Green Grace's Claim that the People of Meereen weren't always Slavers - Truth or a Lie?

[Corvo the Crow]

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[Ring3r]

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Over the course of thousands of years?

 

Absolutely.  Many of the fueds in our own world are 1500-4500 years old, and likely older, if our records were better.  One wrong begets another, begets another, and after a certain point, groups of people end up hating each other so much that they don't even care what started it, they just look for the next offense so they can respond in-kind.  It's a vicious cycle perpetuated by both sides, holding people accountable for actions their ancestors took, and it's incredibly hard to break.

I'd be shocked if Planetos were not the same.  I expect many of the fueds between civilizations and the ensuing slave trade and subjugation are traceable all the way back to the GEotD.

When the Green Grace says that Meereen was not always like this, rest assured, the unspoken part is "until they made us do it."  She's full of it.

[Evolett]

The Green Grace does not really have anything to gain by feeding Daenerys a false account of history. Meereen is a slaver city now, that's what counts, that's what Dany is fighting against and the Green Grace is well aware of this. I would think it possible for Dany to verify this information, should she feel the need to. That said, Daenerys could have done with a bit of educating on the people she intended  to rule. She marvelled at the tapestry showing Valyria before the Doom, given to her by Xaro. He was trying to make a point and I'm not sure she reflected on it. Did she read the histories of Westeros given to her by Jorah? 

A look at the Wiki reminded me of Astapor's, Yunkai's and Meereen's status as colonies of Old Ghis, meaning these may not have practiced slavery until their integration into the Ghiscari Empire. Old Ghis itself was only an island state that expanded inland. 

Quote

Old Ghis and its army proceeded to colonize its surroundings, then, pressing on, to subjugate its neighbors. Thus was the first empire born, and for centuries it reigned supreme.  tWoIaF

These cities might even have initially served as a source of slaves for the Ghiscari and probably for the Valyrians as well, only establishing themselves as slaver states after the Doom.  

[Bowen 747]

On 10/6/2022 at 5:38 PM, Craving Peaches said:

So I was wondering about something the Green Grace says to Daenerys.

This would imply that the people of Meereen were not always Slavers. Could this be true? Or is she just telling Daenerys what she thinks she wants to hear?

Ghis was already a slaving people before they lost to the Dragonlords. 

[Hrulj]

Slavery is a natural part of pre-industrial societies that allowed them to be great, succesful and develop leisurely pursuits like mathematics, monumental architecture, philosophy etc. I don't see a reason to judge it. 

As for Green Grace she's probably technically right, that Ghiscari weren't always primarily slavers. But they were slavers nonetheless. 

[frenin]

51 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

I don't see a reason to judge it. 

You don't see a reason to judge slavery? 

Are you going to compare slavery with rain next?

 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

Slavery is a natural part of pre-industrial societies that allowed them to be great, succesful and develop leisurely pursuits like mathematics, monumental architecture, philosophy etc. I don't see a reason to judge it. 

As for Green Grace she's probably technically right, that Ghiscari weren't always primarily slavers. But they were slavers nonetheless. 

Even in pre-industrial societies, it’s quite possible to create powerful civilisations by using free labour.  Western Europe had got rid of slavery by 1100, and serfdom (largely) by 1450.

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Evolett said:

The Green Grace does not really have anything to gain by feeding Daenerys a false account of history. Meereen is a slaver city now, that's what counts, that's what Dany is fighting against and the Green Grace is well aware of this. I would think it possible for Dany to verify this information, should she feel the need to. That said, Daenerys could have done with a bit of educating on the people she intended  to rule. She marvelled at the tapestry showing Valyria before the Doom, given to her by Xaro. He was trying to make a point and I'm not sure she reflected on it. Did she read the histories of Westeros given to her by Jorah? 

A look at the Wiki reminded me of Astapor's, Yunkai's and Meereen's status as colonies of Old Ghis, meaning these may not have practiced slavery until their integration into the Ghiscari Empire. Old Ghis itself was only an island state that expanded inland. 

These cities might even have initially served as a source of slaves for the Ghiscari and probably for the Valyrians as well, only establishing themselves as slaver states after the Doom.  

She’s trying to gaslight Daenerys by pinning the blame for Ghiscari slaving upon Dany’s own Valyrian ancestors.

Even if it were the case that Valyria brought slavery to Ghis (it is not) the Ghiscari elite have had four hundred years to end the practice.  Given that they only started to create the Unsullied after Valyria had fallen, they're actually worse than their former masters were.

Hers and Xaro’s arguments could easily be demolished by anyone with a working knowledge of political philosophy, but Dany is a poorly-educated 16 year old, who gets out-argued by this pair of sophists.

[Evolett]

  

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

She’s trying to gaslight Daenerys by pinning the blame for Ghiscari slaving upon Dany’s own Valyrian ancestors.

She's not pinning the blame entirely on the Valyrians. The Green Grace speaks specifically about land and soil degradation caused by the destruction of the cedar trees that once grew in the region and points out that these were destroyed by Old Ghis - the Old Empire as well as consumed by dragonfires during the wars. 

Quote

Without slaves, Meereen had little to offer traders. Copper was plentiful in the Ghiscari hills, but the metal was not as valuable as it had been when bronze ruled the world. The cedars that had once grown tall along the coast grew no more, felled by the axes of the Old Empire or consumed by dragonfire when Ghis made war against Valyria. Once the trees had gone, the soil baked beneath the hot sun and blew away in thick red clouds. "It was these calamities that transformed my people into slavers," Galazza Galare had told her, at the Temple of the Graces.

The OPs question is:

On 10/6/2022 at 11:38 PM, Craving Peaches said:

This would imply that the people of Meereen were not always Slavers. Could this be true? Or is she just telling Daenerys what she thinks she wants to hear?

Given that Meereen was subjugated by Old Ghis and a colony within the empire, it is indeed possible that they were not always slavers. The Green Grace's reference to the cedar trees in particular suggests cedar wood may have been a valuable source of income prior to colonisation and destruction of the trees (the ruined city of Velos on the Isle of Cedars had palaces built of cedar wood for instance). Additionally, environmental degradation caused by the loss of the trees would have reduced the amount of arable land available for cultivation, again indicating a possible reduction in income from food exports. The population of the slaver cities has dwindled over time and while they probably produce enough to get by now, the decline could be a long-term result of being unable to sustain a larger population with the resources they now have. 

So in conclusion, I think it likely the Meereenese were not always slavers. If anything, the Green Grace is making excuses for slavery but I wouldn't call that gaslighting Dany. 

 

 

 

[Craving Peaches]

25 minutes ago, Evolett said:

So in conclusion, I think it likely the Meereenese were not always slavers. If anything, the Green Grace is making excuses for slavery but I wouldn't call that gaslighting Dany. 

I think it all boils down to whether Meereen existed before the Empire of Ghis as an independent city-state or not. If so they may not have practiced slavery. But if they were just a Ghiscari colony then there would have been no point where they didn't practice slavery.

[Hugorfonics]

13 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Absolutely.  Many of the fueds in our own world are 1500-4500 years old, and likely older, if our records were better.  One wrong begets another, begets another, and after a certain point, groups of people end up hating each other so much that they don't even care what started it, they just look for the next offense so they can respond in-kind.  It's a vicious cycle perpetuated by both sides, holding people accountable for actions their ancestors took, and it's incredibly hard to break.

I'd be shocked if Planetos were not the same.  I expect many of the fueds between civilizations and the ensuing slave trade and subjugation are traceable all the way back to the GEotD.

What feud is 1500 years old? 

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Western Europe had got rid of slavery by 1100, and serfdom (largely) by 1450.

Lol. Western Europe didn't even reach their slave trading potential until 1450. 

 

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If so they may not have practiced slavery. But if they were just a Ghiscari colony then there would have been no point where they didn't practice slavery.

There's a difference between slavers and having slaves. Western Europe thrived in the 1500s because of slavery, the triangle trade and such. Almost the entire culture was an intermarry between Africa/middle east and the colonies. 

This is not the same slavers that William the conqueror outlawed, it's an entire business and way of life. That's what the ghiscari are like now, an entire culture revolves around slavery. 

So again, it's probable that the ancient ghiscari practiced slavery but it's incorrect to assume they were the infamous slavemakers we meet in asos (unsullied weren't a thing), (as far as the ghiscari are needed to introduce slavery to Valaryia, that strikes me as pretty ignorant and a tad racist)

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What feud is 1500 years old? 

Lol. Western Europe didn't even reach their slave trading potential until 1450. 

 

There's a difference between slavers and having slaves. Western Europe thrived in the 1500s because of slavery, the triangle trade and such. Almost the entire culture was an intermarry between Africa/middle east and the colonies. 

This is not the same slavers that William the conqueror outlawed, it's an entire business and way of life. That's what the ghiscari are like now, an entire culture revolves around slavery. 

So again, it's probable that the ancient ghiscari practiced slavery but it's incorrect to assume they were the infamous slavemakers we meet in asos (unsullied weren't a thing), (as far as the ghiscari are needed to introduce slavery to Valaryia, that strikes me as pretty ignorant and a tad racist)

Domestically, slavery was illegal, after 1100, in Western Europe.  Enslavement of non-Christians was legal, and Venice and Genoa practised the trade.

The slave trade became big business in the late 17th century, for England and France, but was trivial for both countries before then.

Medieval Western Europe is an example of a pre-industrial society that flourished without slavery. 

[Hugorfonics]

21 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The slave trade became big business in the late 17th century, for England and France, but was trivial for both countries before then.

I was thinking Portugal and Spain in the 15th. And after spending the entire middle ages trying to kick the muslims off the peninsula I think it was much less trivial for them then it should have been.

21 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Medieval Western Europe is an example of a pre-industrial society that flourished without slavery. 

Define flourished? Kept sending men to die in the crusades? Barley escaped the Black death?

 

Eta, 15 not 14

[SeanF]

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I was thinking Portugal and Spain in the 15th. And after spending the entire middle ages trying to kick the muslims off the peninsula I think it was much less trivial for them then it should have been.

Define flourished? Kept sending men to die in the crusades? Barley escaped the Black death?

 

Eta, 15 not 14

Flourished, in the sense of being much better places to live in, than Britannia and Galliae,  in the Roman Empire.   Both nations were able to build great palaces and cathedrals, produce poetry, music, and art, and do the stuff that Xaro argues can only be done through slavery.

[Craving Peaches]

8 hours ago, Hrulj said:

Slavery is a natural part of pre-industrial societies that allowed them to be great, succesful and develop leisurely pursuits like mathematics, monumental architecture, philosophy etc. I don't see a reason to judge it.

Ahh, the Qartheen argument.

The issue is, you can have all of those achievements without slavery, even in a pre-industrial society.

[Evolett]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think it all boils down to whether Meereen existed before the Empire of Ghis as an independent city-state or not. If so they may not have practiced slavery. But if they were just a Ghiscari colony then there would have been no point where they didn't practice slavery.

Not necessarily. Even if Meereen only came into being after that swath of land was conquered by Old Ghis, the possibility remains that Old Ghis originally farmed its colonies for slaves. 

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Not necessarily. Even if Meereen only came into being after that swath of land was conquered by Old Ghis, the possibility remains that Old Ghis originally farmed its colonies for slaves.

I was thinking of a colony as being like the Valyrian colonies, so a new settlement with a Ghiscari upper class who practice slavery. I don't know how it would work if they farmed their colonies for slaves. They would need administrators for the colonies at any rate, and these would probably be slave owning Ghiscari. So the average citizen of Meereen might not have been a slaver but I'm willing to bet the elite always were, unless it existed as it's own state before the Ghiscari got there.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I was thinking of a colony as being like the Valyrian colonies, so a new settlement with a Ghiscari upper class who practice slavery. I don't know how it would work if they farmed their colonies for slaves. They would need administrators for the colonies at any rate, and these would probably be slave owning Ghiscari. So the average citizen of Meereen might not have been a slaver but I'm willing to bet the elite always were, unless it existed as it's own state before the Ghiscari got there.

Even in recent times, I doubt if most Meereenese citizens are slave traders, or directly involved in the trade.  But, with a ratio of 1:5 free to slave, only a very poor citizen is unlikely to own at least one slave.

In Rome, ownership of a slave was what distinguished a citizen of the Fourth or Fifth Class, from the completely destitute Head Count.

 

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Flourished, in the sense of being much better places to live in, than Britannia and Galliae,  in the Roman Empire.   

Im not sure. I mean the life of a slave can't be worse but serfs aren't really living their best either. I always thought that medieval times would have been the worst time to live in history. Although that Gaul life doesn't sound great either lol.

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Both nations were able to build great palaces and cathedrals, produce poetry, music, and art, and do the stuff that Xaro argues can only be done through slavery.

True, Xaro is a greedy slave apologist who can't even fathom a world where greedy bastards like him don't run it.

Qarth may be greatest city that ever was or will be, but I don't believe it's because of slavery or the ironhold the elite have on the city, but through trade and the merging of cultures (although plenty of this trade is human trafficking and the merging of cultures is largely because of slavery... Lol)

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

The Green Grace would sugar coat their history in a way similar to how the Starks handled the scandal of the Night's King.  GG knows this young woman of Valyrian descent is anti-slavery.  She is not about to openly say her people had been enslaving since the beginning of time.  GG and Daenerys are adversaries.  GG was using verbal warfare and attempted to manipulate. 

Slaver's Bay is a static culture and what they are doing today they were doing thousands of years ago.  The three slaver cities may not be as large as the Old Ghis empire but the culture remains the same.  They were slave owner before the arrival of the Valyrians.  Cultures were exchanged between the two.  Ghis picked up the Valyrian language and Valyria picked up slavery.