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[SPOILERS] Rings of Power: "I am Sauron" "I'm Sauron" "I'm Sauron!"


Ser Drewy

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I’ve seen some people accuse this show of being anti-Irish because of the Harfoots. I didn’t even realize those were Irish accents (Nori’s actress is Australian, so that might just be her take on a British accent. Peter Dinklage didn’t nail the accent either, but it sounded pleasant enough that everyone just kind of overlooked it). The Irish accents I’m used to hearing are the ones from immigrant movies (i.e. Brooklyn) so my perception may be off.

Halbrand’s accent is (presumably) another screw in the mystery box. He doesn’t sound as low-brow as Bronwyn, but he’s not as posh as the elves either. 
 

In the OT, I barely registered that Sam was speaking with a British accent (or Aragorn, for that matter). Since he’s supposed to be “common,” it makes me think if this harkens back to how linguists believe that the British peasantry from the 1700s had what is now considered a southern American accent, which is how it ended up here (not sure how the plantation owners got it too though).

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I can confirm that at least one of my Irish friends continues to generally boycott the show for its depiction of rural lovable dopes with pretty cheesey Oi-rish accents. His mum's family have roots as Travelers and he's fiercely proud of that culture, which he feels is being belittled by the Harfoots' depiction.  I told him that as a Norn Irish lad he should instead be delighted at how many Americans are enjoying Derry Girls now (with subtitles of course) and not worry about the generally lovable Harfoots. I personally don't think the showrunners or writers were consciously or subconsciously belittling Irish or specifically Travellers by opting to attach their accent to that group of characters, and that one fellow has been the only one I'm aware of who's called the show out for it.

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With the current direction of RL politics I'm not going to blame someone with Traveller heritage for people particularly vigilant on that front.

I think the main reason I don't want Halbrand to be Sauron is that I'm more interested in his story as Halbrand. That the violent outburst in Numenor was the actions of a man that's done a lot of things he regrets and doesn't want to stir that shit up in himself again, rather than someone evil that's relishing the chance to let his true nature shine. That as the king in exile he hadn't stayed pure, that as Leofric suggested he's actually bent the knee to Adar in the past and killed his own to survive. I think that continues to work as a foil for Galadriel - someone whose intent never broke but pursuit of their righteous cause leads them into the darkness and has to claw their way back contrasted against someone who did break and walked in the darkness to survive but never wanted to be there and fled as soon as they could.

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3 hours ago, Argonath Diver said:

Halbrand has had some suspicious moments since his rescue, but I can't wrap my head the dark lord's grand plan to be out in the vastness of the Sundering Seas just waiting to presumably cause his own shipwreck out near where he thinks Galadriel might reject her trip west. It's just an utterly ludicrous introduction to the central character to the entire show's plotline. Halbrand simply being Halbrand and destined for Nazgulification makes more sense and keeps his reason for being so far out at sea more sensical.

The only way one can rationalise Halbrand as Sauron is to work with the idea that this is Sauron trying to repent, and doing it imperfectly.

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4 hours ago, Argonath Diver said:

and that one fellow has been the only one I'm aware of who's called the show out for it.

 

I mean, the title of the RoP topic on another forum I frequent is 'The Irish accents in Rings of Power are shit'. It's definitely come up in a few places.

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It might be a cultural misunderstanding, to be honest. The showrunners are American and most Travelers/Romani were identified by their religion and nationality when they came here, to the point where the other designation was all but forgotten. They might not have even realized the implications. I have an ironically personal example for this: when I was in high school, my grandmother randomly mentioned one day that her grandparents were Romani. I had no idea. That probably meant a lot in Eastern Europe, but once they got to the US, they just became another pair of normie Jews from the Bronx. The word “gypsy” isn’t used much here, but when it is, it’s usually positive, and refers to someone who’s adventurous and free-spirited.

The Irish part is also probably unintentional (one of the showrunners has the name McKay, after all). But maybe the Irish accents really are shit, because I didn’t even realize that’s what they were supposed to be :dunno:

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It’s worth noting that Irish travellers and Roma gypsies are not the same thing and shouldn’t be conflated. 
 

It is a curious choice for the Harfoots to be ‘Irish’, but I think the logic is sound, if you view Celtic as a more ancient and original language of the British isles you can transplant that model to how it would evolve into the Hobbit accent which is usually more of a Somerset / Cornish version of English. There is some cultural insensitivity there but the makers might have been a bit unaware of the implications of their choices.

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45 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It might be a cultural misunderstanding, to be honest. The showrunners are American and most Travelers/Romani were identified by their religion and nationality when they came here, to the point where the other designation was all but forgotten. They might not have even realized the implications. I have an ironically personal example for this: when I was in high school, my grandmother randomly mentioned one day that her grandparents were Romani. I had no idea. That probably meant a lot in Eastern Europe, but once they got to the US, they just became another pair of normie Jews from the Bronx. The word “gypsy” isn’t used much here, but when it is, it’s usually positive, and refers to someone who’s adventurous and free-spirited.

The Irish part is also probably unintentional (one of the showrunners has the name McKay, after all). But maybe the Irish accents really are shit, because I didn’t even realize that’s what they were supposed to be :dunno:

This wouldn't be an excuse, I'm afraid. It would just show a lack of research or concern.

I'm not sure myself if the Harfoot accents are specifically supposed to be Irish or just in that range of generic 'British rural' accents that includes Irish, West Country, travellers, etc. It doesn't put me off, I put it in the 'cultural hangover' box along with villains having upper class English accents, dwarves being Scottish, Elves doing RP, etc. but if I were Irish it might well be something I'd be unable to ignore.

(ps the stereotypical uses of 'gypsy' you mention above are actually pretty problematic, rather than positive.)

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7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’ve seen some people accuse this show of being anti-Irish because of the Harfoots. I didn’t even realize those were Irish accents (Nori’s actress is Australian, so that might just be her take on a British accent. Peter Dinklage didn’t nail the accent either, but it sounded pleasant enough that everyone just kind of overlooked it). The Irish accents I’m used to hearing are the ones from immigrant movies (i.e. Brooklyn) so my perception may be off.

Halbrand’s accent is (presumably) another screw in the mystery box. He doesn’t sound as low-brow as Bronwyn, but he’s not as posh as the elves either. 
 

In the OT, I barely registered that Sam was speaking with a British accent (or Aragorn, for that matter). Since he’s supposed to be “common,” it makes me think if this harkens back to how linguists believe that the British peasantry from the 1700s had what is now considered a southern American accent, which is how it ended up here (not sure how the plantation owners got it too though).

In Hollywood terms, being Irish is unquestionably a good thing.  Just as being Scottish or Australian is. Being English is acceptable, unless one is upper class, in which case, one is usually the villain. And, that's fine.  Who doesn't love Nero in Quo Vadis, or Edward I in Braveheart, or Young Cunningham in Rob Roy?

The hobbits, I have no doubt, are meant to be seen as the good guys.

Sometimes, it's better not to attempt foreign accents.  Dick van Dyke was not a convincing cockney, in Mary Poppins.

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In Hollywood terms, being Irish is unquestionably a good thing.  Just as being Scottish or Australian is. Being English is acceptable, unless one is upper class, in which case, one is usually the villain. And, that's fine.  Who doesn't love Nero in Quo Vadis, or Edward I in Braveheart, or Young Cunningham in Rob Roy?

The hobbits, I have no doubt, are meant to be seen as the good guys.

Yes, but...

Think of the film trilogy. Sam, good guy. Salt of the earth. Solid. Brave. Dependable. Sincere. Absolutely top at being a supporting character, but undoubtedly a supporting character. Working class rural accent.

Frodo, the lead: no rural accent.

Bilbo in The Hobbit: no rural accent.

Rural accents are a good thing... for certain characters. You'll never see the real hero with one. Only the sidekick.

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Thats the point isn't it, the UK has a wide variety of accents and there are a number of inbuilt stereotypes already built into the British psyche that act as shorthand for different personality types. I guess we have just exported this across the pond into Hollywood.

Cornish/Somerset = Simple country folk, good honest but distrusting of modernity
Scottish / Northern = Gruff and dependable, hates the soft southerns with their posh accents
Birmingham / Midlander = er.. no comment
London / South east = Educated but soft and weak. 
Upper class = Beings of pure evil. 

.. oh I forgot Cockney londoners = Thieves and ruffians.. basically orcs.

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

In Hollywood terms, being Irish is unquestionably a good thing.  Just as being Scottish or Australian is. Being English is acceptable, unless one is upper class, in which case, one is usually the villain. And, that's fine.  Who doesn't love Nero in Quo Vadis, or Edward I in Braveheart, or Young Cunningham in Rob Roy?

The hobbits, I have no doubt, are meant to be seen as the good guys.

Sometimes, it's better not to attempt foreign accents.  Dick van Dyke was not a convincing cockney, in Mary Poppins.

Pretty much every period piece or fantasy uses English accents, regardless of what country they’re set in. If villains have English accents, it’s to make them sound more formidable (i.e. Grand Moff Tarkin). When Hollywood wants to parody someone, they usually use southern or exaggerated NYC accents. (Granted, vampires also tend to be southern, but I think that’s Anne Rice’s fault).

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1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Having learned that Pharazon is the last king of Numenor, is it safe to assume that Miriel, or at least her father, isn’t long for this world? Is the monarchy not hereditary in Numenor?

The Monarchy of Numenor is absolutely hereditary.  Ar-Phârazon simply didn’t care.

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12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Having learned that Pharazon is the last king of Numenor, is it safe to assume that Miriel, or at least her father, isn’t long for this world? Is the monarchy not hereditary in Numenor?

Not safe to assume that in full, no.

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25 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Having learned that Pharazon is the last king of Numenor, is it safe to assume that Miriel, or at least her father, isn’t long for this world? Is the monarchy not hereditary in Numenor?

Spoiler

Pharazôn forced Míriel to marry him and took the throne of Númenor.

 

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I don't want Halbrand to be Sauron.

I don't want it to be like Galadriel made this huge mistake by believing in the possibility of redemption, and the goodness of another. I don't want her to be duped, any more than I want the audience to be. Not over this.

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