How did Aegon conquer westeros with 3 dragons and 1 year but the valyrians took decades to conquer Ghis with hundreds of dragons?

[astarkchoice]

On 10/9/2022 at 7:00 AM, Tyrosh Lannister said:

How did Aegon conquer westeros (except Dorne) with 3 dragons and 1 year but the valyrians took decades, 5 wars to conquer Ghis with hundreds of dragons? Ghis is also smaller than westeros. This all does not make sense. 

Multiple factors could be at play here.

The ghiscari may have had millions to throw at the valyrians, it may have been a time with more knowledge of fighting dragons too  (digging trenches with plentiful water  ,scorpions, archersl squads aiming at riders, looser formations used  etc) . Its strongly suggested more currently arcane knowledge such as magic was more widespread (may explain quarth survival and the dead dragon in the red waste) use of asssasins and of course the obvious that dragons are a lot less lethal of they can be caught on the ground and swarmed!

 

Finaly the wars seem spread out over a vast region and starting when valyria was young and probably had less dragons...as it grew stronger it built until their dragon numbers meant the 5th war toppled the ghiscari empire forever

 

[Bowen Marsh]

On 10/9/2022 at 3:31 PM, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

The previous replies are dancing around and avoiding the answer they know to be true but don't want to give. It is quite simple.  The lock step legions of Old Ghis were very, very good.  They were better than anything the 3 Targaryens faced during their conquest of the Westerosi.  Valyria and its hundreds of dragons took a few hard tries before Ghis was defeated.   Look at the training of the Unsullied from Astapor to see how tough those legions must have been.  The Valyrians were fighting a very professional army who has had the best training possible.  Like Dany's own Unsullied infantry.  Aegon and his sisters were facing a brave but less trained combination of armies.  The field of fire only killed 4000 men and a few more died from their wounds.  So about 5000 and that was enough to force a surrender.  The total casualties were less than a fraction of just one khalasar.  One khalasar.  Westeros is less populated and it is dependent on reserves for most of what it can take to battle.  There is just no comparison to the might of Old Ghis.  Truthfully, Dany could retake Westeros without her dragons.  The Unsullied, a few large khalasars, some sellswords, trained ex-slaves, and allies from among the noble families would be enough.

 

She can and she may choose to do so.  There is really no standing army in Westeros that could put up a good fight against the khalasars.  She has many men whom she liberated from slavery who are training to fight for her.  Those will be dedicated to her cause.  Many more will join as she marches to the west.  Her Unsullied are the best infantry in the known world. 

[Bowen Marsh]

On 10/9/2022 at 2:00 AM, Tyrosh Lannister said:

How did Aegon conquer westeros (except Dorne) with 3 dragons and 1 year but the valyrians took decades, 5 wars to conquer Ghis with hundreds of dragons? Ghis is also smaller than westeros. This all does not make sense. 

It all makes perfect sense.  Westeros is a very backwards land and its armies are not the equivalent of the legions of Ghis.  Discipline wins wars and Dany has the advantage in any confrontation because of her Unsullied infantrymen. 

Dany's ancestors had to make do with the small manpower they had on Dragonstone and they still whooped Westerosi ass.  Even the Starks decided it was best to surrender. 

The Unsullied of today and the Legions of the Ghiscari are better soldiers than anything alive that Westeros can put together.  The most formidable army in Westeros are the White Walkers and their wights. 

 

[Corvinus85]

On 10/9/2022 at 1:47 AM, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Valyrians have dragons. They are like nuclear weapons. Hundreds of nukes. Easy to conquer Ghis. What did Ghis have ? You don't really need soldiers. Just fly your dragons over the ghiscari and burnt them all.easily kill tens of thousands of people. Conquering Ghis would be a piece of cake like conquering the rhoynar. We don't know if Ghis used any magics. If they did use, what was it ? Rhoynar used water magic and failed. Ghis used strong harpy magics ? Magically enhanced scorpion bolts ? 

First, we don't know what the claims for each war was. Many wars in ancient/medieval times were generally fought for land or other economic benefits. It could have been that the first war or two were over some islands in the Slaver's Bay and then things got serious. When I read that text I immediately thought that GRRM was inspired by the Punic Wars: it took 3 wars for Rome to obliterate Carthage, where Carthage started with a stronger navy and at one point had the best general. And the first war was over land that both cities claimed.

So as to other factors, I'll agree with some of the things that have been said:

• Old Ghis likely had a better trained land army, and likely a stronger, larger fleet. Valyria and Old Ghis are separated by a large bay so either invade by sea or go around through the north which is a hill country and could easily be defended. The dragonlords could simply fly across and burn, but they can't really hold land with just that tactic.
• While the Valyrians were expansionists, they don't strike me as extremely aggressive expansionists, more like opportunists who are merciless with those who provoke them and then take their land. (Much like Rome) So perhaps they were slow in developing their dragon military.
• Maybe Old Ghis had at one point one or two good leaders who managed to keep things afloat with good military strategy and other political machinations.
• As to them maybe having secret weapons, well there is a reason they worship a harpy. There may have been harpies back then, and they fought for Ghis. And perhaps along with destroying Old Ghis, the Valyrians also wiped out the harpy race.

[Aldarion]

12 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

She can and she may choose to do so.  There is really no standing army in Westeros that could put up a good fight against the khalasars.  She has many men whom she liberated from slavery who are training to fight for her.  Those will be dedicated to her cause.  Many more will join as she marches to the west.  Her Unsullied are the best infantry in the known world. 

Yeah, no. Unsullied and the Dothraki will get slaughtered in Westeros, unless they are backed up by something far more competent than themselves.

https://fantasyview.wordpress.com/2020/08/16/clash-of-empires-daenerys-vs-westeros-conventional-forces/

[AlaskanSandman]

On 10/8/2022 at 11:00 PM, Tyrosh Lannister said:

How did Aegon conquer westeros (except Dorne) with 3 dragons and 1 year but the valyrians took decades, 5 wars to conquer Ghis with hundreds of dragons? Ghis is also smaller than westeros. This all does not make sense. 

Even more fascinating is that Aegon could have conquered Westeros faster if his intentions were otherwise. If had not sought to bind the 7 kingdoms under 1 and simply vanquish his foes regardless of whether any one was left to follow the new order. 

Valyria sought to wipe out Ghis, which is completely different than what Aegon was doing.

So it is a wonder how the Valyrians weren't able to stop the Ghiscari sooner.

[astarkchoice]

15 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

It all makes perfect sense.  Westeros is a very backwards land and its armies are not the equivalent of the legions of Ghis.  Discipline wins wars and Dany has the advantage in any confrontation because of her Unsullied infantrymen. 

Dany's ancestors had to make do with the small manpower they had on Dragonstone and they still whooped Westerosi ass.  Even the Starks decided it was best to surrender. 

The Unsullied of today and the Legions of the Ghiscari are better soldiers than anything alive that Westeros can put together.  The most formidable army in Westeros are the White Walkers and their wights. 

 

The unsullied are sorta a big ?

We.know they are castrated yet can march and do endurance training that would test a modern day athlete somehow!

Winds of winter exerts hints that new ghis legions can form squares vs heavy cavalry thus we must assume as carbon copies of the unsullied the real thing can do that too.

Vs westerosi infantry who are full time professionals they will be physicaly  weaker, less armoured and less diverse (westerosi will be mix of archers, pike,spear and sword) 

Their advantages will be mobility due to being able to speed  march for longer periods than most (their endurance training is stupidly excessive). The westerosi infantry are full time pros but they do have lives whereas the unsullied have only training thus we can assume while weaker man for man they are more skilled and far better drilled to form up and fight as one unit! We can also assume that somehow despite haveing lower testosterone they can fight longer due to their comicaly excessive training regieme! 

[The Commentator]

On 10/9/2022 at 2:00 AM, Tyrosh Lannister said:

How did Aegon conquer westeros (except Dorne) with 3 dragons and 1 year but the valyrians took decades, 5 wars to conquer Ghis with hundreds of dragons? Ghis is also smaller than westeros. This all does not make sense. 

Westeros is not as strong militarily as the legions of Ghis. Part-time soldiers and knights of varying skills are not a match for the legions who fought like Dany’s Unsullied will today.  The quality and skills of the Unsullied are guaranteed. You cannot even say that about the knights in Westeros.  A large percentage of those knights got their spurs through politics and connections.  

[The Commentator]

The Dothraki will just run through the defenses of Westeros, which will break and run. That is, the ones who have not already broken form and ran when Dothraki arrows came down on their heads. The Unsullied will move forward in perfect formation.  There will be four types of Westerosi left on the battlefield: the dead, the dying, the ones on their knees switching sides, and those who just soiled themselves in fear.  

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

The Dothraki will just run through the defenses of Westeros, which will break and run. That is, the ones who have not already broken form and ran when Dothraki arrows came down on their heads.

Why? How?

I think they have more of a spine than that.

4 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

There will be four types of Westerosi left on the battlefield: the dead, the dying, the ones on their knees switching sides, and those who just soiled themselves in fear.  

I don't think so. Also Westerosi make up part of Daenerys' forces so they wouldn't be part of these categories.

[astarkchoice]

4 hours ago, The Commentator said:

Westeros is not as strong militarily as the legions of Ghis. Part-time soldiers and knights of varying skills are not a match for the legions who fought like Dany’s Unsullied will today.  The quality and skills of the Unsullied are guaranteed. You cannot even say that about the knights in Westeros.  A large percentage of those knights got their spurs through politics and connections.  

Feudal armies are largely full time professionals , the knights train from birth in multiple.forms.of.combat and they are all physicaly stronger and better armoured  than the unsullied will be and have a wider variety of arms to.combine.

 

That said to balance that out  grmm has made the unsullied comicaly op for eunuchs with commando like stamina. The fact they have had nothing but training will mean theyl be better man for man skill wise  than most infantry (given that even  feudal professionals have rich lives outside of training and the unsullied dont) and drilled as  unit to machine like precision. 

[Ring3r]

On 10/11/2022 at 3:45 PM, astarkchoice said:

Feudal armies are largely full time professionals , the knights train from birth in multiple.forms.of.combat and they are all physicaly stronger and better armoured  than the unsullied will be and have a wider variety of arms to.combine.

 

That said to balance that out  grmm has made the unsullied comicaly op for eunuchs with commando like stamina. The fact they have had nothing but training will mean theyl be better man for man skill wise  than most infantry (given that even  feudal professionals have rich lives outside of training and the unsullied dont) and drilled as  unit to machine like precision. 

I agree that the Unsullied do seem overpowered for what they are.  Castrating a male prior to puberty very much limits muscle-mass and aggression, because they never go through puberty and their testosterone levels remain low.  That's not a recipe for a good soldier.  A good house-servant, sure....but not a soldier.

But the Unsullied are widely recognized as fantastic soldiers.  Just floating an idea, but is it possible that there is some kind of blood-sacrifice of their dangly-bits going on, to imbue them with unnatural prowess?

[The Gizzard of Oz]

On 10/9/2022 at 2:00 AM, Tyrosh Lannister said:

How did Aegon conquer westeros (except Dorne) with 3 dragons and 1 year but the valyrians took decades, 5 wars to conquer Ghis with hundreds of dragons? Ghis is also smaller than westeros. This all does not make sense. 

The capabilities of Westeros is over rated.  The elite fighting force of Westeros are the knights and they are very over rated.  Martin has been carefully showing us that armor does not mean invincible.  Ser Vardis and Gregor had quality armor and still lost to men who were not covered in steel.  Oberyn used a spear and techniques he learned from the east to beat the giant.  The elite fighting force of Old Ghis were legions like Dany's Unsullied.  They have nothing of that level of training in Westeros.  Three dragons and a small force were enough to bring Westeros to surrender.   

[Arthur Peres]

If the Valyrians were like the Targeryans we got, they may have been busy fighting civil wars at every 10 years...

[X-Buster]

4 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

The capabilities of Westeros is over rated.  The elite fighting force of Westeros are the knights and they are very over rated.  Martin has been carefully showing us that armor does not mean invincible.  Ser Vardis and Gregor had quality armor and still lost to men who were not covered in steel.  Oberyn used a spear and techniques he learned from the east to beat the giant.  The elite fighting force of Old Ghis were legions like Dany's Unsullied.  They have nothing of that level of training in Westeros.  Three dragons and a small force were enough to bring Westeros to surrender.   

Dayne lost to a crannogman with a spear.  He was armored.  Rickard got b'cued inside his. He got cremated courtesy of his king.  The same thing will happen to those knights. 

[astarkchoice]

19 hours ago, Ring3r said:

I agree that the Unsullied do seem overpowered for what they are.  Castrating a male prior to puberty very much limits muscle-mass and aggression, because they never go through puberty and their testosterone levels remain low.  That's not a recipe for a good soldier.  A good house-servant, sure....but not a soldier.

But the Unsullied are widely recognized as fantastic soldiers.  Just floating an idea, but is it possible that there is some kind of blood-sacrifice of their dangly-bits going on, to imbue them with unnatural prowess?

Who knows ? maybe the wine stuff they drink everyday is a medieval steriod 

They will be very low testosterone wise , we can assume the training has a high mortality rate and whats left are those with excellent genes who if left uncut woulda been beasts! The training seems.to focus on endurance , skill and pain resistance so theyd be like a force of women except exceptionaly skilled

[Corvo the Crow]

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[Corvo the Crow]

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[astarkchoice]

Ok so a further look at the unsullied.

Says they fight in lockstep like the legions of old which hints at an oldstyle phalanx which is an odd formation given its emphasis on pushing for low test eunchs  to adopt. We also know from the winds of winter exerts that the ghis legions can form up spear  blocks  to meet heavy horse so we can assume the unsullied can do the same, it would also stand to reason they can adjust to form shield walls for missiles. For all their physical weakness we can assume they are drilled to absolute perfect to form up to any of these very rapidly as well as pushing and fighting as one unit.

They train in the '3 spears' and short sword which could be anything from a regular spear and 2 types of throwing spear or maybe one throwing, one regular and one long pike/sarissa style. Grmm.would need to clear this up

Armour wise they seem to have a bronze spiked cap which we can assume hasnt moved to steel as a tradition. They have a quilted tunic armour  which given the medieval setting and being right next to the lamb men's territory we can assume a woolen gambeson which actualy would be very similar to what westerosi infantry will wearing.

 

 

 

[Darth Sidious]

The main question has been capably answered. Aegon was able to conquer Westeros rather easily with much less because the West is not as powerful as Old Ghis. Daenerys will come with more military resources at her disposal during a time when Westeros is much weaker.