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[SPOILERS] Rings of Power: "I am Sauron" "I'm Sauron" "I'm Sauron!"


Ser Drewy

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6 minutes ago, Darryk said:

 

Orcs are corrupted elves, so the "evil cannot create but corrupt what is already there" holds true.

As said above, he did address this in a letter and acknowledge that orcs could be redeemed.

As a Catholic Tolkien would definitely have put thought into this. 

It’s very clear in LotR that Orcs have free will.  They couldn’t debate desertion if they didn’t have it.  If they have free will they can choose to be redeemed.  The harder question is whether the “good” people could accept a “redeemed orc”.

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16 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I think it's all too late, they say they will focus on Sauron, and he's just so wrong for the part. He just doesn't have the innate gravitas to play him.

For Sauron they could and should have gone with multiple actors if they were to portray him as a shape-changer. One actor for Annatar, another for the Dark Lord addressing the Orcs and 'evil men'.

If going with one actor they should have cast a hell of an established actor, being able to portray a variety of emotions and attitudes, and working with CGI to really make Annatar beautiful and seductive and magical, while also using CGI to highlight and underline how the same guy could also pass as a terrible, monstrous Dark Lord.

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By the way, thinking about things - I find it also quite childish to have them give Sauron a sex drive or love interest. The guy is, originally, a uncorporeal being, and while the Valar do have 'spouses' they don't have children or interest in sex (that we know of).

Sauron is clearly obsessed with power and is supposed to be more of a bureaucrat, so if you want to 'humanize' him the way to do that would be to show he very much is fascinated by processes and mechanisms and concepts ... and not some Elvish chic who blew some self-confidence up his ass.

I mean, in a sense that's like Milton's Satan honestly getting the hots for Eve. It is just not exactly the obvious or ideal take on the character.

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16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

For Sauron they could and should have gone with multiple actors if they were to portray him as a shape-changer. One actor for Annatar, another for the Dark Lord addressing the Orcs and 'evil men'.

If going with one actor they should have cast a hell of an established actor, being able to portray a variety of emotions and attitudes, and working with CGI to really make Annatar beautiful and seductive and magical, while also using CGI to highlight and underline how the same guy could also pass as a terrible, monstrous Dark Lord.

True, he's got to be super scary, he's the ultimate evil villain! This character needs to scare us out of a good night's sleep. I just can't see that happening anymore. They'll probably give him a girlfriend or something.

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Hypothetical discussion about how you'd like to improve the show is what this thread is for, but this talk about replacing the showrunners or how they'll end it after 3 seasons "to avoid embarrassment" really demonstrates how much this thread is in a bubble.  I'd encourage all to simply skim the "Reception" section of the show's wikipedia page.  It is an unqualified success both in terms of viewership and critical reception. 

Amazon has no reason to be displeased from a business standpoint.  And while you (and frankly I) may want the showrunners replaced, they're not going anywhere.  It would be quite unheard of for executives to fuck with a successful show like that (at least in terms of firing them, many successful shows have seen their showrunners willingly leave).  Production for season 2 already started two weeks ago.

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11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The guy is, originally, a uncorporeal being, and while the Valar do have 'spouses' they don't have children or interest in sex (that we know of).

I mean, one of the Maia (which is what Sauron is) married an elf.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way, thinking about things - I find it also quite childish to have them give Sauron a sex drive or love interest. The guy is, originally, a uncorporeal being, and while the Valar do have 'spouses' they don't have children or interest in sex (that we know of).

Sauron is clearly obsessed with power and is supposed to be more of a bureaucrat, so if you want to 'humanize' him the way to do that would be to show he very much is fascinated by processes and mechanisms and concepts ... and not some Elvish chic who blew some self-confidence up his ass.

I mean, in a sense that's like Milton's Satan honestly getting the hots for Eve. It is just not exactly the obvious or ideal take on the character.

For the record, Melkor DID have a sex drive. When Luthien danced for him, the narrative said an "evil lust" came over him, to do a "design more dark than any that had yet came over his heart since he fled Valinor". That almost certainly means he meant to rape her but thankfully she put him and his court to sleep so Beren could take a silmaril from Morgoth's crown.

I didn't particularly like the whole Galadriel/Sauron thing but I don't think it's out of the question. For him, I would think it was more about manipulation and power over her than "love".

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8 minutes ago, DMC said:

Hypothetical discussion about how you'd like to improve the show is what this thread is for, but this talk about replacing the showrunners or how they'll end it after 3 seasons "to avoid embarrassment" really demonstrates how much this thread is in a bubble.  I'd encourage all to simply skim the "Reception" section of the show's wikipedia page.  It is an unqualified success both in terms of viewership and critical reception. 

Amazon has no reason to be displeased from a business standpoint.  And while you (and frankly I) may want the showrunners replaced, they're not going anywhere.  It would be quite unheard of for executives to fuck with a successful show like that (at least in terms of firing them, many successful shows have seen their showrunners willingly leave).  Production for season 2 already started two weeks ago.

While the show is still the most watched Amazon produced show (at least by episode 3), the ratings were still decreased by 18%, which means it's slightly doing better than The Boys, but I'm sure with the money Amazon invested in the show, they expected more than "slightly".

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3 minutes ago, farerb said:

While the show is still the most watched Amazon produced show (at least by episode 3), the ratings were still decreased by 18%, which means it's slightly doing better than The Boys, but I'm sure with the money Amazon invested in the show, they expected more than "slightly".

Mayhaps the budget will be cut down, sure - meant to mention that.  But the show isn't going anywhere and neither are the showrunners.  Amazon aimed for it to be their tentpole and it has cleared that hurdle.  You don't champion 100 million users having viewed the show for something you're disappointed in.

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16 minutes ago, DMC said:

I mean, one of the Maia (which is what Sauron is) married an elf.

Yes, but that's pretty much a special case, pretty much a relationship determined by divine providence. Sauron's exploits would't exactly be favored by the grace of the One.

16 minutes ago, Trebla said:

For the record, Melkor DID have a sex drive. When Luthien danced for him, the narrative said an "evil lust" came over him, to do a "design more dark than any that had yet came over his heart since he fled Valinor". That almost certainly means he meant to rape her but thankfully she put him and his court to sleep so Beren could take a silmaril from Morgoth's crown.

I didn't particularly like the whole Galadriel/Sauron thing but I don't think it's out of the question. For him, I would think it was more about manipulation and power over her than "love".

I always read that as him contemplating some spiritual corruption thing, rape isn't that terrible a crime in the setting if Eöl's actions are any indication.

And, yes, of course, once the Dark Lords are completely bound to their bodies they might even develop a sex drive of sorts. But Sauron shouldn't be at that point ... nor should, I think, that kind of thing be at the center of his being.

The show didn't make it so much about sex but more about romance, a desire for companionship - Sauron basically wanted Galadriel as the queen at his side. I'm pretty sure Sauron would never contemplate something like that.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, but that's pretty much a special case, pretty much a relationship determined by divine providence. Sauron's exploits would't exactly be favored by the grace of the One.

Just saying it's not unheard of.  Plus, as Trebla mentioned, Sauron's interest in Galadriel doesn't seem particularly romantic.

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

Just saying it's not unheard of.  Plus, as Trebla mentioned, Sauron's interest in Galadriel doesn't seem particularly romantic.

I didn't say it was unheard of, I said it was a weird/bad take on the character considering his nature.

Vice versa, we could also have Istari having affairs, having sex, having children ... it would be possible, considering they are pretty much fully incarnated. But it would still be a bad take on their characters because they would want to avoid such entanglements.

Having Men/Elves fall for them (or Sauron) could make an interesting plot point, but not they themselves considering taking such a route.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

I didn't say it was unheard of, I said it was a weird/bad take on the character considering his nature.

Well, you said the Valar don't have children or interest in sex, whereas Sauron was a Maia and Melian is one who obviously had sex and a child.

Anyway, again, the way I took is what "attracts" Sauron to Galadriel is her power, which sounds pretty Sauron to me.

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7 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

It's kinda sad that, at some point, a room full of theorically top level executives from Amazon received the story treatment of RoP and their only idea for improving that mess was "you should add hobbits".

oh you're not giving them enough credit.  Surely they insisted on adding Gandalf too?

 

6 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

Like it'd make more sense to reveal the plan to make Rings of Power this episode and have Celebrimbor produce an "essay" ring, then Gil-Galad gives the go ahead and S2 focuses on the proper forging. 

"assay".

Apparently they're going to make these in reverse-order, the 3 first, maybe the 7 next, and the 9 later...  presumably the One last, but I wouldn't trust that they won't reveal it was made in secret first.   Logically then they can finish up with a few rough "assay" to give away as trinkets at the local carnival.

 

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40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way, thinking about things - I find it also quite childish to have them give Sauron a sex drive or love interest. The guy is, originally, a uncorporeal being, and while the Valar do have 'spouses' they don't have children or interest in sex (that we know of).

Sauron is clearly obsessed with power and is supposed to be more of a bureaucrat, so if you want to 'humanize' him the way to do that would be to show he very much is fascinated by processes and mechanisms and concepts ... and not some Elvish chic who blew some self-confidence up his ass.

I mean, in a sense that's like Milton's Satan honestly getting the hots for Eve. It is just not exactly the obvious or ideal take on the character.

For what it’s worth, the actor said in a post-finale interview that Sauron’s interest in Galadriel is more about ambition than romance. He sees her potential and wants to use her power to increase his own. 
 

Looking online, 95% of ROP discourse is about Saurbrand, so it would appear that the show made a smart move here. Before now, the most (positive) buzz I saw online was a rather tepid appreciation for Elrond and Durin’s friendship. People liked the Harfoots and the dwarves, but it didn’t really create conversation. Now we’re finally starting to see that.

Still, I’m going to miss Halbrand. I really liked him as a character, and despite having a few quips about how “looks can be deceiving,” he never did anything particularly malicious at any point prior to the finale, which is why I think of him as practically a separate character. It may have worked better if Halbrand actually had been the last Southlander king and Sauron, being a necromancer who had been recently split open, took on his form and adopted his personality, rather than it just having been a disguise of his own invention. Because Halbrand’s relative good behavior only works if he actually was trying to be a better person, even after Galadriel convinced him to return to the Southlands (he did stop her from killing Adar, after all), which the show now seems to be trying to move away from. RIP Halbrand, you will be missed.

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2 minutes ago, farerb said:

And like I said previously, if they wanted the Hobbits and Gandalf, they should have set the show in the Third Age, there's enough material for that in the appendix.

If this show is a hit, there probably will be a second show set in the Third Age. 

Personally, Beren and Luthien sounds like it could make for a good miniseries/movie.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way, thinking about things - I find it also quite childish to have them give Sauron a sex drive or love interest. The guy is, originally, a uncorporeal being, and while the Valar do have 'spouses' they don't have children or interest in sex (that we know of).

Sauron is clearly obsessed with power and is supposed to be more of a bureaucrat, so if you want to 'humanize' him the way to do that would be to show he very much is fascinated by processes and mechanisms and concepts ... and not some Elvish chic who blew some self-confidence up his ass.

I mean, in a sense that's like Milton's Satan honestly getting the hots for Eve. It is just not exactly the obvious or ideal take on the character.

Halbrand was a good romantic partner for Galadriel, just not Sauron. 

I'd hope they'd develop Halbrand separately to his alter-ego rather than writing that off as being deceptive. There wasn't any real romantic tension, but I wished there was. 

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