Jump to content

[SPOILERS] Rings of Power: "I am Sauron" "I'm Sauron" "I'm Sauron!"


Ser Drewy

Recommended Posts

11 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

For one who talks about massacring orcs she is kinda self-righteous. 

But actually, I think that was a point Martin was getting at in his critique of LotR that people don’t appreciate. 

Tolkien wrote an entire race of pure evil and yet claimed evil cannot create but corrupt what is already there. 

Which means the orcs should have a fundamentally good essence rather than saying they are the twisted monsters of Morgoth. 

Which to Martin’s point, if these living creatures are just evil, do you slaughter them all, and if so doesn’t that make you evil? 

I don’t think Tolkien knew what he was doing there, and he would never write a scene where Aragorn orders the remaining Orcs to be hunted down and executed, especially not right after the holocaust. 
 

And yet that is the only conceivable given how he wrote about the dark skinned orcs from the east.

Yah I think that's a very good observation.  Thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I get that people are expressing some deep disappointment and I wish it were otherwise.  I'm putting the Mellon Heads here; no to get in anyone's face; but for a different perspective.  In case you are completely depressed by now.  I do love listening to the Irish.  I take it that they weren't too happy about the Harfoot's faux accent; which I didn't notice to be frank.  I still have to watch Peaky Blinders with English subtitles, my ear is so confused. In contrast, these lads are music to my ears:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I get that people are expressing some deep disappointment and I wish it were otherwise.  I'm putting the Mellon Heads here; no to get in anyone's face; but for a different perspective.  In case you are completely depressed by now.  I do love listening to the Irish.  I take it that they weren't too happy about the Harfoot's faux accent; which I didn't notice to be frank.  I still have to watch Peaky Blinders with English subtitles, my ear is so confused. In contrast, these lads are music to my ears:

 

Peaky Blinders is Birmingham, England. Might explain some confusion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I don’t know about Tolkien lore and stuff but someone more versed in it told me this was a later change when he realized how wrong his original composite externalization of evil was. 

It’s his world… is it not?  In LOTR Gorbag and Shagrat debated deserting from Sauron’s army.  Clearly Orcs have the ability to think for themselves and make choices contrary to the wishes of Sauron… as such they have the ability (in the text) to be redeemed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Are they giving Elrond a paternal role with Galadriel?  If so… that is really off.  Galadriel was born thousands of years before Elrond.  She was born thousands of before Gil-Galad for that matter.  

I’m not missing much… am I?

No, I meant they have kind of friendship/companionship that could have been the basis for a (later) romance in the show. Whereas the idea that Elrond would fall for Galadriel's daughter feels just very odd.

Also, of course, Celebrían being a younger Elf could have been more like the weirdo Galadriel they had in the show. We know literally nothing about her character, so having her as a grim warrior-woman may have made more sense with her than with Galadriel. They could have had her grow up in Beleriand while things were really bad, developing a great hatred for the Orcs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The smartest thing Amazon could do is hire new showrunners, get the Creme de la creme of scriptwriters and do a massive recasting: Gil-Galad, Saurbrand, Elendil at least. There is potential for sure that RoP can be more than a bland, generic Fantasy show…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem with the elves is that there is no sense they are any different from humans, no sense that these are people who are thousands of years old.  Elrond's one speech about time doesn't cut it.   There isn't any sense even that the Numenorians are a slightly different type of human.  Galadriel comes off as a brash 25 year old, and that is a bad choice according to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The problem with the elves is that there is no sense they are any different from humans, no sense that these are people who are thousands of years old.  Elrond's one speech about time doesn't cut it.   There isn't any sense even that the Numenorians are a slightly different type of human.  Galadriel comes off as a brash 25 year old, and that is a bad choice according to me.

The Elves are the ones with the silly haircuts. That’s how you tell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Arakan said:

The smartest thing Amazon could do is hire new showrunners, get the Creme de la creme of scriptwriters and do a massive recasting: Gil-Galad, Saurbrand, Elendil at least. There is potential for sure that RoP can be more than a bland, generic Fantasy show…

I believe that if the second season doesn't bring the numbers they want, Amazon will eventually replace the showrunners and the writing team, and they'll probably reduce the budget as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The problem with the elves is that there is no sense they are any different from humans, no sense that these are people who are thousands of years old.  Elrond's one speech about time doesn't cut it.   There isn't any sense even that the Numenorians are a slightly different type of human.  Galadriel comes off as a brash 25 year old, and that is a bad choice according to me.

That would need extremely good writers, preferably with a philosophical understanding about existence and very good actors to pull it off. Difficult but possible. Dune by Villeneuve is proof of that. 

I know that some in this thread hate to hear it but RoP must be measured against that level, given the resources, not any other TV fantasy show. GoT first season had a budget of approx 80 million, granted 10 years ago. But my goodness…

Lena Heady in her sleep will have 10 times the Charisma and Aura Morfydd Clark will ever have. And maybe start casting more globally. So many good actors out there. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, farerb said:

I believe that if the second season doesn't bring the numbers they want, Amazon will eventually replace the showrunners and the writing team, and they'll probably reduce the budget as well.

I can imagine that they‘ll wrap it up in 3, just to avoid the embarrassment and the discussions. Not all is lost. You don’t need 500 Million USD per Season to tell a Great Story. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally I feel like the damage is done. I don’t see what a second season would be able to do to massively improve on what we have here without a total refresh.

You could replace the showrunners and some writers and things would possibly improve a bit, but it just feels like all the major decisions have already been made and you would be just fiddling with the edges. 

4 minutes ago, Arakan said:

Lena Heady in her sleep will have 10 times the Charisma and Aura Morfydd Clark will ever have. And maybe start casting more globally. So many good actors out there. 

I think this is unfair on Clark because I’ve seen her in Saint Maud and she is incredible. I think she does an ok job in RoP too, but she isn’t given much to work with. She has to reel off the bizarre lines the writers give her and seems to have been given direction to be an emotionaless statue. She is much better than this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tolkein's letter to Milton Waldman in 1951.  Enjoy!

https://www.tolkienestate.com/letters/letter-to-milton-waldman-publisher-1951/#:~:text=Many children make up%2C or,theory%2C and probably in craft.

"I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched.  The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.  Absurd," 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's all too late, they say they will focus on Sauron, and he's just so wrong for the part. He just doesn't have the innate gravitas to play him.

He's got this gee gosh golly nice voice, even when he's trying to be "dark lord" or whatever it is they were going for (who knows). It was fine for Halbrand.

There should be an air of menace. It's something only certain actors can pull off, and there's definitely something physical about it, you have it or you don't.

Like Christopher Plummer, a perfectly nice guy in real life, could tap into this grasp of darkness to play these roles. It's either there or it's not.

Then again, what I think will happen is they'll just change the story to suit the actor, which they already have, and that will just compound the problem.

(Just want to be clear, I think the actor did a fine job as Halbrand. I'm talking about my preference for how I'd like to see Sauron depicted.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Personally I feel like the damage is done. I don’t see what a second season would be able to do to massively improve on what we have here without a total refresh.

You could replace the showrunners and some writers and things would possibly improve a bit, but it just feels like all the major decisions have already been made and you would be just fiddling with the edges. 

I think this is unfair on Clark because I’ve seen her in Saint Maud and she is incredible. I think she does an ok job in RoP too, but she isn’t given much to work with. She has to reel off the bizarre lines the writers give her and seems to have been given direction to be an emotionaless statue. She is much better than this.

Might be but „Commander of the Northern Armies“, a Leader, someone with the responsibility about life and death? Sorry, just don’t buy it. The same way I wouldn’t buy Tom Hanks in the role of The Godfather. Obviously the writing doesn’t help. Those people have no clue about leadership bc no way RoP Galadriel with her compulsive obssesive behavior, not giving a shit about the soldiers she is responsible for, would ever get the position of commanding officer without nepotism…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding the elves, I think they started off on the wrong foot with the opening. It should have been harmonious, rather than nasty kids, to show there's more to being an elf than just living forever.

And the long hair should have stayed from the LOTR movies. There was a dignity to the elves in the movies, a quiet grace, that set them apart. He showed their specialness in other ways, too.

Characters we liked, like Gandalf and Aragorn, respected the elves, and the hobbits were enchanted by their ways, and this made the audience aware they were special. Another way to show this.

I came away from LOTR liking the elves quite a lot, and I missed that in ROP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I think it's all too late, they say they will focus on Sauron, and he's just so wrong for the part. He just doesn't have the innate gravitas to play him.

He's got this gee gosh golly voice, even when he's trying to be "dark lord" or whatever it is they were going for (who knows). It was fine for Halbrand.

There should be an air of menace. It's something only certain actors can pull off, and there's definitely something physical about it, you have it or you don't.

Like Christopher Plummer, a perfectly nice guy in real life, could tap into this grasp of darkness to play these roles. It's either there or it's not.

Then again, what I think will happen is they'll just change the story to suit the actor, which they already have, and that will just compound the problem.

This might be the biggest hurdle for me. I could overlook what was a pretty slow and grindy season and see it improving, but Halbrand as Sauron is such a misstep, so uninspired that I don’t think I can get over it. Sad for the actor, but just seems totally wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

For one who talks about massacring orcs she is kinda self-righteous. 

But actually, I think that was a point Martin was getting at in his critique of LotR that people don’t appreciate. 

Tolkien wrote an entire race of pure evil and yet claimed evil cannot create but corrupt what is already there. 

Which means the orcs should have a fundamentally good essence rather than saying they are the twisted monsters of Morgoth. 

Which to Martin’s point, if these living creatures are just evil, do you slaughter them all, and if so doesn’t that make you evil? 

I don’t think Tolkien knew what he was doing there, and he would never write a scene where Aragorn orders the remaining Orcs to be hunted down and executed, especially not right after the holocaust. 
 

And yet that is the only conceivable given how he wrote about the dark skinned orcs from the east.

 

Orcs are corrupted elves, so the "evil cannot create but corrupt what is already there" holds true.

As said above, he did address this in a letter and acknowledge that orcs could be redeemed.

As a Catholic Tolkien would definitely have put thought into this. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Regarding the elves, I think they started off on the wrong foot with the opening. It should have been harmonious, rather than nasty kids, to show there's more to being an elf than just living forever.

I remember when I first watched that scene, I wasn't sure if I was watching a Tolkien adaptation or one of the Disney live action remakes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...