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Jon's POV in TWOW, and where it could take us.


Sandy Clegg
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More of a quick question rather than speculation.

If we assume Jon will warg into Ghost for his POV chapters in The Winds of Winter, do we assume that Ghost will then leave Jon's body and go travelling North of the Wall? I know that's the general consensus among a lot of the fandom. But it seems like a long trek for a lone wolf to take, no? Now, I've read posts suggesting that Ghost himself may have warging powers, so  ... will Jon's chapters perhaps take us into the POVs of, say, Nymeria, Shaggydog and Summer? That would mean Jon's chapters get insights into goings on in the Riverlands, Skagos (even more, if Davos rescues Rickon), and North of the Wall via Summer. Could Jon/Ghost even warg some ravens and give us POVs from further afield? 

Basically it just seems like a looooong journey to get Ghost further north than Bran has gone already, and GRRM would make more efficient use of Jon/Ghost's POV by having him warg to various locations. It also solves the issue of having Ghost and Jon's bodies being too separated, as surely they would need to be close by in order for Jon to 'rejoin' his resurrected body (assuming - as most of us do - that this will happen). I know fans are waiting to explore the Lands of Always Winter via Jon/Ghost's POV but if he's warging ravens, for example, or Summer, then this could still be a thing.

What do you think guys? If we get warging POVs from Jon/Ghost in multiple locations, where else might he be able to see?

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My personal belief is that we are gonna lose Jon as a POV, simply because he will be going through drastical changes and critical times. That's why Melisandre may had been introduced as a POV: To replace Jon.

It would make an interesting situation for us, the readers, if we're not allowed into Jon's head anymore, just when it would be the most important. 

This may work well for George too, as he never seems to be keen on explaining magical stuff on his pages. It would stage a mistery that we might only bunk down along the way, instead of giving a clear and nailed down explanation to what exactly was the process of Jon's return.

At the very least it would be really interesting to not have the power of looking into Jon's head. It would certainly hype me up.

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5 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

My personal belief is that we are gonna lose Jon as a POV, simply because he will be going through drastical changes and critical times. That's why Melisandre may had been introduced as a POV: To replace Jon.

This is also what I think is the most likely. Jon becomes some kind of mystery. We're not allowed to see his game. Melisandre is the PoV.

I don't think we will have Jon's chapters with Ghost's body.

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What's the standing order for wildlings and the Night's Watch since old headless Jafer Flowers used Ser Jaremy Rykker as a pin cushion?  Burn the bodies. If Jon does warg Ghost, there seems to be little time for his furry rangings before the Men in Black decide to burn Lord Snow. Mel would have to revive him sooner than later. Ghost will stay there, whether Jon wargs or not. 

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21 hours ago, Mark of the West said:

What's the standing order for wildlings and the Night's Watch since old headless Jafer Flowers used Ser Jaremy Rykker as a pin cushion?  Burn the bodies. If Jon does warg Ghost, there seems to be little time for his furry rangings before the Men in Black decide to burn Lord Snow. Mel would have to revive him sooner than later. Ghost will stay there, whether Jon wargs or not. 

Yeah I’m thinking it’ll be hard to keep Jon’s body safe, unless Mel steps in to keep him from being burnt. Perhaps Edd wouldn’t burn him immediately? Ghost might have to do some ‘What’s that you say Skippy? Jon’s spirit is trapped in your body? And little Timmy’s fallen down a well? Crikey” … kind of thing :)

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On 10/6/2022 at 9:59 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

More of a quick question rather than speculation.

If we assume Jon will warg into Ghost for his POV chapters in The Winds of Winter, do we assume that Ghost will then leave Jon's body and go travelling North of the Wall? I know that's the general consensus among a lot of the fandom. But it seems like a long trek for a lone wolf to take, no? Now, I've read posts suggesting that Ghost himself may have warging powers, so  ... will Jon's chapters perhaps take us into the POVs of, say, Nymeria, Shaggydog and Summer? That would mean Jon's chapters get insights into goings on in the Riverlands, Skagos (even more, if Davos rescues Rickon), and North of the Wall via Summer. Could Jon/Ghost even warg some ravens and give us POVs from further afield? 

Basically it just seems like a looooong journey to get Ghost further north than Bran has gone already, and GRRM would make more efficient use of Jon/Ghost's POV by having him warg to various locations. It also solves the issue of having Ghost and Jon's bodies being too separated, as surely they would need to be close by in order for Jon to 'rejoin' his resurrected body (assuming - as most of us do - that this will happen). I know fans are waiting to explore the Lands of Always Winter via Jon/Ghost's POV but if he's warging ravens, for example, or Summer, then this could still be a thing.

What do you think guys? If we get warging POVs from Jon/Ghost in multiple locations, where else might he be able to see?

I imagine the Lands of Always Winter will be explored in Bran’s chapters.  He’ll be the one warging Ravens or whatever animal is needed to do his reconnaissance. 
 

If Ghost goes beyond the wall, I could see him crossing paths with the wildling skin changer who warged into his 1 eyed wolf for the last time.  Maybe Ghost will claim that pack as his own and eventually form a super pack with Nymeria’s Riverland pack?  
 

Talk about “a time for wolves”…

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Jon is not warging into Ghost. He's not dead. Just gravely injured. He will be out of commission until sometime in the last 1/4 of wow. he'll revive a little before the 3/4 mark, and be back in action sometime in the last few chapters. once he's up and aroud he'll be heading to winterfell with a force of wildlings and maybe some NW fighters, because he'll have gotten word that one or more - i predict all - of rickon, arya and sansa are there.

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 10/6/2022 at 8:42 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

My personal belief is that we are gonna lose Jon as a POV, simply because he will be going through drastical changes and critical times. That's why Melisandre may had been introduced as a POV: To replace Jon.

It would make an interesting situation for us, the readers, if we're not allowed into Jon's head anymore, just when it would be the most important. 

This may work well for George too, as he never seems to be keen on explaining magical stuff on his pages. It would stage a mistery that we might only bunk down along the way, instead of giving a clear and nailed down explanation to what exactly was the process of Jon's return.

At the very least it would be really interesting to not have the power of looking into Jon's head. It would certainly hype me up.

Agreed. I think we lose Jon as a POV. The same was true for Catelyn.

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  • 1 month later...

It's an incredibly one to predict but as things stand, the most important thing at the Wall that's keeping Jon alive / option to be revived is Mel seeing him in her visions and knowing he's important. I personally do believe Jon's dead and that at least the first POV we see for him is through Ghost. As mentioned above, there will be a real fight to burn Jon's body and so Mel doesn't have a lot of time to work her magic to revive him - whether this is done through the Rholler's magic alone, or through sacrifice I'm not yet sure. But regardless, I think Jon will be revived relatively soon into the book (Wall POV Chapter wise) and we'll only get a maximum of 2 chapters whilst he's dead (Ghost and Mel). I do like the theory that we lose Jon as a POV for a while in order to not show what's happening inside the head of a formerly dead man (similar to Lady Stoneheart).

 

The reason I think Jon is dead is purely to push and emphasise that he's served his life for the Watch and died "for the Watch". He's done his time at the Wall, done what he needed to do (get the Wildlings south and be that narrative at the Wall) and is a free man now to do what he needs to do next

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Jon's not dead.  Though I do think he's got to be silent for a good long while and there will be some very cryptic Ghost thoughts sprinkled about.  I'm not sure we will get a Ghost POV.  My head hurts just thinking about reading that.  No, I suspect Bran in Summer and Bran and maybe some misinterpreted Melisandre visions for Jon's wellness checks.  Maybe a weird Jojen green dream or two.  

I do understand the direct beauty of Jon's vows being fulfilled to the NW in being dead.  I think being stabbed by his own people is good enough.  Though I also think the small old school faction is about to experience their own reeducation on what the Nightswatch really is now and Jon won't actually have to disavow himself.   I see the NW becoming mobile and much closer to what it should be than what it was.  The Nights Watch is not a political order.  Once the political rats are tossed out on their ropes it will get down to the business of doing what it should be doing.  Ah growing pains.  

Jon on the other hand, may have to become a political being, particularly if magic is required to restore his health.  He may be torn from the Nights Watch as we saw in the moments prior to his stabbing.  He may get some of that near death woo woo and return a man on fire.  Hard to say what Jon will be, but I hope all the petty stuff, the bastardy, the vows, the one family over another foolishness falls away.  I think Jon is strong enough of character to have it all.  He could do a lot of good if he just went out and did it without all these rules holding him back from everything.  

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I don't think Jon is dead. GRRM has done fake out deaths several times. Heck he's done it twice with Davos, at least once with Arya, once with Brienne and Cat as well; though the last one kind of sticks...........kind of.

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I think it's important that he *is* dead.

After all, there is that prophecy...

"Fire and blood to wake the dragon"... "Two kings to wake the dragon".

And, not far south of here, we have two kings... uncrowned and uncrownable.

Stannis, the rightful King in King's Landing, heir to Robert since Cersei's sons are bastards, but half his kingdom does not recognise this, and even many of those that do recognise it *within his own kingdom* would rather accept the illegitimate boy-king Tommen as the man in possession, for the sake of stability, than go through yet another war for a man who brings a foreign religion and burns people to death (regardless of the fact that he has now apparently stopped doing so: "Pray harder, there will be no more burnings"). The only people willing to fight for Stannis - other than the few thousand he brought to the Wall with him - are Northerners, people whose own kingdom, the North, has actually seceded from the South of Westeros, who want him as a *neighbour* not an overlord.

And, for the second king, another uncrowned and uncrownable. Theon Greyjoy, missing believed dead at the time of the Iron Islands Kingsmoot, is the only one who can rightfully challenge Euron at the moot, because he had not been there to press his claim: he can claim to be Balon's rightful heir. However if he ever gets close enough to the Iron Islands to *make* that claim he will be laughed out of the moot, in his current physical condition. Like Stannis, he is a rightful king that can never actually be crowned.

In any case, Theon is about to be executed. Asha has not pleaded for his life: only for the mercy of a quick death, let him be beheaded in front of the heart tree. BLOOD.

And Stannis... well there is a lot of talk about whether he will burn Shireen at the stake, and whether or not this will be Melisandre's order. Forgetting the fact that, in conversation with Davos (in ASOS), Stannis has seen a vision in the flames: the only fire-vision to be granted to an atheist rather than a true believer. A vision of a burning KING - not a burning child-princess. I believe that Stannis is the one who will die in FIRE.

Two kings, to die in fire and blood... Two who will never sit their rightful thrones, and will never live as kings, but if they die, will *die* as kings... To wake the Dragon... the Bastard Dragon, Jon, son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but unacknowledged since Rhaegar would not *annul* his marriage to Elia (having a living son from her, the real Aegon who was killed by Gregor Clegane - a son who would be bastardized by an annulment, since the definition of annulment is to declare the marriage to have been void from the start, thus bastardizing its children): nor could he *divorce* Elia formally or legally (and bring a legal end to the legal marriage preserving his son's legitimacy) without his insane father's consent: nor marry Lyanna bigamously without the same.

Edited by JLE
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  • 3 months later...

A one or two chapters when he is warged in Ghost, but till last third/quarter of TWOW Jon remain dead. Personally I think we will see a "Dark Jon" and he will return "good" only  between TWOW epilogue and ADOS (meeting with Theon, Stannis likely death versus Others, return of Rickon and Sansa at WF etc)

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