[SPOILERS] Rings of Power: "I am Sauron" "I'm Sauron" "I'm Sauron!"

[Lord Varys]

Wow, is this an utter shitshow.

- Some document depicting a family tree proves there are no heirs to the royal dynasty of 'the Southlands'? So they also say there were no hidden offspring, no illegitimate branches, no mistakes make by some Elven scribes?

I guess everything written on paper is true by default!

- Making the Three the first Rings made is utter nonsense. I mean, even I thought that a series named 'The Rings of Power' would get that basic premise right.

- Galadriel actually realizing the Aragorn-lookalike is Sauron and then not telling anyone is utter horseshit, too. It made so little sense that I originally thought the awakened Galadriel wasn't Galadriel at all but Sauron who had stolen her identity.

Here they should have gone with her losing her trust in the guy, but with the others buying his shit once the first Ring of Power works.

What I did like was 'Sauron' talking about 'a gift' to Celebrimbor. The general take of Sauron wanting to be good, of Sauron actually regaining his confidence and starting to believe in himself because of his exchanges with Galadriel also helps.

This they could have used to considerable effect if Galadriel had actually concluded or decided that the guy had or could change.

They could have made it so that Galadriel only realized that Sauron wanted to dominate and control the Elves once the effects of the Nine and the Seven was becoming apparent when more and more Elves were wearing them in season 2.

[Le Cygne]

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think the goal was to shock the viewers as much as possible. They couldn’t hint at Halbrand being Sauron until now because that would have made it less surprising. I think a lot of screenwriters took the wrong lesson away from the Red Wedding.

Halbrand looking like Aragorn and being a long-lost king was definitely set up as part of the subversion. But at the same time, I think that Hollywood overestimates just how much people want to be shocked. I’d reckon more people would have preferred a second Aragorn to a secret dark lord, just like how they like having another ginger dwarf and kind-hearted hobbit.

Good point. Yeah, I think they would have preferred a second Aragorn.

I think people would have preferred an honorable Galadriel, too. They sullied her character all along, but especially in the finale, and sadly, they will think that's who she really is.

I bet a lot of people didn't realize what happened in the last moments of the show. It was so illogical and it all happened so fast, and then they jingled the keys with a pretty shot of the rings.

I was confused myself, I was like, did they already forge the other rings before the Sauron reveal? Did Galadriel tell Elrond off screen? What the hell is happening? And I knew the real story.

Every now and then something really good comes along, but it could come along more often if they cared to really think about what people wanted to see. Too bad they don't care.

(Just wanted to add this, they could have just used the source material.)

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Wow, is this an utter shitshow.

- Some document depicting a family tree proves there are no heirs to the royal dynasty of 'the Southlands'? So they also say there were no hidden offspring, no illegitimate branches, no mistakes make by some Elven scribes?

I guess everything written on paper is true by default!

- Making the Three the first Rings made is utter nonsense. I mean, even I thought that a series named 'The Rings of Power' would get that basic premise right.

- Galadriel actually realizing the Aragorn-lookalike is Sauron and then not telling anyone is utter horseshit, too. It made so little sense that I originally thought the awakened Galadriel wasn't Galadriel at all but Sauron who had stolen her identity.

Here they should have gone with her losing her trust in the guy, but with the others buying his shit once the first Ring of Power works.

What I did like was 'Sauron' talking about 'a gift' to Celebrimbor. The general take of Sauron wanting to be good, of Sauron actually regaining his confidence and starting to believe in himself because of his exchanges with Galadriel also helps.

This they could have used to considerable effect if Galadriel had actually concluded or decided that the guy had or could change.

They could have made it so that Galadriel only realized that Sauron wanted to dominate and control the Elves once the effects of the Nine and the Seven was becoming apparent when more and more Elves were wearing them in season 2.

It might have been better if the audience learned that Halbrand was Sauron in the finale, but Galadriel doesn’t figure it out until much later. As it is, I found it weird how quickly she came to mistrust him considering she overlooked everything else that was suspicious about him up until then. If anything, she should have been more suspicious of Celebrimbor than Halbrand. 

We saw just how tempted Galadriel was by the ring in LOTR. Considering both her anger and personal connection with Halbrand, she should have been far more tempted by his offer than she was. Instead, they played it off as her being worried about being cast out by the people who already don’t like her. Her immediately reverting back to steely-eyed determination after finding out the truth was very emotionally unsatisfying. There should have been shock, betrayal, heartbreak. Instead we just got more of the same. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

While ROP hasn’t spawned the online mass fandom that GOT did, I think people are underrating its success. The newest Nielsen ratings for Sep. 12-18 puts it second behind Cobra Kai: 

https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/cobra-kai-season-5-ratings-house-of-the-dragon-rings-of-power-1235402590/amp/

I see this as a big deal because these ratings are only for the US. ROP had very little buzz here—if you look at the Google Trends, ROP’s were pathetically low, much more so than HOTD, yet more people are watching the former. Maybe that’s because these are only streaming numbers, but the disconnect between the ratings and the online buzz would suggest that ROP has an older audience, who are less likely to use streaming services over regular TV in the first place. I found a Tweet that mentioned a few more interesting details about both ROP and HOTD’s audiences:

With ROP’s audience skewing so much older, it’s hard to discern how well-received the show is. But I’m willing to bet that as long as Amazon promotes it heavily enough, most of them will return to watch next season.

One irony for both shows though is that despite focusing heavily on female leads, they seem to have less female viewers than their predecessors. I love fanart, which is a heavily female-dominated community, and there’s remarkably little fanart for ROP (compare that to the Hobbit trilogy, which spawned tons of it). There’s more for HOTD, but still far less than GOT.

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It might have been better if the audience learned that Halbrand was Sauron in the finale, but Galadriel doesn’t figure it out until much later. As it is, I found it weird how quickly she came to mistrust him considering she overlooked everything else that was suspicious about him up until then. If anything, she should have been more suspicious of Celebrimbor than Halbrand. 

Yeah, once I read the spoilers there I thought the viewer would realize that he was Sauron on the basis of multiple clues (the whole gift thing there basically was a nod towards Annatar).

What little we know about Eregion and the smiths is that Galadriel and Celeborn originally founded the place, with Galadriel eventually being driven out by Celebrimbor and his guild because she was mistrusting Annatar's motives and opposing the projects began by Celebrimbor.

Even if they couldn't do *exactly that* - there is so much potential for conflict and nuance and story-telling there during the Ring-forging era that it is really flabbergasting that they effectively rushed through this in just one episode.

11 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

We saw just how tempted Galadriel was by the ring in LOTR. Considering both her anger and personal connection with Halbrand, she should have been far more tempted by his offer than she was. Instead, they played it off as her being worried about being cast out by the people who already don’t like her. Her immediately reverting back to steely-eyed determination after finding out the truth was very emotionally unsatisfying. There should have been shock, betrayal, heartbreak. Instead we just got more of the same. 

I found the whole 'queen temptation' pretty cheap, actually. The temptation should have been Galadriel being willing to believe that this guy could actually be good. And Sauron does no bad job there, claiming that Morgoth had effectively enslaved him.

But, well, they never thought about something as complex as that. They could have had a Galadriel starting out with a clear cut good vs. evil take on things, only for her to get a more nuanced, more complex take on things thanks to her journey, resulting in her wanting to believe Sauron, and remaining silent about his true identity because she wanted to give him a chance.

Having a Sauron who was outright admitting that there was no difference between ruling and, what was it, rebuilding, helping, gives away that he is nothing but authoritarian freak.

The thing is - the texts we have on Sauron in the SA do imply the guy actually didn't want to be another Morgoth while he was Annatar. He wanted to heal what had been destroyed, but he quckly or eventually concluded that it would be all under his dominion because the army of the Valar left and nobody made any intention of returning ... something he took as permission by the authorities that Middle-earth was now his to take care of.

And to be sure - Sauron is a different type of Dark Lord than Morgoth. Morgoth wanted to twist and destroy, was motivated by his jealousy of the other Valar and his personal beef with Eru Ilúvatar who had refused to give him dominion of the kingdom he coveted (not to mention not giving him the power create on his own).

Sauron was original one of Aule's Maiar - like Saruman - and is thus more bureaucrat of evil. He wants that things work smoothly according to his design and thinks that he is best suited to make decisions for the benefit of all (as he sees it).

The show is also pretty pathetic in the advertisement they are making. There are commercials on radio for this show over here in Germany. That you get very rarely for a TV show, if it all - and it indicates they are really desperate to make this a success.

[Caligula_K3]

I know I'm in the minority on this board, but I thought it was a strong finale and overall a good first season. Halbrand as Sauron has been completely foreshadowed since like... episode 4, and I thought the reveal was handled well.

The season's biggest problem was the pacing. This episode had a lot of momentous events, and it would have breathed much better if the forging of the rings had occurred over at least two episodes. Similarly, it would have been nice if Gandalf had been captured by Eminem am episode earlier, so you'd have more time to develop him learning about himself. Then a lot of the repetitive Southlands stuff could have been condensed, and there would have been less of the harfoots just walking. 

Otherwise, they need to work on the cheese factor. It's a hard balance with Tolkien, because frankly, Tolkien is cheesy. But next season: no slow-mo should be allowed. No weird shots of Halbrand and Galadriel screaming at each other. 

Other than those two things, yeah, it was a good season. It created a cast of likeable and charming characters, from Durin to Elrond to Elendil to Nori ans Poppy, who will form a good basis for future seasons. The show didn't always succeed with Galadriel, but I appreciate that it tried at something more interesting with her. I really enjoyed her dynamic with Halbrand all season, especially given my feeling that he was Sauron the whole time. And now we have two really strong villains: Halbrauron and Adar. There is so much potential there for a season 2 plotline in which they fight for control of Mordor and the future of the orcs.

And although I called Halbrand being Sauron, that's fine by me. It's still a fun twist, well set up, that sets the stage for interesting character dynamics between Galadriel and Sauron. And the show already had one fantastic twist with the creation of Mordor. I'm excited for season 2- and for what it's worth, just about everybody I know in real life is too, from Tolkein geeks to completely casual viewers. 

[fionwe1987]

22 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Tolkien is cheesy. 

Inevitably, when adapted like this. In an adaptation that tried to pay attention to the themes that interest him? The cheesiness would have been way less.

For instance, it is absolutely incredible that we see not a single elf object, on any grounds whatever, to this plan with the Rings. Even Gil Galad just wants more time. 

It's an utterly rubbish interpretation of the tale, and that makes all the false portentousness cheesy, because none of it is remotely thematically consistent, or earned. 

[Lord Varys]

Sauron as reluctant 'evil guy' running away from his destiny is just nonsense, really. He would never do that ... and one could even make a case that this guy could not possibly do this.

I mean, there is worldbuilding and lore behind those angelic beings the Valar and Maiar and Dark Lords are. The Istari had to be fully incarnated to kind of hide their true nature from the peoples of Middle-earth, and even then their power was apparent. Nobody ever viewed them as just a bunch of old men.

Sauron would not only never fully incarnate himself in such a manner ... he might not even be able to do so. If he did that, he might not even able to forge his One Ring because to much of his substance was already part of his incarnate body.

A Sauron appearing as nothing but a humble mortal man is not the kind of guise he would ever contemplate wearing ... nor a shape he could effectively use to play the role of Annatar.

Annatar wasn't some dude, he was a guy whose Maia-nature was clear, people just didn't know/didn't suspect/didn't want to believe he was Sauron. They thought he was kind of what the Istari of the TA were. In fact, with them dragging an Istar who might even be Gandalf into this setting, it would have been so easy to introduce a Sauron posing as an Istar messager from the Valar, with the Elves possibly even expecting somebody like that.

The brief scenes of the Aragorn lookalike charming Celebrimbor are the most hilarious of the entire show so far - Celebrimbor would listen to any advice such a guy had to offer, And if he realized that this guy had to offer anything of substance, well, then he would react as if an ape was suddenly speaking Classical Latin. He would get suspicious, assuming that this guy might be everything ... but not some mortal man.

This high magic, high Elvish art, never tried before, nothing humans could even hope to contemplate, much less accomplish.

A mortal guy would not even understand what the problem of the Elves is - the whole issue of the Fading of the Elves should be just mysterious mumbo-jumbo to somebody like him.

[Le Cygne]

Tolkien's well-loved stories explored fairy tales, folklore, and mythology. Peter Jackson stayed faithful to the language and plots in LOTR, and the result was a well-loved series of movies that will be watched long after this tacky show.

[Caligula_K3]

26 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Inevitably, when adapted like this. In an adaptation that tried to pay attention to the themes that interest him? The cheesiness would have been way less.

 

I'm not saying it's a bad thing that Tolkein is cheesy. It's part of what I love about his writing. But yes, a story in which one character inevitably begins every conversation with "I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn, Elassar, Dunadan, Isildur's heir,  wielder of the sword that was broken," and in which every character bursts out into song routinely, is cheesy. And it's a tone that's hard to adapt in a modern TV show, especially since Tolkein's dialogue style requires a poet (and maybe a scholar of languahe) to truly replicate. Jackson struggled with it, the show struggled with it, any adaptation of Tolkein will struggle with it.

[Cas Stark]

I did think that this episode was possibly the least boring of the season.  I watched it in one go, unlike most episodes that were tough to get through.  I really don't see the Sauron actor having the chops to be Sauron.  He's fine as an Aragorn swashbuckling type, but a once in a few thousand years villain?  I don't see it.

[Scott_N]

4 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Otherwise, they need to work on the cheese factor. It's a hard balance with Tolkien, because frankly, Tolkien is cheesy.

Have you read The Sil or Lost Tales? Cheesy is not what comes to mind. The Hobbit may be cheesy but it is a children's book.

[Scott_N]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The thing is - the texts we have on Sauron in the SA do imply the guy actually didn't want to be another Morgoth while he was Annatar. He wanted to heal what had been destroyed, but he quckly or eventually concluded that it would be all under his dominion because the army of the Valar left and nobody made any intention of returning ... something he took as permission by the authorities that Middle-earth was now his to take care of.

I'm not sure it does imply that he didn't want to be another Morgoth/dark lord. Yes, he said he wanted to heal what had been destroyed but the motivation is two-fold: Firstly, the eternal jealously and resentment of Eru - neither Morgoth nor Sauron can create life, they can only degrade and mimic it. Secondly, through proposing to heal the world, gain by deceit (as he and his master have done so many times previously) and always with the obvious ambition of him ruling this new world single-handedly.

[karaddin]

The Hobbit is actually one of the published novels though, those other works are not a proper novel as such. And Tommy B is cheesy, I am no man is cheesy etc. It's not a measure of quality, it's a style.

To say something nice about the show - I thought they did a decent job setting up Poppy as the future path finder of the Harfoots. She was clearly interested and paying attention to Saddoc in the first couple of episodes, and her travelling song contrasts nicely against the much more simplistic chant of Saddoc's. His "nobody goes off trail, and nobody walks alone [unless they fall behind in which case they're dead to us]" was called out by a YouTuber as not being very Tolkeinesque but her song was quite poetic with the "not all who wander and wonder are lost" fits much better and can work as showing she's suited to it.

That's plenty of set up for a very minor side plot with a character we might not see again.

[Isis]

16 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

No. Those scenes were written by the same writers who decided Sauron would be disguised as Halbrand. They didn't make the decision at the last minute and get locked in by scenes they had previously aired!

But this was a wholly invented thing by the show. The descendents of Feanor are easily flattered morons, per the show. This is great because?

That is not relevant here. What characters? We have ciphers here, not characters.

I did not say that. Or perhaps I wasn't clear enough for you. I was referring to the time we existed in between viewing the 7th and 8th episodes where we did not know for certain that Halbrand was actually Sauron, therefore he could have been Sauron or he could have been someone else (e.g. some wanted him to turn out to be the King of the Dead or a Nazgul or whatever). We existed in a limbo where multiple outcomes were possible. I was making the point that those other outcomes (i.e. where Halbrand was NOT Sauron) began to make less and less sense by the time we had seen seven episodes because really why would we have seen so much screen time for such minor roles. I couldn't see how they could make that work. I'm sorry this was confusing for you.

Celebrimbor gets seduced by Sauron. That's what Tolkien wrote. 

NB If you didn't find my comment about Lost relevant to you (i.e. you didn't wish to say anything about that show), there was no need to respond to that point? I was not comparing the two shows. I was making a comment about Lost in its own right as people keeping bringing it up and using it as a means of insulting other shows.

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

I have only watched parts of the episode, so can anybody explain why the all Rings of Power would be susceptible to Sauron?  In Tolkien it is because they were all based on Sauron's design, in this shitshow he just makes a suggestion about using alloys. It is because mithril contains the evil of the Balrog?

 

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I did think that this episode was possibly the least boring of the season.  I watched it in one go, unlike most episodes that were tough to get through.  I really don't see the Sauron actor having the chops to be Sauron.  He's fine as an Aragorn swashbuckling type, but a once in a few thousand years villain?  I don't see it.

In my head canon, Annatar should be like Alec Guinness playing Mephistopheles.

[Isis]

23 hours ago, Werthead said:

The Stranger being Gandalf is somewhat tedious. I'd have much preferred him being one of the Blue Wizards and the final revelation is that he has to find his missing brother. That's not entirely off the table, but the "follow your nose," line strongly suggests he is Gandalf (unless it's a general Istari saying, but that was never established in the OG Jackson or Tolkien material).

I was ambivalent about this right up until the finale, mostly hoping that it would turn out that he was A N Other Istari. But, much like the Halbrand is Sauron reveal it begins to be nonsensical if it does not happen. I mean, he's spent so much time hanging with Harfoots/Hobbits that it would be a bit weird if it wasn't Gandalf (obviously he isn't going to call himself Gandalf). On balance, I'm not overly fussed about it being him.

22 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I would be OK with Halbrand = Sauron because of the little clues from previous episodes, but again, WHAT THE HELL WAS HE DOING ON A SHIP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SEA? We are not told exactly what Adar did to "split him open" and Sauron's words about seeking redemption by healing Middle-earth are difficult to believe. Did he try to cross the ocean to ask forgiveness of the Valar? And the sea monster was basically their response? I posted an opinion a few weeks ago that maybe we could have had an interesting show if told from Sauron's perspective and this episode reinforces that opinion.

Did the actor who plays Halbrand/Sauron always have this accent? I could swear his accent was fluctuating from line to line.

Yes. They've not answered WHY he would be on a raft there at all. Was he trying to get to Numenor? Was he following an elven ship heading to Valinor? None of this has been made clear yet.

Re accents: yes, he did always have that accent. He sounds like a northerner. More north east-ish (like Yorkshire but not quite). It's actually pretty similar to what Bronwyn, Theo and Waldred have sounded like. Theo has been consistent while Bronwyn's has definitely wandered around some. Waldred sounds straight out of Last of the Summerwine! Was that accent chosen by Halbrand in order to sort of fit in with the story he wanted to be associated with, i.e. coming from the Southlands? It makes sense. 

The only way I think the accent has fluctuated is if he's ironed it out a little (like we all do when we put on our telephone voice) when speaking to the Elves and possibly around the Sauron reveal. And that makes sense too. I'd have to go back and listen again to see how different the Sauron accent is. But on the whole, Charlie Vickers has kept the northern accent going the majority of the time.

I've just remembered that I saw someone on Twitter say that he slips into an Irish accent - which is total nonsense. I saw that tweet between my first and second watches so I listened for it and it wasn't there at all. People just making shit up out of whole cloth on the internet shocker. Americans not so good at telling the difference between Irish and Yorkshire accents. Sean Bean and Colin Farrell sound the same? To be sure.

21 hours ago, farerb said:

I noticed his accent since one of the promos before the show premiered. He's Australian by the way.

[fionwe1987]

10 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I'm not saying it's a bad thing that Tolkein is cheesy. It's part of what I love about his writing. But yes, a story in which one character inevitably begins every conversation with "I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn, Elassar, Dunadan, Isildur's heir,  wielder of the sword that was broken," and in which every character bursts out into song routinely, is cheesy. And it's a tone that's hard to adapt in a modern TV show, especially since Tolkein's dialogue style requires a poet (and maybe a scholar of languahe) to truly replicate. Jackson struggled with it, the show struggled with it, any adaptation of Tolkein will struggle with it.

Its telling that you need to invent examples of cheesiness to make your point. 

5 hours ago, Isis said:

I did not say that. Or perhaps I wasn't clear enough for you. I was referring to the time we existed in between viewing the 7th and 8th episodes where we did not know for certain that Halbrand was actually Sauron, therefore he could have been Sauron or he could have been someone else (e.g. some wanted him to turn out to be the King of the Dead or a Nazgul or whatever). We existed in a limbo where multiple outcomes were possible. I was making the point that those other outcomes (i.e. where Halbrand was NOT Sauron) began to make less and less sense by the time we had seen seven episodes because really why would we have seen so much screen time for such minor roles. I couldn't see how they could make that work. I'm sorry this was confusing for you.

You don't sound sorry, you sound smug. If this is what you intended to convey, I have to ask why. How is this in any way responsive to my saying this was a shit adaptation? This is a lot of words to say "only Halbrand made sense by episode 8", which no one disagrees with, because we were all already arguing about how stupid that is before episode 8 aired. You're saying "ooh look, they did commit to their stupid idea"?

5 hours ago, Isis said:

Celebrimbor gets seduced by Sauron. That's what Tolkien wrote. 

Are you being a book purist here? If so, let me help you.

Quote

In Eregion Sauron posed as an enissary of the Valar, sent by them to Middle-earth ('thus anticipating the Istari') or ordered by them to remain there to give aid to the Elves. He perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief
adversary and obstacle, and he endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her scorn with outward patience and courtesy. [No explanation is offered in this rapid outline of why Galadriel scorned Sauron, unless she saw through his disguise, or of why, if she did perceive his true nature, she
permitted him to remain in Eregion]

Sauron used all his arts upon Celebrimbor and his fellow-smiths, who had formed a society or brotherhood, very powerful in Eregion, the Gwaith-i-Mírdain; but he worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn. Before long Sauron had the Gwaith-i-Mírdain under his influence, for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft. So great became his hold on the Mírdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion; and that was at some time between 1350 and 1400 of the Second Age.

 

You may perhaps begin to understand why a 2 minute lesson on metallurgy doesn't quite compute as "seduction" to anyone. Yes, Annatar seduced Celebrimbor in the books. It didn't happen over a day. 

5 hours ago, Isis said:

 

 

[Derfel Cadarn]

Would have been interesting twist had amnesia Gandalf gone off with the witches and became Sauron (forging the rings), while actual Sauron pretended to be Istari, was named Gandalf/Mithrandir, and played at being good to get back into Valinor.

Would explain his ruthless willingness to throw Bilbo into danger.