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[Spoilers] Episode 108 Discussion


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1 minute ago, RumHam said:

I still feel like there's room to reveal that Otto had been poisoning him for years. The king improved in his absence, and then withered when Otto returned. 

Otherwise someone needs to explain what is was up with his health. 

It really looks like Leprosy to me.

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Another travesty. 
 

Alicent’s king to be is a rapist, and Alicent gaslights the victim like a thug. 
 

Meanwhile over at Dragonstone saint Rhaenyra raises three (four) pure hearted children, one who wants to learn Valyrian to be a good king even though he has many years to go. 
 

Meanwhile the Greens are practicing elder abuse just in case you couldn’t figure out they were the bad guys. 
 

Then hero Daemon comes out and kills the guy who calls his girl a whore like a true ally. Oh and in case you still don’t know Alicent is evil they put a lot of religious iconography because ya know, religious woman = bad.  
 

Oh, and that ending just nukes any case for character motivation. They couldn’t come up with a reason for Alicent to take the throne so they decide to go with a misunderstanding over their stupid prophecy BS that no one who is watching HotD for the first time will understand. 
 

Wonderful acting wasted on a garbage script.
 

 

Edited by butterweedstrover
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41 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I liked the moment when Rhaenys decides to side with Rhaenyra. While she may have done so anyhow, I would like to think that it was because Viserys turned to her to settle the matter. She got her due.

Perhaps I misremember but I thought her agreement to the marriages came after the dude who was causing her grief was beheaded.  No?

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15 minutes ago, farerb said:

Does Rhaenys really have an authority to accept or reject marriage offers for Baela and Rhaena? Daemon is their father, shouldn't he be the one to the decide whom they marry?

Daemon’s approval was implicit when Rhaenyra made the offer.

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In a relatively crowded field, this was the most Targaryen episode in the history of the ASoIaF franchise.  
Lets take the Throne one last time:

Viserys Targaryen, a Man and a King, in That Order: The best part of this show has been Viserys and Patty Considine’s almost mesmerizing performance of his reign.  From energetic pretender to visionary, to destroyed widower, to supreme monarch, to ailing man to shell, watching this performance has been- second maybe only to Charles Dance as Tywin- the best acting of this franchise.  Unlike most of the other characters, Viserys’ journey has been varied and he is not the same man as he had been when this show began.

And the most incredible scene were his last.  Looking at his destroyed body (but keen mind) as he embodies the deterioration of the literal rot of this position in these first few scenes was incredible.  But it was dwarfed by watching those doors open and the crier yell out who he was: King Viserys of House Targaryen, First of his name, King of the Seven Kingdoms, of the Adals and the Rhoynar and the First men and Protector of the Realm.  

And then that walk.  This crippled, weak of body but Herculean of Will man as he ascended his throne to make one final ruling.  Outflanking the Hightowers and emboldening the Blacks, and hopefully bringing peace and order to the realm.  And yet he rose to this occasion to insult the Greens (Forgive me for my confusion…).  And then he called on the woman he usurped the crown from.  Well. Done. 

And for this Patty’s portrayal shows that GoT … can have love; that the show is not some nihilistic storm but showing a moving relationship between a father – a man – and his family.  This man loved his family to the exclusion of all else.  But even later still, Viserys passed the “test;” recall that he said to Lord Strong that he had never been “tested;” and then he walked into that throne room.  And he walked the stairs, took his drown and sat his throne.  To the exclusion of all others. 

He then had a meal with his family one last time and saw them happy and secure and heeding his words.  
When push came to shove, Viserrys was the King and the Man he always wanted to be.  

The story of Patty Considine’s Viserys is at an end; and it was a magnificent end.  He died as happy as he could be, satisfied that he had put things right; that he ruled as well as he could.  That he loved as well as he was able and he made decisions that were best under the circumstances.  

There has not been a better legacy since Hot Pie decided to tell the Seven Kingdoms to pull over so he could get off.  
Visersy I is in the pantheon of all-time great characters of this series.  For that mask and walk alone.  Awesome. 

The Trouble With Motherhood: Aegon I is a complete shit and that’s fine.  I think its terrific that Alicent is on him AND that when faced with Aegon’s victim, Alicent did the right thing: she comforted the child (I guess we could stretch it and call her a woman, but I think not); gave her some money and took care of the potential trouble of a bastard.  She was firm, but not a tyrant.  And then she attacked her shit-head son.  I think this showed Alicent in a great light- she’s tough, but not a monster. Great job I a short scene.  

The Strong and the Bright: I loved how the problems of the Princess and Queen seemed- even briefly, to have passed.  And then the princess went at it and made clear: the children have inherited the sins of the parents and will now fight that war.  Their taunts- and the oldest Strong trying to be princely – was well done; his seriousness versus Aegon’s arrogance and entitlement show the contours of rule and ambition.  This was a good glimpse into the future of this rivalry.  

A Prince of Few Words: The fact that Matt Smith conveys so much with so few words- his disgust for the Targaryen brood; his hatred of the Valyrion pretender; and his love for his brother.  Few words here too.  

The Succession Regression: I think this episode showed how unclear successions can bring heaps of problems.  Heirs and pretenders- bastards or otherwise – makes the worms come out of the woodwork.  This s the problem – people who want things start scheming and use the pretenders as the vehicle.  This episode crystalized that.  

What I am in the Fence About:

Names, Names, Names: I honestly was confused over who was who this episode. Who was Joff?  Was there a Baelor?  How many Daemon’s?  We need a program here and it’s a little cruddy that the show is being bad with names.  And yet…  that’s what dynasty’s do- they name and rename people over and over again with like three names.   

Which lead to that lapse of convenient confusion- which Aegon as Viserys talking about?  Yeah, it’s a little cheesy, but it’s a pretext that people use to gain power.  See above.

The Other Daemon: Yeah… so the guy who played Daemon Valyrion … was kinda full of himself.  So, like… his acting in the first scene was wooden and kinda over-the-top.  But wait, there’s more: he then makes a petition that might as well have been “Why I Should Be Beheaded: a Story in Two Parts.” The ONLY thing that speech did was guarantee that asshole had to die.  Didn’t he know that?  Didn’t he see how this HAD to end?  He called the kids bastards- okay REALLY bad.  But then decides “You know what?  I may not have gone too far enough.”  And is like “WHOOOOOORRRRREEE!!!!!!” 

Yeah, the problem is the ONLY way that scene can end is with that guy dead and it’s kinda lame that the character id not know that.  Its sort of unrealistic that somebody like that would be that obvious and oblivious at the same time.  
Oh, and the counterpoint is that I can understand it because watching that blowhard get his jaw lopped off was fantastic. Sweeeeeeet.

What Did Not Like:

Can’t do it- this episode was as close to a 10 as any show can get.  It was beautiful.  

With Viserys gone all I can say is: The King is Dead; Long Live the... the ...

... I mean... I'm sure they will figure it out... 
 

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9 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I still feel like there's room to reveal that Otto had been poisoning him for years. The king improved in his absence, and then withered when Otto returned. 

Yeah, I definitely thought that's where they were going throughout the episode, but they never really committed to it.  I doubt we'll get anything more about it, so...will be left ambiguous I guess?  Not necessarily a bad thing. 

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18 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I still feel like there's room to reveal that Otto had been poisoning him for years. The king improved in his absence, and then withered when Otto returned. 

Did he?  Viserys looked awful in the two episodes proceeding this when it would be to soon for Otto to have done anything.

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7 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

Yeah… so the guy who played Daemon Valyrion … was kinda full of himself.  So, like… his acting in the first scene was wooden and kinda over-the-top.  But wait, there’s more: he then makes a petition that might as well have been “Why I Should Be Beheaded: a Story in Two Parts.”

His name is (was) Vaemond Velaryon.

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Bravo!

Well done. I'm glad that the show has FINALLY slowed down long enough for things to marinate and luxuriate.

We should've had another big happy family moment with the Velaryon-Targaryen clan this season (Rhaenys, Corlys, Laena, Daemon, Rhaenyra, Laenor and all their children) before Laena died.

9 minutes ago, farerb said:

Does Rhaenys really have an authority to accept or reject marriage offers for Baela and Rhaena? Daemon is their father, shouldn't he be the one to the decide whom they marry?

Rhaenyra is the Princess of Dragonstone and the liege lady of all the houses of the Blackwater and the Narrow Sea. Rhaenys is the Lady of Driftmark and the interim Head of House Velaryon.

Yes, Daemon is their father and a royal prince but the ones with the true deciding power in the matter are Rhaenyra and Rhaenys. At least when it comes to Jacaerys, Lucerys and Rhaena.

Baela is different but Daemon is his wife's consort so...he ultimately has to go along with it anyway unless he raises an express issue with it. Plus, why would he object to having his eldest daughter be the Queen Consort of the Seven Kingdoms and his youngest daughter be the Lady Consort of Driftmark. Plus, his stepsons would be sitting the Iron Throne and the Driftwood Throne both...a nice ego boost for a man such as him.

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Another travesty. 
 

Alicent’s king to be is a rapist, and Alicent blackmails the victim like a thug. 
 

Meanwhile over at Dragonstone saint Rhaenyra raises three (four) pure hearted children who want to learn Valyrian to be a good king even though he has many years to go. 
 

Meanwhile the Greens are practicing elder abuse just in case you couldn’t figure out they were the bad guys. 
 

Then hero Daemon comes out and kills the guy who calls his girl a whore like a true ally. Oh and in case you still don’t know Alicent is evil they put a lot of religious iconography because ya know, religious woman = bad.  
 

Oh, and that ending just nukes any case for character motivation. They couldn’t come up with a reason for Alicent to take the throne so they decide to go with a misunderstanding over their stupid prophecy BS that no one who is watching HotD for the first time will understand. 
 

Wonderful acting wasted on a garbage script.
 

 

This episode was a very accurate, brilliant adaptation of the book.

I don't see what the problem is. Aegon has always been a drunk, a rapist and a loser. Aemond's bloodlust and bitterness was always clear. And Alicent is more than implied to have done things like this...and worse.

The Greens practice elder abuse? Granted, yes, they are overmedicating a dying old man. But I didn't see it as elder abuse. They (well no, probably just Alicent) are just trying to make him as comfortable as possible. Keep in mind, that in the books, the Greens had allowed King Viserys to rot to the point where the stench was all over the entire castle.

Again, I don't see what the problem is.

Daemon killing Vaemond Velaryon is also very much so book accurate. The whole process of it ending up before the king himself was a process. A lot like our modern-day court system.

I thought the religious iconography was a very nice touch; it showcases a deep change in Alicent (although I'm afraid it's too late as she's already raised her eldest two sons improperly) and it explains why the Red Keep changed appearance. This is the Red Keep that people of GoT recognized. I like how the show lampshaded the fact that a castle as prestigious and illustrious as the Red Keep had gotten so quiet and empty.

 

I think you're complaining to be complaining. Would you rather Alicent be a selfish, grasping opportunistic stepmother who listened to Viserys' last words and didn't care?

5 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Perhaps I misremember but I thought her agreement to the marriages came after the dude who was causing her grief was beheaded.  No?

No. It was before.

Speaking of Rhaenys, I wonder what they are playing at with her. She seems to be both anti-Rhaenyra and anti-Alicent in the most interesting way.

In any case, Vaemond Velaryon is a terrible person. Even if the bastardy of Rhaenyra's sons was acknowledged, the island of Driftmark and everything on it would still pass to Baela before him. And his oh-so-dearly-beloved brother hadn't even died yet.

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6 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Daemon killing Vaemond Velaryon is also very much so book accurate. The whole process of it ending up before the king himself was a process. A lot like our modern-day court system.

Didn't Rhaenyra order it herself in the books?  With Vaemond's relatives later being tortured by Viserys.

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7 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Rhaenyra is the Princess of Dragonstone and the liege lady of all the houses of the Blackwater and the Narrow Sea. Rhaenys is the Lady of Driftmark and the interim Head of House Velaryon.

Yes, Daemon is their father and a royal prince but the ones with the true deciding power in the matter are Rhaenyra and Rhaenys. At least when it comes to Jacaerys, Lucerys and Rhaena.

Baela is different but Daemon is his wife's consort so...he ultimately has to go along with it anyway unless he raises an express issue with it. Plus, why would he object to having his eldest daughter be the Queen Consort of the Seven Kingdoms and his youngest daughter be the Lady Consort of Driftmark. Plus, his stepsons would be sitting the Iron Throne and the Driftwood Throne both...a nice ego boost for a man such as him.

I didn't say he would object. On the contrary. It's his and Rhaenyra's decision to make, not Rhaenys. With all due respect to House Velaryon, Baela and Rhaena are still Targaryen Princesses. The Lady of Driftmark should not have any say in this matter. Rhaenyra might show her some courtesy, but in the end both Rhaenyra and Daemon can veto whatever objection Rhaenys has.

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17 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Didn't Rhaenyra order it herself in the books?  With Vaemond's relatives later being tortured by Viserys.

Yes.

Rhaenyra is the liege of all the island Houses in the Blackwater and the Narrow Sea. Vaemond rightfully took the issue before his liege and Rhaenyra/Daemon brought the gavel down on him. Perhaps bit too harshly but Viserys had already said what he said.

And I think it was Vaemond's sons who idiotically appealed to the Iron Throne (the Iron Throne serves as the Supreme Court, the ultimate appeals court in the land) and got their tongues removed.

 

So, in Westeros, it appears that there is:

  1. the court of your immediate liege lord which serves as your local district/circuit court
  2. the court of that liege lord's liege lord and/or the Lord Paramount as the court of appeals
  3. the court of the Iron Throne as the supreme court.
13 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yep.  I really didn't mind the change.  Expedient, in its best way.

I don't mind it either. Although it might have made more sense if they squabbled about the issue on Dragonstone and were more or less forced to take it to the Red Keep

Edited by BlackLightning
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5 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

My point still stands, but I have to listen more carefully. 

Oh I totally agree with your point, just saying.

1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

I don't mind it either. Although it might have made more sense if they squabbled about the issue on Dragonstone and were more or less forced to take it to the Red Keep

Meh, I like Daemon whispering "say it" just so he can chop his head in half once he does.  It was fun.

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34 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Did he?  Viserys looked awful in the two episodes proceeding this when it would be to soon for Otto to have done anything.

Right but like you don't just recover from years of slow poisoning because you stopped drinking poison. I'd imagine. 

I don't really think they're going for that anyway. I think a little too much milk of the poppy. was the show version of that idea.

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