated Lyanna at that time, Jon would not have been born then, he would have been born much earlier given that it takes 9 months on average for a baby to be born. More than 9 months pass between the tourney at Harrenhal and the end of Robert's Rebellion.

It isn't just left ambiguous, there is nothing to suggest Mance was a recruiter, by contrast it is not only implied from his story about the red silk but also outright stated that he used to go on rangings. Also, I feel like if Mance was a recruiter he would not have left the Watch in the first place. Mance being a recruiter would make it much less likely that he'd feel trapped and constrained by the Watch, since he would be allowed to travel up and down the continent and have more freedom and be left to his own devices.

 

If they can, it has never been shown or even implied. The role one is assigned to seem to be rigid with little to no room for changing. People can change roles within their catagory as we see with Chett. But we have never seen someone go from being a steward to being a ranger as far as I'm aware. Jon's reaction to being chosen as a steward implies it's a permanent position.

Why was Benjen as a ranger at Winterfell? As a guest of honour. So the LC may have brought Mance along for similar reasons, or to educate him, if he felt he was like his son. If Mance had a high rank as a ranger he could have been present.

Prior to his death, Jon had his vows tested numerous times, just like Aemon. Aemon literally compares Jon to himself when he was a boy.

The focus is on all Starks having blood of the wildlings. Jon would still have this wildling blood anyway if R+L=J because Lyanna is his mother.

I've not even seen that far in the show. Ultimately everything will be headcannon until confirmed by the author/the next book.

So Lyanna won't go off with Rhaegar because he's a married man and she won't marry Robert because she thinks he won't stay true to his marriage vows, but she will go off with some random Night's Watch member who would be breaking his vows to do so, just as Rhaegar and Robert would be breaking their wedding vows? No matter which option Lyanna is involved in breaking someone's vows...Also Lyanna didn't steal Rhaegar, Rhaegar stole Lyanna is what everyone thinks happened.

Love does tend to make people do irrational and silly things. Also she was quite young. I suspect that she soon regretted her initial decision to run off with Rhaegar.

I believe it has quite a lot of narrative potential. The irony of Jon spending his whole life being treated as a bastard when he was the rightful heir and legitimate the whole time. The emotions he would feel about the whole thing.

I'm not sure about that. I think Mance being Jon's father requires more assumptions than Rhaegar being his father.

My main issues with the theory are the logistics and the fact that it doesn't explain why the kingsguard were there.

I think it's important to note that only a minority of readers are actually on the boards, so things people here have figuered out ages ago might be news to everyone else. So what seems obvious to us may not be obvious to everyone else.

I personally think it would be hilarious if Robert was Jon's father but it will never happen.

Busy atm and will respond more in  depth a lil later when I can, but having said that I wanted to touch on the Kings Guard being at the Tower of the Joy. 

The simples way to sum it up would be that Daenerys was there, hence William Dustin/Willem Darry swap out later with the Queen's child. Whether Jon was there or not, Im not sure, all I could say with some certainty is that Daenerys likely was there. 

Ashara Daynes brother was there though, and quite possibly, Ashara Dayne was Rhaegar's original plan for a 3rd child. I think Arthur had put forward his sister to his best friend, much the same way the Hightowers advanced themselves.

Dany even has a dream where she see's herself as Rhaegar and hears "Remember who you are".

R+L=J doesn't explain Dustin's missing horse, Lemon trees, or a few things, like what would Rhaegar had done had he not hypothetically met Lyanna? Did he not have a plan for a 3rd child? Or, was it Ashara?

Mix in the "seed is strong" and a theory that the Targaryens lost their magic blood by dilution. Then Dany, not having Targaryen blood, would need other ancient magical blood, the Daynes. While binding dragons to her bloodline, through 3 sacrifices of Drogo, Rhaego, and Viserys. She basically got lucky that Mirri did what she did, or not if you believe Mirri was there on purpose but thats an aside.

Edited by AlaskanSandman
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5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Mance would be at the Wall as a member of the Night's Watch. Even if he was a recruiter and not a ranger as is shown to us, he would not be with Ned and co. He would be in one of the settlements in Dorne to recruit people. 

Going by this logic you could claim anything happened down there. Ned's recollection did occur when he was ill but that doesn't mean that it is totally unreliable. And if Jon was Mance's son, why were the Kingsguard there? To protect Lyanna's bastard child with an oathbreaker? I find that very unlikely.

It's perfectly possible for lemon trees to be imported to Braavos. Trees grow in the gardens of rich people there. Given Daenerys, Viserys and Ser Willam were in a big house and were able to hire servants it's likely there were in a wealthy area that would have trees/a garden. Also, Daenerys could be misremembering somehting that happened in her past. Her account may not be totally reliable either in which case it would have exactly the same issues of validity as what Ned thinks happed at the tower.

The timing for this does not work. Jon was born at the end of the war, at least a year after Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, which happened after the Tourney. If Mance impregnated Lyanna at that time, Jon would not have been born then, he would have been born much earlier given that it takes 9 months on average for a baby to be born. More than 9 months pass between the tourney at Harrenhal and the end of Robert's Rebellion.

It isn't just left ambiguous, there is nothing to suggest Mance was a recruiter, by contrast it is not only implied from his story about the red silk but also outright stated that he used to go on rangings. Also, I feel like if Mance was a recruiter he would not have left the Watch in the first place. Mance being a recruiter would make it much less likely that he'd feel trapped and constrained by the Watch, since he would be allowed to travel up and down the continent and have more freedom and be left to his own devices.

 

If they can, it has never been shown or even implied. The role one is assigned to seem to be rigid with little to no room for changing. People can change roles within their catagory as we see with Chett. But we have never seen someone go from being a steward to being a ranger as far as I'm aware. Jon's reaction to being chosen as a steward implies it's a permanent position.

Why was Benjen as a ranger at Winterfell? As a guest of honour. So the LC may have brought Mance along for similar reasons, or to educate him, if he felt he was like his son. If Mance had a high rank as a ranger he could have been present.

Prior to his death, Jon had his vows tested numerous times, just like Aemon. Aemon literally compares Jon to himself when he was a boy.

The focus is on all Starks having blood of the wildlings. Jon would still have this wildling blood anyway if R+L=J because Lyanna is his mother.

I've not even seen that far in the show. Ultimately everything will be headcannon until confirmed by the author/the next book.

So Lyanna won't go off with Rhaegar because he's a married man and she won't marry Robert because she thinks he won't stay true to his marriage vows, but she will go off with some random Night's Watch member who would be breaking his vows to do so, just as Rhaegar and Robert would be breaking their wedding vows? No matter which option Lyanna is involved in breaking someone's vows...Also Lyanna didn't steal Rhaegar, Rhaegar stole Lyanna is what everyone thinks happened.

Love does tend to make people do irrational and silly things. Also she was quite young. I suspect that she soon regretted her initial decision to run off with Rhaegar.

I believe it has quite a lot of narrative potential. The irony of Jon spending his whole life being treated as a bastard when he was the rightful heir and legitimate the whole time. The emotions he would feel about the whole thing.

I'm not sure about that. I think Mance being Jon's father requires more assumptions than Rhaegar being his father.

My main issues with the theory are the logistics and the fact that it doesn't explain why the kingsguard were there.

I think it's important to note that only a minority of readers are actually on the boards, so things people here have figuered out ages ago might be news to everyone else. So what seems obvious to us may not be obvious to everyone else.

I personally think it would be hilarious if Robert was Jon's father but it will never happen.

The Red Silk story is something of question Ive touched upon else where having to do with slavers going north of the Wall for slaves and the Lord Commander and Mance trying to make a deal with Rhaegar for the Crown to aid them. Mance in turn, helps Rhaegar at Harrenhal by not competing against him.

You have to look at the slaver situation talked about through the book.

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Narratively nothing would be gained from Jon being just the royal bastard. His plot is civil war, cultural transformation, human rights. He is with the black brothers of a correction centre and not with the privilege manifested in a TargAryan Throne. GRRM put him where he is needed.

It makes far more sense narratively for others to deal with informations like R+L. Lady Stoneheart for example with Robb‘s crown and will. Or Samwell, possibly amidst a Citadel conspiracy against any Targaryen restoration through some well met fake news. Even Cersei and Jaime could seize so much more of an information concerning all families their own had trouble with: Targs, Baratheon and Starks. Cersei even talked with Ned about Jon’s heritage and Jaime is still practically haunted by him.

So no, I don’t expect Jon receiving information other than through rumours or their consequences. The Jon I expect to read would not even care of whatever mum or dad. They simply weren’t there and he became the result of deprivation.

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