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Green Grace's Claim that the People of Meereen weren't always Slavers - Truth or a Lie?


Craving Peaches

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2 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

I was held in heliodrom concentration camp from 92 till 94, does that count? 

15 minutes ago, Ring3r said:

Sure. 

It simply annoys me when I see the claim that slavery is good and/or tolerable when it permits a society to develop. It may very well do so, but at very human cost. 

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5 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Sure. 

It simply annoys me when I see the claim that slavery is good and/or tolerable when it permits a society to develop. It may very well do so, but at very human cost. 

100% agree.  I don't think he was trying to say it was good....and I'm certainly not.  It was a step humanity took that ended up leading to modernity. The human condition is flawed, and sometimes very deeply so. I simply think that a full, deep examination of causes will result in a better understanding of human limitations moving forward....what we're capable of (good and bad) and things we can do to avoid the bad.

That's something that Dany is failing at, thus far.  She's correctly identified problems but she hasn't found an actual solution yet, judging by what's happened to the areas she conquered and then left.

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4 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

 Hardly. That is Daenary's POV. A notorious hater of slavery. Slavers bay was a better place during slavery than after her liberation as attested by many who lived in both. 

I was held in heliodrom concentration camp from 92 till 94, does that count? 

Where have I ever suggested we should have slavery today? I was clearly speaking within historical context. Slavory in modern industrial and post industrial age is a wasteful abomination. Westeros, Esos and others are not post industrial tho. And as history shows slavery lead to leisure class and following that - development of science and other pursuits. Just saying slavery bad because its bad today is like I said, folly. She clearly made lives worse for everyone, brought war and starvation, famine, the land is failing, cause she decided to just abolish a milennia old institution overnight. 

The slaves don’t want slavery back.  Thousands of freedmen fight against it.  None of them fight to bring back the masters.

There’s no POV through which killing thousands of children  each year to create the Unsullied looks good;  nor feeding them to bears;  nor raping bedslaves;  nor kidnapping Lhazareen and people at sea.

The slavers look vile through the eyes of Barristan, Quentyn, and Tyrion just as much as through Dany’s eyes.

Martin is not writing an apology for slavery. The people who lament its abolition are former masters, not freedmen. My sympathies are 100% with the freedmen.

As to real life, my sympathies lie far more with Spartacus and the Haitians, than they do with Marcus Crassus and the French.  The fact that slavery can only be maintained through the application of terror should tell you something about it.

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30 minutes ago, Ring3r said:

Your factual, historical understanding of things is solid (although there were many slaves in the American South that served in positions more respected than common laborers, much like the Greek model) and I like that you're not making the mistake of judging people in the past according to our modern situation.....that said....

Maybe you're pushing that a little too hard?  Or maybe it's an issue of wording?  While it's true that a huge number of modern people, if raised in the environment of the past, would act exactly the same as people back then (humans have never changed), I don't think it's fair to outright pretend that the modern outrage over historical slavery is nonsense.  It isn't. Societal organization has changed, and while the reason for that change is more due to technological advancement rather than humans actually getting better....at least we can all agree now that slavery is bad and we should do everything possible to avoid devolving back to that economic model.  I suspect you agree, and I absolutely think Dany would, if she were a real person.

It's just a matter of...if she's gonna break that wheel....she has to be able to replace it with something so the entire economy does not collapse.  She's completely failed at that, so far.  It's honestly her biggest failing, politically.  She's good at destroying bad things but she's not really done a damn thing to build something new.  That's pointed out in the text, and it's a very real issue she'll need to solve to avoid devolving into just another despot.

But, she does replace it, with agriculture, building, weaving, trade treaties etc. Slaves can enter guilds, and be paid to serve in the army.

It’s the masters who are utterly determined that slavery must be re-established.  It’s they, not the ex-slaves, who bellyache about the economy.  And it’s they who resort to extreme violence to bring slavery back.

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

But, she does replace it, with agriculture, building, weaving, trade treaties etc. Slaves can enter guilds, and be paid to serve in the army.

It’s the masters who are utterly determined that slavery must be re-established.  It’s they, not the ex-slaves, who bellyache about the economy.  And it’s they who resort to extreme violence to bring slavery back.

Nah.  She left.

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29 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Sure. 

It simply annoys me when I see the claim that slavery is good and/or tolerable when it permits a society to develop. It may very well do so, but at very human cost. 

It’s not even true.  The standard of living of the average Frenchman or Englishman c.1400, without slavery, was a lot better than that of his Roman counterpart, with slavery.

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31 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Sure. 

It simply annoys me when I see the claim that slavery is good and/or tolerable when it permits a society to develop. It may very well do so, but at very human cost. 

That human cost is far outweighed by benefits to humanity it offers. 

20 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The slaves don’t want slavery back.  Thousands of freedmen fight against it.  None of them fight to bring back the masters.

There’s no POV through which killing thousands of children  each year to create the Unsullied looks good;  nor feeding them to bears;  nor raping bedslaves;  nor kidnapping Lhazareen and people at sea.

The slavers look vile through the eyes of Barristan, Quentyn, and Tyrion just as much as through Dany’s eyes.

Martin is not writing an apology for slavery. The people who lament its abolition are former masters, not freedmen. My sympathies are 100% with the freedmen.

As to real life, my sympathies lie far more with Spartacus and the Haitians, than they do with Marcus Crassus and the French.  The fact that slavery can only be maintained through the application of terror should tell you something about it.

Yeah it does tell me that it's an institution based on choice to live as a slave or die free. The fact that trough history many chose to live as slaves than die or kill themselves to avoid it should also tell you how people felt about either of those choices. 

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It’s not even true.  The standard of living of the average Frenchman or Englishman c.1400 was a lot better than that of his Roman counterpart.

Thanks to the black death wiping out half of Europe and handing power back into peasants hands. Previous centuries were worse. But even ignoring that - science and human progress stagnated for a thousand years. We could've colonized the stars, solved poverty, racism and cured many a disease and human issue if we didn't stagnate for that period. 

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10 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

That human cost is far outweighed by benefits to humanity it offers. 

Yeah it does tell me that it's an institution based on choice to live as a slave or die free. The fact that trough history many chose to live as slaves than die or kill themselves to avoid it should also tell you how people felt about either of those choices. 

Thanks to the black death wiping out half of Europe and handing power back into peasants hands. Previous centuries were worse. But even ignoring that - science and human progress stagnated for a thousand years. 

There were  no benefits to humanity, through Crassus nailing 6,000 people up along the Appian Way, or thousands of Haitians dying annually through overwork, and your arguments are frankly, disgusting, elitist, and inhumane.  You appear to be completely lacking in empathy for people who get forced into slavery, raped, tortured, and worked to death.

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16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It’s not even true.  The standard of living of the average Frenchman or Englishman c.1400, without slavery, was a lot better than that of his Roman counterpart, with slavery.

True. How do you see serfdom as contrasted with slavery? I'm curious. 

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Just now, Jaenara Belarys said:

True. How do you see serfdom as contrasted with slavery? I'm curious. 

Legally, a serf was a person, not a chattel.  It was a state of unfreedom, but better than chattel slavery.

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25 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There were  no benefits to humanity, through Crassus nailing 6,000 people up along the Appian Way, or thousands of Haitians dying annually through overwork, and your arguments are frankly, disgusting, elitist, and inhumane.  You appear to be completely lacking in empathy for people who get forced into slavery, raped, tortured, and worked to death.

There literally isn't an advanced ancient society that didn't benefit from slavery. All science and technology originates from them. Keep telling yourself that 

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6 hours ago, Hrulj said:

There literally isn't an advanced ancient society that didn't benefit from slavery. All science and technology originates from them. Keep telling yourself that 

What you mean is that a very tiny number benefitted from slavery, while a very large number suffered.

The growth of the latifundia in Italy, worked by slaves, actually impoverished many free smallholders.  The profits of slavery and foreign conquest fuelled electoral bribery and civil war in the last century of the Roman Republic.  Three servile wars led to the deaths of tens of thousands of free people and slaves, and the devastation of property.

So, no.

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On 10/6/2022 at 2:38 PM, Craving Peaches said:

So I was wondering about something the Green Grace says to Daenerys.

This would imply that the people of Meereen were not always Slavers. Could this be true? Or is she just telling Daenerys what she thinks she wants to hear?

I don't believe it. The old woman was trying to play games just like the old toad in Dorne.  It worked in Dorne because Rhaenys was weak.  Daenerys is a child but she is very smart.  

Daenerys tried to play nice and give the Meerenese a chance to do the right thing and accept a new way without the evils of slavery.  Most of the Meerenese are starting to adapt and accept but the Harpy are terrorists who want the old, evil ways to return.  The next step is to eliminate the entirety of the Harpy organization.  

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4 hours ago, Hrulj said:

own germanic ancestors who were freemen and their direct genetic predecesors

The German tribes did have slaves though...

4 hours ago, Hrulj said:

To say slavery didn't help develop pre-industrial world is height of folly

I don't think anyone claimed this, what they claimed was that it was possible to have artistic and cultural achievements without slavery, which it is.

4 hours ago, Hrulj said:

Pretty much. It's a natural state of human being.

So is having no agriculture, no rights, living until you are ~20, etc...

 

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

What you mean is that a very tiny number benefitted from slavery, while a very large number suffered.

The growth of the latifundia in Italy, worked by slaves, actually impoverished many free smallholders.  The profits of slavery and foreign conquest fuelled electoral bribery and civil war in the last century of the Roman Republic.  Three servile wars led to the deaths of tens of thousands of free people and slaves, and the devastation of property.

So, no.

That tiny number is all that matters for human progress. They're the inventors, phylosophers and those that move society forward. 

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The German tribes did have slaves though...

I don't think anyone claimed this, what they claimed was that it was possible to have artistic and cultural achievements without slavery, which it is.

So is having no agriculture, no rights, living until you are ~20, etc...

 

After contact with slaver societies there was indeed some slave owning. 

It absolutely is - after slavery. No slaveless society ever advanced if it wasn't on products of slavery. 

 

Yeah, sucks to live there doesnt it. 

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2 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

After contact with slaver societies there was indeed some slave owning. 

I think they owned them before contact with the Romans though. Tacticus mentions their use in religious rituals.

3 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

It absolutely is - after slavery. No slaveless society ever advanced if it wasn't on products of slavery. 

How would you explain Braavos in the book then? Never had slavery, never had contact with a slaving society until they'd already established themselves.

4 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

Yeah, sucks to live there doesnt it. 

Yes indeed.

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17 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

That tiny number is all that matters for human progress. They're the inventors, phylosophers and those that move society forward. 

 

Okay.  So on the one hand, we have mass deportations , civil war, slave revolts, torture, rape, and impoverishment of the free poor.

On the other, we get some works of poetry and philosophy written by slave owners.

There’s a lot of literature that suggests slavery retards economic progress.  The profits of slavery go into conspicuous consumption by the elite, who have no incentive to invent things or create new ways of working, because they have captive labourers.

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