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[Spoilers] Episode 108 Discussion


Ran
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I like how they are having it so that Princess Rhaenys is present -- and basically trapped -- in King's Landing for the coup of the Greens.

It makes so much sense from a thematic standpoint (Princess Rhaenys was and still is the most senior member of House Targaryen, she was present and accounted for at nearly every major event that happened in the last two-thirds of Viserys' reign) but from a dramatic standpoint as well.

13 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Right but like you don't just recover from years of slow poisoning because you stopped drinking poison. I'd imagine. 

I don't really think they're going for that anyway. I think a little too much milk of the poppy. was the show version of that idea.

Great point.

The books establish that drinking even a little too much milk of the poppy is very dangerous to both mind and body. It's what's wrong with Sweetrobin. Even though he doesn't ingest nearly as much as he used to.

 

If they are truly implying that Otto has been slowly ushering Viserys into an earlier grave, then I expect that reveal to be unfolded in this episode.

Rhaenys is anti-Rhaenyra at this point but the depraved actions of Otto, Alicent and their Green cohorts that are about to unfold in this episode are going to push her over the edge and firmly into Team Black.

1 minute ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Helaena: “Beware the beast under the boards.

I love Helaena and I love what they are doing with her in the show.

But there is absolutely no way of determining what she is talking about at this point. I wish I can say that it is a clear prophetical reference to Blood and Cheese but I'm not so sure.

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9 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I love Helaena and I love what they are doing with her in the show.

But there is absolutely no way of determining what she is talking about at this point. I wish I can say that it is a clear prophetical reference to Blood and Cheese but I'm not so sure.

Same.

I need a rewatch.

Blessed is the HBOMax app, accessible while in my dragonfire-hot bubble bath. Huzzah.

Edited by ShadowKitteh
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8 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The books establish that drinking even a little too much milk of the poppy is very dangerous to both mind and body. It's what's wrong with Sweetrobin. Even though he doesn't ingest nearly as much as he used to.

Milk of the poppy is different than "sweetsleep," which is what LIttlefinger appears to be killing Robin with.  I've always viewed the former as, well, the real world equivalent of poppy, which is opium.  Sweetsleep, though, is established as much more like an actual deadly poison.

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2 hours ago, zajaz said:

Also, I just thought about this: is Vaemond supposed to be a dark foil to Ned? Losing his head and all? It's a shame that, unlike Ned, he does not have a daughter who then vows vengeance against Daemon.

He would totally be a prologue POV in the books. 

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Ok, after a quick rewatch of that scene, I’m going to venture a guess on what Helaena’s, “Beware the beast below the boards” means.

Jacaerys has just finished toasting his uncles health and the hope they can become allies, Aegon mumbles, “You as well.” followed by her line.

Jace’s dragon Vermax reportedly lays a clutch of eggs down in the crypts under Winterfell, or am I remembering that wrong?

Edited by ShadowKitteh
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12 minutes ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

For my own part, I despise their use of Allicent misunderstand the prophecy. It's terrible storytelling and thoroughly umsatisfying for that to be a motivation and the deciding factor in her going through with things.

 

I mean, she would have grasped at any justification.

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Well, that truly was something. Man, was Paddy great in that role. I always liked Viserys I in the book, always stood up to emphasize that the Dance wasn't his fault and he was truly the most powerful Targaryen king, presiding over the most prosperous era. Really great what kind of emotion you can evoke with a string of titles, some music, and an old man with a walking stick. Cool to see Daemon help the old man in the end, I expected him to help make his walk through the throne room, but giving him back is crown was also cool.

(But, man, you should have picked another dragon. It makes no sense, and you know it. Everybody knows it.)

The Velaryons suspecting Daemon-Rhaenyra killed Laenor does make sense ... and as I've gone about since forever - they bloodly well should have believed that in the book, too.

Baela being Rhaenys' ward seems to have been some kind of way smoothing things with the Velaryons does make sense. Although, of course, here, again, there are episodes missing. Or are we to believe Corlys was still keen to hand Driftmark to the son of the woman who may have murdered his son?

Really liked the fact that the women almost made things work again. They were friends in this setting, very close friends, and something like that not just magically disappears. It is really great to see how Otto starts to shit his pants when he realizes Rhaenyra and Alicent are genuinely apologizing to each other.

The leaks said they also included the Daemon-Otto toasts which were, apparently, transparent lies. Alas, if this is true, they were cut. I imagine they must have been there since Otto and Daemon are completely silent at the feast ... and that doesn't make much sense.

And, man, so Viserys actually thinks/believes Rhaenyra is the princess who was promised. What do you know...

Guys, you know what I think. And I want this to go on record, so let us remember this in a couple of years. If they are not happy with Rhaenyra's death in the book - and, honestly, who the hell is? - if they want to change her end, if they want her to survive the show (if Laenor can live, so can Rhaenyra, and we had another king in ASoIaF who pretended to burn another monarch to death, did we not, a monarch who stupidly did burn in GoT...) then I'm saying here and now that the final shot of this show, possibly a post credit scene, could be an aging Rhaenyra sitting in front of a manse with A RED DOOR in what appears to be Braavos, happily reading a letter from her son Viserys telling her that her eldest grandson Daeron has just conquered Dorne.

In a sense that wouldn't just be another big symbolic 'Fuck you!' to the ending of GoT ... but also mirror the ending of the Anarchy on which this whole thing is based on which had Empress Matilda retire in Normandy to see her son ascend the English throne in her stead.

It would have to be good writing to have Rhaenyra survive her own death, of course, but all it needed would be her being imprisoned at Dragonstone for a night or two, and somebody has to switch her body for that of somebody else. Don't want a lot of other 'secret true history' stuff ... but this is something I could actually enjoy.

Blast, still nobody mentioned Daeron. If he is mentioned as the reports said, it must be in the next episode which should be all about the Greens.

Really look forward to Aegon getting drunk on power. Perhaps Alicent gets to slap him another time next week, before the coronation, but it will be the last time one hopes. Not sure about the casting of adult Aemond. He looks to old and is too tall - while Aegon seems to have shrunken. Wasn't his youth actor larger than the new guy. He is a great actor and should nail the role for now on, but the difference is striking.

2 minutes ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

For my own part, I despise their use of Allicent misunderstand the prophecy. It's terrible storytelling and thoroughly umsatisfying for that to be a motivation and the deciding factor in her going through with things.

That isn't 'the deciding factor' ... but it is a crucial factor as to why Alicent goes with Aegon.

I mean, independent of Rhaenyra-Alicent reconciling, Aegon's actions in that very episode made it crystal clear that no same person would want to crown him. The guy is an asshole, an incompetent lout, basically another Aegon IV in the making. Alicent prides herself on serving the Realm, doing her duty ... it is insanity to crown Aegon if you tell yourself that's what you are doing.

So the fact that she now also has her dying husband's last words/wish as justification for Aegon's coronation certainly adds some flavor to things. Because this Alicent doesn't seem to be the kind of woman who wants to betray her husband and king. She will likely also insidiously and meticulously planning a coup with her shithead father whilst Viserys' decaying corpse lies rotting in his bed for days and weeks.

This is the kind of addition that would make sense in context. It has also potential to be used in convincing Aegon to take the throne ... and to make him loathe his mother (even more) because he might always think or suspect it was a blatant lie.

Vaemond Velaryon is truly an utter moron. His house? His king is not telling him what to do with his house? What did that guy smoke, really? Who did he think he was addressing there? Some other lord?

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I mean if she didn't misinterpret his last words, she would have been talked into it by Otto or Larys or her Septon.

Alicent wants to believe she's doing the right thing.

Because no logical person would believe the rambling of her insane half-dead husband is the secret.

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I also like how they explicitly showed that this whole Velaryon succession crisis was a (rather ingenious) plot of the Greens to completely undermine Rhaenyra and disinherit her without the king's leave.

Even if the three Velaryon boys were denounced as bastards, Baela and Rhaena both still come before Vaemond in law and tradition.

So much for Vaemond's speech about law and tradition lol

That's the problem that I have with the Greens. As TV Rhaenyra so succinctly pointed out last episode (or rather, six years ago), they profess to be on the side of law and order and righteousness but those are just their cloaks. They are really envious, greedy and spiteful. Vaemond had already been established as a loose cannon who was resentful of both Corlys and Daemon.

 

Yes, Vaemond told the truth but when you tell the truth in a way that is meant to be destructive and manipulative...you are no better than the liar who lies out of self-preservation or self-interest.

They are all hypocrites.

And I like the way that the show is showing the fact that most of the Greens are opportunisitic hypocrites without completely whitewashing the Blacks.

Edited by BlackLightning
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To me, I read Alicent not so much misinterpreting honestly... but to some degree hearing what she wants to hear, filtering out every question that his rambling raises like, "He thinks he's talking to Rhaenyra, right?" or "Isn't it wrong to blow up the peace he had just forged, a peace that would protect me, by saying anything about this?"

She wants to be right. She wants Rhaenyra to be wrong. She hears what she wants to hear and pushes back any doubts about it. 

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Even if this was a depressing episode in many ways, it may be the one I've enjoyed the most since probably the premiere.

Good things:

  • Paddy Considine really went away with a blast. Both the scene in the throne room and his speech in the family supper were superb.
  • All the children are being characterized very well with only a few lines. The looks, the poses, the movements are excellently directed and acted.
  • Very nice work with the relationship between Daemon and Daemon. It was real fun seeing how Aemond admired Daemon when he killed Vaemond, and in return, it seemed that Daemon really respected the kid for daring to 'toast' to his nephews the way he did.
  • I like how Lord Caswell is being presented as the main pro-Rhaenyra representative on court. It'll be sad to see him gone.

Things I didn't like:

  • I don't think it's realistic that the king had to be introduced to little Aegon and Viserys. Those kids would have been presented to court shortly after birth. Also, why would Rhaneyra have spent more than three years away from King's Landing? If she married Daemon to fight against the green faction, what's the point of staying in Dragonstone?
  • I don't see the point of the scene in the beginning with Daemon stealing the eggs and giving them away to the Dragonkeepers.
  • Is there a single ship (or ship design) in the realm? It made sense until now if you assumed it was the royal ship, but it shouldn't have been used for Rhaenyra to travel from Dragonstone to the capital.
  • Everything that they have done with the prophecy doesn't work much for me. It seems forced, and unrelated to this story.

Random thoughts:

  • Viserys is already dead, and the black faction hasn't still received it's name. Is it too late?
  • Rhaenyra and Alicent's farewell was sweet, specially if one thinks that it's their last scene together until the Fall of King's Landing.
Edited by The hairy bear
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7 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't see the point of the scene in the beginning with Daemon stealing the eggs and giving them away to the Dragonkeepers.

It's the Targaryen version of being a hands on English country manor lord -- but instead of overseeing and helping with the lambing, they go help collect the new eggs. We thought it pretty fun, and it shows that at present Daemon is fundamentally happy with his life.

Edited by Ran
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7 minutes ago, Ran said:

It's the Targaryen version of being a hands on English manor lord -- but instead of overseeing and helping with the lambing, they go help collect the new eggs. We thought it pretty fun, and it shows that at present Daemon is fundamentally happy with his life.

That and since Rhaenyra’s pregnant, they need a new egg for the new baby’s cradle. Daemon’s being a good Dad. 

Edited by ShadowKitteh
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