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Green Grace's Claim that the People of Meereen weren't always Slavers - Truth or a Lie?


Craving Peaches

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5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Ahh, the Qartheen argument.

The issue is, you can have all of those achievements without slavery, even in a pre-industrial society.

I am by no means a slave apologist. Trust me...I despise the mere concept of kidnapping, enslavement and human trafficking.

But I understand the Qartheen argument. The reason why third world and second world countries exist is because first world countries had either an imperialist tradition or a definitive caste system of some sort that gave people the time and the space to develop and pursue such beautiful things like math, architecture, music, sports, etc,

There's not enough time in the day for a pre-industrial person pursue the arts and sciences, stay healthy and still be able to put food on the table and a roof over their heads. Shoot, even in the post-industrial, computerized world that some of us live in, there is STILL not enough time in the day for this.

...oh and let's not forget to mention that people back then had to find a way to defend themselves and their belongings from bad actors and opportunists.

People today need a lot of help in managing their lives. People back then needed thrice as much help as we do now. No wonder their lives were so short. They didn't have the luxury. Factor in all the rogues and malfeasants endemic to the human experience...then that's where we get servants and prisoners. And, as we all would have observed by now, a slave is a both a prisoner and a servant.

I say all this to say that I understand the logic and reasoning that led to the advent of slavery. It's still abhorrent to me but it makes sense.

Yes, a pre-industrial society can achieve great things and produce great works...but it's a very hard to do on such a large scale without there being an underclass. That's the real reason why the original native Americans were always so far behind, say, the European settlers. There is either no structured, socioeconomic tradition of slavery, serfdom or indentured servitude in those cultures or the tradition is so old and loosely defined that it basically doesn't exist.

And Medieval Western Europe is not a great example @SeanF seeing as they had serfs.

 

It's a whole part of the "poverty breeds crime, crime breeds poverty" argument. It's part of the reason why minority groups or people of certain social classes and standings can't get ahead in life and have so many problems.

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5 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Serfs aren't slaves. They are a more humane and more economically viable alternative to slaves.

True.

But an underclass is an underclass. Especially when said underclass is kept, well, underneath the upper class.

It also didn't help that the middle class (aka the class of merchants and uniquely skilled craftsmen) was so detestable to both the lower and upper classes that it really wasn't allowed to exist until the end of the 18th century. Aka the dawn of the industrial era.

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28 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I am by no means a slave apologist. Trust me...I despise the mere concept of kidnapping, enslavement and human trafficking.

But I understand the Qartheen argument. The reason why third world and second world countries exist is because first world countries had either an imperialist tradition or a definitive caste system of some sort that gave people the time and the space to develop and pursue such beautiful things like math, architecture, music, sports, etc,

There's not enough time in the day for a pre-industrial person pursue the arts and sciences, stay healthy and still be able to put food on the table and a roof over their heads. Shoot, even in the post-industrial, computerized world that some of us live in, there is STILL not enough time in the day for this.

...oh and let's not forget to mention that people back then had to find a way to defend themselves and their belongings from bad actors and opportunists.

People today need a lot of help in managing their lives. People back then needed thrice as much help as we do now. No wonder their lives were so short. They didn't have the luxury. Factor in all the rogues and malfeasants endemic to the human experience...then that's where we get servants and prisoners. And, as we all would have observed by now, a slave is a both a prisoner and a servant.

I say all this to say that I understand the logic and reasoning that led to the advent of slavery. It's still abhorrent to me but it makes sense.

Yes, a pre-industrial society can achieve great things and produce great works...but it's a very hard to do on such a large scale without there being an underclass. That's the real reason why the original native Americans were always so far behind, say, the European settlers. There is either no structured, socioeconomic tradition of slavery, serfdom or indentured servitude in those cultures or the tradition is so old and loosely defined that it basically doesn't exist.

And Medieval Western Europe is not a great example @SeanF seeing as they had serfs.

 

It's a whole part of the "poverty breeds crime, crime breeds poverty" argument. It's part of the reason why minority groups or people of certain social classes and standings can't get ahead in life and have so many problems.

 A serf is legally a person, a slave is legally a chattel.  For sure, some serfs have it worse than some slaves, but the philosophy behind serfdom and chattel slavery is different.  And, the reason I choose the mid 15th century is that even serfdom was fading away in Western Europe by then.

Granted, a debt slave, or a prisoner of war, made to labour until a ransom is paid, may have it better than a serf, but that kind of slave is again, treated as a person, rather than as a chattel.

What we see in the East is the most raw and unrestrained form of chattel slavery, grossly wasteful and inefficient, as well as vile.  Braavos and Oldtown prove that societies can prosper, without having it.

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

That's the real reason why the original native Americans were always so far behind, say, the European settlers. There is either no structured, socioeconomic tradition of slavery, serfdom or indentured servitude in those cultures or the tradition is so old and loosely defined that it basically doesn't exist.

Native Americans enslaved mad people before contact with Europeans, from continent to continent. But, like, especially the Aztecs. (but the Aztecs I wouldn't call a slaving culture because they focus on other stuff, compared to like the Comanche who enslaved for a living)

Also what do you mean by so far behind? For example, aztecs had indoor plumbing, the fact that Europeans didn't is just disgusting. 

Honestly the empires of South America fell because of disease and the Ramsay Bolton like level of evil genius/ridiculous luck of Cortez and Pizarro.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

And, the reason I choose the mid 15th century is that even serfdom was fading away in Western Europe by then.

 

What we see in the East is the most raw and unrestrained form of chattel slavery, grossly wasteful and inefficient, as well as vile.

Do you think it's coincidental that by the mid 15th century western Europe was giving birth to the largest slave trade this world has ever seen? A slave trade so large it'd make the ghiscari weep

32 minutes ago, Ring3r said:

I really don't wanna get this thread any more charged than it is, so I'm not gonna put it in the thread but if you're ok with a PM I'd be happy to send.

I think it's still kinda relevant, but if you wanna send a pm instead that's cool 

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10 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

True.

But an underclass is an underclass. Especially when said underclass is kept, well, underneath the upper class.

It also didn't help that the middle class (aka the class of merchants and uniquely skilled craftsmen) was so detestable to both the lower and upper classes that it really wasn't allowed to exist until the end of the 18th century. Aka the dawn of the industrial era.

Eh, you always have an underclass, no matter what. And kings generally relied on middle class to balance out the influence of the magnates - hence why they gave extensive rights to cities.

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14 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But, like, especially the Aztecs. (but the Aztecs I wouldn't call a slaving culture because they focus on other stuff, compared to like the Comanche who enslaved for a living)

Like sacrificing people. Supposedly the Aztecs were so bad that everyone else in the region teamed up with the Spanish to defeat them.

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4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Like sacrificing people

They did do that. So not to defend human sacrifices.... Buuut, it's a religious experience most of the time. Like prisoners of war I don't think get sacrificed, only pretty virgins who are all holy and ready for their afterlife.

This all sounds pretty farfetched however, especially when compared to their contemporaries, the inquisition, who also religiously brutalized their subjects. And I don't they liked it, so why would the Mexicans?

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Supposedly the Aztecs were so bad that everyone else in the region teamed up with the Spanish to defeat them.

Montezumo gets stoned to death by his people so maybe? Lol. I think that was after Cortez arrested him though and occupied the govt. 

I think it was mainly down to Ramsay tactics. So lying, coercion, lots of threats, and a bit of terror. 

 

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Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Like prisoners of war I don't think get sacrificed, only pretty virgins who are all holy and ready for their afterlife.

I thought the whole point of their wars was to take captives that they could sacrifice. They thought that the world would end if they didn't sacrifice enough people.

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Montezumo gets stoned to death by his people so maybe? Lol. I think that was after Cortez arrested him though and occupied the govt.

Other peoples in the region, including the Tlaxans(?) joined the Spanish against the Aztecs. Montezuma's own people also rebelled against him.

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16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I thought the whole point of their wars was to take captives that they could sacrifice. They thought that the world would end if they didn't sacrifice enough people.

Really? Lol crazy pagans. But enemy prisoner I guess is more acceptable to sacrifice then pretty virgin subjects.

Compared to contemporary crazy christian conquistadors, they also wanted to conquer the world before it was surely soon to be over. (Or at least conquer Jerusalem, although Im not sure what that has to do with Mexico City...)

24 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Other peoples in the region, including the Tlaxans(?) joined the Spanish against the Aztecs. Montezuma's own people also rebelled against him.

But I think it was largely through Ramsay Bolton like behavior. Coercion, deceit, etc (Like Wyman Manderly and Lady Dustin are working for Ramsay, but they definitely don't want)

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

(Or at least conquer Jerusalem, although Im not sure what that has to do with Mexico City...)

Gold. Lots of gold.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

But I think it was largely through Ramsay Bolton like behavior. Coercion, deceit, etc (Like Wyman Manderly and Lady Dustin are working for Ramsay, but they definitely don't want)

It was definitely a part. Everyone was fed up with him and the Aztecs.

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33 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Gold. Lots of gold.

Word. Also souls. But mainly exploitation.

40 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It was definitely a part. Everyone was fed up with him and the Aztecs.

Not everyone, right? There were battles and Cortez experienced some hiccups 

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Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Not everyone, right? There were battles and Cortez experienced some hiccups

Well obviously not 100% but as soon as the other people in the area saw the Aztecs could be beaten they all teamed up with the Spanish to do so. Then the other Aztecs got fed up with Montezuma because of his relationship with the Spanish.

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On 10/9/2022 at 9:01 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Ahh, the Qartheen argument.

The issue is, you can have all of those achievements without slavery, even in a pre-industrial society.

On 10/9/2022 at 2:01 AM, SeanF said:

Even in pre-industrial societies, it’s quite possible to create powerful civilisations by using free labour.  Western Europe had got rid of slavery by 1100, and serfdom (largely) by 1450.

Europe based its culture on Greece and Rome, a renowned slaving and genocidal empires and not on their own germanic ancestors who were freemen and their direct genetic predecesors. Rome and Greece were the centers of scholarly pursuits and higher learning as well. Europe spent milenia pursuing the glory of Rome and seeking to recreate it. 
Ancient China was a slaving empire, and again, a center of scholarly learning. Babylon, Assyria, Egypt.

You wanna argue it's due to cross-contact. Sure. So lets look at Americas. The only true advanced civilizations in Americas by the time of European arival that developed complex science, phylosophy and religion were Aztecs, Mayans and Incans, and civilizations impacted by them, all of which had slavery, or in case of Inca - forced labor to the nation without personalized slavery - slavery. Even Missisipians that built Cahokia mounds practiced slavery. The free nations of America that had no slaves practiced none of it. Many even failed to adopt simple things as agriculture. To say slavery didn't help develop pre-industrial world is height of folly. Name a great civilization that didn't practice slavery or benefit from others that practiced it. 

On 10/9/2022 at 1:18 AM, frenin said:

You don't see a reason to judge slavery? 

Are you going to compare slavery with rain next?

 

 

Pretty much. It's a natural state of human being. Slavery didn't start and end with American chattel race based slavery. Nor is Ghiscary slavery based on it. Slaves of Ghis are more akin to Greek slavery where they're allowed to practice their skilled trades if they have them and even reach good living standards as opposed to American slavery where everyone worked the plantation fields. 

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1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

Europe based its culture on Greece and Rome, a renowned slaving and genocidal empires and not on their own germanic ancestors who were freemen and their direct genetic predecesors. Rome and Greece were the centers of scholarly pursuits and higher learning as well. Europe spent milenia pursuing the glory of Rome and seeking to recreate it. 
Ancient China was a slaving empire, and again, a center of scholarly learning. Babylon, Assyria, Egypt.

You wanna argue it's due to cross-contact. Sure. So lets look at Americas. The only true advanced civilizations in Americas by the time of European arival that developed complex science, phylosophy and religion were Aztecs, Mayans and Incans, and civilizations impacted by them, all of which had slavery, or in case of Inca - forced labor to the nation without personalized slavery - slavery. Even Missisipians that built Cahokia mounds practiced slavery. The free nations of America that had no slaves practiced none of it. Many even failed to adopt simple things as agriculture. To say slavery didn't help develop pre-industrial world is height of folly. Name a great civilization that didn't practice slavery or benefit from others that practiced it. 

 

Pretty much. It's a natural state of human being. Slavery didn't start and end with American chattel race based slavery. Nor is Ghiscary slavery based on it. Slaves of Ghis are more akin to Greek slavery where they're allowed to practice their skilled trades if they have them and even reach good living standards as opposed to American slavery where everyone worked the plantation fields. 

Ghiscari slavery is portrayed as extremely cruel and wasteful of human life. The slaves are murdered, raped, castrated, tortured, for the profit and amusement of a tiny number.  Slavers Bay itself produces very little contribution to human civilisation.  It resembles Mordor, more than Alexandria. The hunt for slaves fuels warfare across the continent and piracy at sea.

In this world, slavery benefits a tiny number, and harms a much greater number.

And the most advanced places, like Braavos and Oldtown, are free, not slave.  Slave cities like Volantis and Qarth, are decaying.

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1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

Europe based its culture on Greece and Rome, a renowned slaving and genocidal empires and not on their own germanic ancestors who were freemen and their direct genetic predecesors. Rome and Greece were the centers of scholarly pursuits and higher learning as well. Europe spent milenia pursuing the glory of Rome and seeking to recreate it. 
Ancient China was a slaving empire, and again, a center of scholarly learning. Babylon, Assyria, Egypt.

You wanna argue it's due to cross-contact. Sure. So lets look at Americas. The only true advanced civilizations in Americas by the time of European arival that developed complex science, phylosophy and religion were Aztecs, Mayans and Incans, and civilizations impacted by them, all of which had slavery, or in case of Inca - forced labor to the nation without personalized slavery - slavery. Even Missisipians that built Cahokia mounds practiced slavery. The free nations of America that had no slaves practiced none of it. Many even failed to adopt simple things as agriculture. To say slavery didn't help develop pre-industrial world is height of folly. Name a great civilization that didn't practice slavery or benefit from others that practiced it. 

 

Pretty much. It's a natural state of human being. Slavery didn't start and end with American chattel race based slavery. Nor is Ghiscary slavery based on it. Slaves of Ghis are more akin to Greek slavery where they're allowed to practice their skilled trades if they have them and even reach good living standards as opposed to American slavery where everyone worked the plantation fields. 

Your factual, historical understanding of things is solid (although there were many slaves in the American South that served in positions more respected than common laborers, much like the Greek model) and I like that you're not making the mistake of judging people in the past according to our modern situation.....that said....

Maybe you're pushing that a little too hard?  Or maybe it's an issue of wording?  While it's true that a huge number of modern people, if raised in the environment of the past, would act exactly the same as people back then (humans have never changed), I don't think it's fair to outright pretend that the modern outrage over historical slavery is nonsense.  It isn't. Societal organization has changed, and while the reason for that change is more due to technological advancement rather than humans actually getting better....at least we can all agree now that slavery is bad and we should do everything possible to avoid devolving back to that economic model.  I suspect you agree, and I absolutely think Dany would, if she were a real person.

It's just a matter of...if she's gonna break that wheel....she has to be able to replace it with something so the entire economy does not collapse.  She's completely failed at that, so far.  It's honestly her biggest failing, politically.  She's good at destroying bad things but she's not really done a damn thing to build something new.  That's pointed out in the text, and it's a very real issue she'll need to solve to avoid devolving into just another despot.

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14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Ghiscari slavery is portrayed as extremely cruel and wasteful of human life. The slaves are murdered, raped, castrated, tortured, for the profit and amusement of a tiny number.  Slavers Bay itself produces very little contribution to human civilisation.  It resembles Mordor, more than Alexandria. The hunt for slaves fuels warfare across the continent and piracy at sea.

In this world, slavery benefits a tiny number, and harms a much greater number.

And the most advanced places, like Braavos and Oldtown, are free, not slave.  Slave cities like Volantis and Qarth, are decaying.

 Hardly. That is Daenary's POV. A notorious hater of slavery. Slavers bay was a better place during slavery than after her liberation as attested by many who lived in both. 

4 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Come again? You don't see a reason to judge slavery? 

Why don't you try being a slave for a few years and tell us your opinion afterwards? 

I was held in heliodrom concentration camp from 92 till 94, does that count? 

3 minutes ago, Ring3r said:

Your factual, historical understanding of things is solid (although there were many slaves in the American South that served in positions more respected than common laborers, much like the Greek model) and I like that you're not making the mistake of judging people in the past according to our modern situation.....that said....

Maybe you're pushing that a little too hard?  Or maybe it's an issue of wording?  While it's true that a huge number of modern people, if raised in the environment of the past, would act exactly the same as people back then (humans have never changed), I don't think it's fair to outright pretend that the modern outrage over historical slavery is nonsense.  It isn't. Societal organization has changed, and while the reason for that change is more due to technological advancement rather than humans actually getting better....at least we can all agree now that slavery is bad and we should do everything possible to avoid devolving back to that economic model.  I suspect you agree, and I absolutely think Dany would, if she were a real person.

It's just a matter of...if she's gonna break that wheel....she has to be able to replace it with something so the entire economy does not collapse.  She's completely failed at that, so far.  It's honestly her biggest failing, politically.  She's good at destroying bad things but she's not really done a damn thing to build something new.  That's pointed out in the text, and it's a very real issue she'll need to solve to avoid devolving into just another despot.

Where have I ever suggested we should have slavery today? I was clearly speaking within historical context. Slavory in modern industrial and post industrial age is a wasteful abomination. Westeros, Esos and others are not post industrial tho. And as history shows slavery lead to leisure class and following that - development of science and other pursuits. Just saying slavery bad because its bad today is like I said, folly. She clearly made lives worse for everyone, brought war and starvation, famine, the land is failing, cause she decided to just abolish a milennia old institution overnight. 

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3 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

Where have I ever suggested we should have slavery today? I was clearly speaking within historical context. Slavory in modern industrial and post industrial age is a wasteful abomination. Westeros, Esos and others are not post industrial tho. And as history shows slavery lead to leisure class and following that - development of science and other pursuits. Just saying slavery bad because its bad today is like I said, folly. She clearly made lives worse for everyone, brought war and starvation, famine, the land is failing, cause she decided to just abolish a milennia old institution overnight. 

You misunderstand me.  I was trying to provide additional context for people to understand what your POV was.  It's very hard for modern people to put themselves in the shoes of somebody 1600 years ago.  I was merely trying to provide a little more historical perspective so people didn't mob you.

Controversy is great, it leads to dialog, and dialog leads to understanding and understanding leads to cooperation.  Just trying to help that along....within the confines of our favorite fictional universe.

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