[SPOILERS] Rings of Power: "I am Sauron" "I'm Sauron" "I'm Sauron!"

[The Bard of Banefort]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The point about this thing is that it shamelessly leeches off the Tolkien/Middle-earth IP/brand without even trying adapt of faithfully depict this world, the characters, or the themes the author wrote about.

Decontextualizing this just doesn't make any sense.

But if you insist doing that, then the only thing that remains is badly written generic fantasy shit. I daresay that this particular show wouldn't be a success if it wasn't leeching off the Tolkien name/brand. Folks wouldn't give shit about that if it wasn't pretending to be a prequel to LotR.

I mean, how bad this stuff is you can easily illustrate - the dying king tells his daughter there is only 'darkness' for her in Middle-earth and then she goes LITERALLY BLIND! I guys that was their attempt at subtlety/a surprising twist. And speaking about that - what about magical Elven medicine and/or Sauron magical healing skills (which he should have)? Why didn't anyone suggest trying that? Why didn't Sauron ingratiate himself with the Númenóreans by restoring Míriel's eyesight, trying to pass it off as him having special knowledge about a super weed (athelas, ahm). I mean, if the guy can advise Celebrimbor in the metallurgy department, why shouldn't he be able to convince folks that he is also a great natural healer.

But Galadriel could just as well have invited Míriel to Lindon so she the healers there could restore her sight.

Also - why the hell did the Sadoc guy have to die? Wasn't a literal wizard next to him? Why did nobody consider asking 'Gandalf' to heal him? They could have established it wasn't possible for reason X, but having Magic Guy just sit there, doing nothing, while a character beloved by the other characters died is just silly.

I don’t consider it shameless just because I think the showrunners are Tolkien nerds who are trying their best. It’s just a matter of whether you think their best is good enough. 

If I had to guess, Sadoc was probably killed solely to establish some kind of stakes. It could also be that the actor, who is well-known in the UK, wanted more money than Amazon was willing to pay him lol. 
 

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Are casual viewers really that into the show? I find that really hard to contemplate and understand. Mainly because the show requires so much patience and willpower to get through each episode. I don't know how anyone who is only mildly interested in LOTR can carry on watching such over long episodes where almost nothing seems to happen. My assumption is the show would just see a massive drop off, so i'm very surprised that didn't happen.

This is a show that feels very different depending on how deeply you analyze it. The episodes that I watched and didn’t bother reading up on afterwards were more satisfying to me than the ones where I read the critiques afterwards. Most people watching LOTR accept that it has a mythic feel to it and are willing to sweep a lot of the inconsistencies under the rug. 

Plus, there is something about the Harfoots and dwarves and landscapes that bring a smile to your face. Even if ROP isn’t as good as the movies, they did nail the atmosphere, which is a huge part of this franchise’s appeal.

Something I do think this show is missing is an enormously charismatic everyman like Sam or Bilbo in the Hobbit (which is a testament to Martin Freeman’s acting talent since he seems like a huge grouch in real life). The closest we have right now is Nori. And speaking of which, I’ll say it: I’m glad we finally have some female hobbits! It’s just a shame they have to wear rags instead of that cute Shire attire.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t consider it shameless just because I think the showrunners are Tolkien nerds who are trying their best. It’s just a matter of whether you think their best is good enough. 

It’s fanfiction being passed off as “authoritative”.

[Le Cygne]

54 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Something I do think this show is missing is an enormously charismatic everyman like Sam or Bilbo in the Hobbit (which is a testament to Martin Freeman’s acting talent since he seems like a huge grouch in real life). The closest we have right now is Nori. And speaking of which, I’ll say it: I’m glad we finally have some female hobbits! It’s just a shame they have to wear rags instead of that cute Shire attire.

As a Nori fan, can I just say I'd like her to brush her hair out of her eyes. I like the wispy bangs, but shorten them or brush them aside, please, hairdresser.

I read that the Stranger actually grew his hair to that length for the show.

(I don't think we've discussed hair yet. I wish the elf men all wore their hair long like in the movies, but I liked the women's hair. Costumes were OK, too.)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Plus, there is something about the Harfoots and dwarves and landscapes that bring a smile to your face. Even if ROP isn’t as good as the movies, they did nail the atmosphere, which is a huge part of this franchise’s appeal.

Don’t get me started on the problems with the films… particularly RtoK…

[Lord Varys]

26 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t consider it shameless just because I think the showrunners are Tolkien nerds who are trying their best. It’s just a matter of whether you think their best is good enough. 

I'm fancying myself as a writer of great dialogue, but I'm pretty sure I could write a better treatment for the first season of this show, and most of the Tolkien readers writing on those boards could. Even if we were to stick broadly to the plot of the show there are lots of smaller changes which could have made the whole thing much better.

But in general I'd deny that these people 'are doing their best'. There are so many basic design choices that are bad, simple things like the males of the House of Elros having beards or the Elves, you know, looking neither ethereal nor beautiful. It would have been very easy to avoid something like that.

With Númenor, it would have been very easy to keep roughly the same plot they had, but make the setting more like Tolkien has it in the books. Have a more faithful Pharazôn and Míriel, a better Tar-Palantir, and, especially, a better Elendil and Isildur (and an Anárion who wasn't just mentioned). They could have also had Elendil's father Amandil who is still around at that time, making them a proper multi-generational family which could have provided sufficient background for the younger generation(s) struggling with their life's choices and the burdens their elders put upon them. We could have an Elendil who was struggling with certain things, and an Isildur who wanted to do something else whilst Amandil was the clear leader of the Faithful faction, at odds with the majority opinion in Númenor.

And, of course, then a better depiction of their issues with the Elves and the Valar and all that. It is not a particularly complicated conflict in the book, one they could have easily introduced and depicted.

Also, of course, it would have been great to not have Arondir as some 'Elvish colonizer' but fly with him as a Númenórean colonizer who had gone native and was starting to enjoy living with the people he was actually support to lord over and exploit.

Also, you know, making the Mordor plot more about depicting a real people at a real place and not basically make the whole thing feel like Hercules or Xena episode. Because that's the vibe I got from them defending 'the village' and 'the tower'.

Also, it would have been very easy to make the whole 'Hobbit' plot more substantial. Literally nothing happens there throughout the series, and in the end the people as such seem to be unimportant since only Elanor is going to accompany the wizard. I was flabbergasted there as well that we wouldn't get some kind of Hobbit gang - 3-4 guys accompanying 'Gandalf' on his quest.

For the Hobbits in general they could have invented some Bombadil-like episodes for, or possibly even have Tom Bombadil himself in the show there (before they ended up meeting Star Guy). They do have the rights to the LotR, after all. They didn't even continue with the things they introduced. The guy who hurt his leg just recovers without there being any lasting problems. That could have been a way to create tension, with 'Gandalf' showing his skill by healing the ankle.

Oh, and with the Hobbits I got a rather unpleasant clichéd gypsy depiction there. They don't really work for me at all. IThey even started like a caricature of the Nelwyns from Willow (who are themselves Lucas' take on the Hobbits).

Having female Hobbits and more women in general isn't bad. But that doesn't better the plot or the dialogue.

26 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If I had to guess, Sadoc was probably killed solely to establish some kind of stakes. It could also be that the actor, who is well-known in the UK, wanted more money than Amazon was willing to pay him lol.

Oh, I get the narrative reasons for this - and I agree with that. But them having a wizard who may have been able to heal a mortal wound (or try to do that) means you have to kill such a character in a manner that avoids something like that.

Instant death, for instance, or death by means of a poisoned wound even an Istar cannot heal. Something along those lines.

[Zorral]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

they could have invented some Bombadil-like episodes f

O gods NO NO NO everytime NO.  Bombadil is just ... even on my first reading of LotR, he and his Goldberry came through as both silly and cringey.  I've generously chosen to view his inclusion as the final step of the hobbits over the liminal threshold of Middleearth.  But even so . . . .

[Le Cygne]

4 hours ago, farerb said:

I think it's much easier after the first half of FotR and I think the most important thing with LotR is to have patience and immerse yourself with the scenes. That's at least what I try to do when I reread it.

Yes (although I love the first half of Fellowship!) It's been a few years since I last read it, so I'm going to do it again! Nice way to clear away the show.

Walk the paths, look around, feel the feelings. The road goes ever on and on.

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.

[The Marquis de Leech]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

@The Marquis de Leechdid write a rather splendid Gollum/Dobby/Yoda love triangle.

Your wish is my command

But back on topic, anecdotally, I have encountered non-book readers who are enjoying it, so that's something. For myself, I am rationalising that slightly bad taste in my mouth as first season weirdness, a reflection of this part of the show being the most fanficcy. The remaining four seasons have a clearer canonical lay-out (Rings, War, Numenor, Last Alliance). On the other hand, this is also a show where my favourite character (Adar) is pure-fanfiction, so who the hell knows. 

[The Marquis de Leech]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But in general I'd deny that these people 'are doing their best'. There are so many basic design choices that are bad, simple things like the males of the House of Elros having beards or the Elves, you know, looking neither ethereal nor beautiful. It would have been very easy to avoid something like that.

There is perfectly good reason to ignore that 1972 note on beards. It contradicts the published work, after all.

As for the Elves, the show is limited by having to cast human actors. 

[Raja]

Finally caught up with the last two episodes, and I agree with Mormont in that I think it was uneven but had a lot of decent things in it that will keep me interested in S2, whenver that might be.

I think lots of things work well, such as Elrond/ Durin, Nori/ the stranger and Halbrand. I'm not as into Numenor as I was when it was first introduced. The weird wizard fight was...not great though.

[Raja]

5 hours ago, mormont said:

But the criticism some of the actors here are getting is plainly hyperbolic.

Certainly agree with that. 

 

[Raja]

11 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

 The problem is that the Galadriel we see in the show does not act as someone who is around 5,000 years old.

Yeah, this isn't a problem for me at all.

[The Anti-Targ]

For me the real questionable thing is why even make a show when you don't have the rights to all the essential source material necessary to make a faithful adaptation? The show is almost fanfic by necessity because there is so much canon they are not allowed to  use. Imagine being told you can make The Hobbit, but you can only use the information from LOTR to do it? It would be worse than the Hobbit movies that were actually made; if you can imagine such a thing.

[LynnS]

This interesting.  Sauron wasn't always evil and there is an idea that the power of the elves on earth was fading:

And this is interesting as well.  I've always wondered who were the nine mortal men.  I thought they were all kings.  They weren't.  Three were from Numenor and one from Rhun.  I wonder if the writers and show runners are tapping into Tolkein's letters.

 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

There is perfectly good reason to ignore that 1972 note on beards. It contradicts the published work, after all.

As for the Elves, the show is limited by having to cast human actors. 

I still prefer them beardless.

The Jackson Elves looked pretty good. Those Elves are old and homely. They truly look more like Vulcans than Elves.

[polishgenius]

8 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Are casual viewers really that into the show? I find that really hard to contemplate and understand. Mainly because the show requires so much patience and willpower to get through each episode. I don't know how anyone who is only mildly interested in LOTR can carry on watching such over long episodes where almost nothing seems to happen. My assumption is the show would just see a massive drop off, so i'm very surprised that didn't happen.

 

I mean, I didn't like the show myself and stopped after two episodes (I think? It might have been just one) and nothing I've read in this topic since has changed my mind, but I'm seeing quite a lot of people whose tastes  are normally pretty similar to mine, both here and on twitter etc, who simply aren't feeling the same problems with it that I did and others do and are genuinely engaged. Not in the same way a CW or other naff-but-fun show would, but like engaging with it as genuine quality. I don't really get it but it obviously has something that's catching a lot of people.

[DMC]

45 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

but I'm seeing quite a lot of people whose tastes  are normally pretty similar to mine, both here and on twitter etc

Ah, well, that eliminates me then. 

[Mithras]

10 hours ago, DMC said:

Well, you said the Valar don't have children or interest in sex, whereas Sauron was a Maia and Melian is one who obviously had sex and a child.

Anyway, again, the way I took is what "attracts" Sauron to Galadriel is her power, which sounds pretty Sauron to me.

Well, Luthien managed to give Morgoth a boner, so we have the Valar checked as well.

Also IIRC, the original conception of the Valar were much more like the Norse pantheon where the gods were having children (like some prominent Maiar were originally children of the Valar).