[Spoilers] Episode 108 Discussion

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

4 hours ago, Rockroi said:

Why I Should Be Beheaded: a Story in Two Parts.”

Ha!  

Daemon demonstrated his love for whores in a broad stroke.

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe

[Khloey]

This was a nice episode, but no as good as the last one (even though I strongly object to Laenor's fate).

Viserys is the best part of this episode. We only really liked other characters during their interractions with him (Daemon, Rhaenyra, Alicent). Farewell Paddy and thank you.

I really like the fact that Rhaenys doesn't seem to favor Rhaenyra over Alicent at this point.

Also I loved Viserys' walk in the throne room, but I really didn't like what they did with Vaemond, his speech was ridiculous. It felt fake, to the point where you're glad Daemon takes his head off, even though he's being killed for speaking the truth.

I also wished they showed the darker sides of Rhaenyra by now, not having her fed Vaemond's corpse to her dragon doesn't help.

GRRM said he was happy the show portraying a story of grey characters.. I'm still waiting. There is a clear distinction between the good guys and bad guys. Hope that will change in the next season.

Didn't like Jace's characterization either. It felt force and fake, the lines just don't seem right.

On the other hand, I don't mind that Aegon is a rapist, he's always been terrible in the book, but I wished he would have been more layered as a character, that we would see he's been hurt by Viserys' favor to Rhaenyra. He could also have said to his mother at some point, why should I care about my behaviour ? You behave like a saint, and yet Rhaenyra is the favorite one though she's had bastard.

I don't think the show has done enough to humanize Alicent's motivation and disliked of Rhaenyra. If she had been unfaithful and had bastard, she and her children would have been put to the sword. Viserys' double standards...

On the other hand, I know lots of people don't like that Aemond looks older than Aegon, but I LOVE it.

It really emphases that, of the two children, he's the serious one, the one who actually cares about legacy and will stops at nothing to defend it. He looks much older than Aegon but he's the one acting like an adult. Really like the physical similarity between him and Daemon.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Khloey

[Aladdin]

With regards to ending I think it has to be taken within the context of the show as a whole. Alicent has spent what, like 15 years now making way for Aegon to be king against Viserys’ wishes? I don’t think the brief reconciliation we see with Rhaeneyra is ever real. It’s an expression of her brief doubts due to Aegon once again demonstrating that he’s genuinely awful candidate for the throne (and an awful person in general). If she believed in her heart that Rhaeneyra should be queen she wouldn’t have seized on Viserys’ words—which she clearly didn’t understand at all—so quickly.

This isn’t her suddenly deciding “oh there’s this important prophecy to fulfill and Aegon must be king”. It’s Alicent backsliding and taking even the tiniest excuse to return to her prior ambitions which she has been building on for 15 years. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Tha_Prince_Ali

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Even if this was a depressing episode in many ways, it may be the one I've enjoyed the most since probably the premiere.

Good things:

• Paddy Considine really went away with a blast. Both the scene in the throne room and his speech in the family supper were superb.
• All the children are being characterized very well with only a few lines. The looks, the poses, the movements are excellently directed and acted.
• Very nice work with the relationship between Daemon and Daemon. It was real fun seeing how Aemond admired Daemon when he killed Vaemond, and in return, it seemed that Daemon really respected the kid for daring to 'toast' to his nephews the way he did.
• I like how Lord Caswell is being presented as the main pro-Rhaenyra representative on court. It'll be sad to see him gone.

Things I didn't like:

• I don't think it's realistic that the king had to be introduced to little Aegon and Viserys. Those kids would have been presented to court shortly after birth. Also, why would Rhaneyra have spent more than three years away from King's Landing? If she married Daemon to fight against the green faction, what's the point of staying in Dragonstone?
• I don't see the point of the scene in the beginning with Daemon stealing the eggs and giving them away to the Dragonkeepers.
• Is there a single ship (or ship design) in the realm? It made sense until now if you assumed it was the royal ship, but it shouldn't have been used for Rhaenyra to travel from Dragonstone to the capital.
• Everything that they have done with the prophecy doesn't work much for me. It seems forced, and unrelated to this story.

Random thoughts:

• Viserys is already dead, and the black faction hasn't still received it's name. Is it too late?
• Rhaenyra and Alicent's farewell was sweet, specially if one thinks that it's their last scene together until the Fall of King's Landing.

I think Rhaenyra presented Aegon and Viserys to the king because he probably doesn’t remember meeting them. He barely even remembers that he has more than one child.

 

Marrying Daemon made peace with the greens even more unlikely. This guy just beheaded someone without warning. No parent would ever put their children’s fate in his hands.

[Cashless Society]

8 hours ago, zajaz said:

Also, was it just me, or did it look like Ser Crispin Cole was sparring with Aemond as played by Crispin Glover for a second there?

I've pent the past couple of months who adult Aemond reminds me of.

8 hours ago, teej6 said:

Okay, from this episode it seems like Rhaenyra believes Laenor was murdered. So she was not in on the fake death plan? This is odd. 

She's maintaining the façade that that Laenor is dead.

8 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What was her lie?

A lie by omission as Rhaenyra is continuing to mislead Rhaenys in believing that Laenor is dead.

7 hours ago, farerb said:

Does Rhaenys really have an authority to accept or reject marriage offers for Baela and Rhaena? Daemon is their father, shouldn't he be the one to the decide whom they marry?

That was not the aim of the scene. Rhaenyra is trying to have the Velaryons as an ally, to do this she has to curry favour with Rhaenys. Both of them know that Rhaenyra's elder sons are bastards and that Rhaenys would rather have Baela inherit Driftmark. The marriage proposal is meant to be a compromise that allows one of her actual descendants to inherit Driftmark while another inherits the Iron Throne. 

7 hours ago, RumHam said:

I still feel like there's room to reveal that Otto had been poisoning him for years. The king improved in his absence, and then withered when Otto returned. 

Otherwise someone needs to explain what is was up with his health. 

I was under the impression that his condition slowed down due to the better treatment that Orwyle was giving him as opposed to Mellos' treatment. This is what gave him the extra ~16 years. Had Mellos still been in charge, Viserys would have died sometime in the 10 year time jump.

7 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

It really looks like Leprosy to me.

Yeah, the actor confirmed it in one of the inside the episode features.

7 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Another travesty. 
 

Alicent’s king to be is a rapist, and Alicent gaslights the victim like a thug. 
 

Meanwhile over at Dragonstone saint Rhaenyra raises three (four) pure hearted children, one who wants to learn Valyrian to be a good king even though he has many years to go. 
 

Meanwhile the Greens are practicing elder abuse just in case you couldn’t figure out they were the bad guys. 
 

Then hero Daemon comes out and kills the guy who calls his girl a whore like a true ally. Oh and in case you still don’t know Alicent is evil they put a lot of religious iconography because ya know, religious woman = bad.  
 

Oh, and that ending just nukes any case for character motivation. They couldn’t come up with a reason for Alicent to take the throne so they decide to go with a misunderstanding over their stupid prophecy BS that no one who is watching HotD for the first time will understand. 
 

Wonderful acting wasted on a garbage script.

I don't know why anyone can't react to your posts, but I just wanted to let you know that this comment is absolute comedy gold.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't see the point of the scene in the beginning with Daemon stealing the eggs and giving them away to the Dragonkeepers.

Daemon wasn't stealing eggs, he was collecting them, as Rhaenyra is pregnant with their third child. I also think the scene is meant to show how Daemon acts around people who value him against those that don't (at least according to Daemon). Compare this act with him stealing the dragon egg (chosen by Rhaenyra) meant for Viserys' son.

[frenin]

What is with this second seans claiming  seats that aren't theirs, theirs by right?

By what right?

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't think it's realistic that the king had to be introduced to little Aegon and Viserys. Those kids would have been presented to court shortly after birth.

This man refers to Rhaenyra as his "only child", do you truly believes he remembers having met his youngest grandkids?

 

[butterweedstrover]

27 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This guy just beheaded someone without warning. No parent would ever put their children’s fate in his hands.

For calling his wife a whore. It was a redeeming moment for the guy who killed his last wife. 

[Cashless Society]

36 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Marrying Daemon made peace with the greens even more unlikely. This guy just beheaded someone without warning. No parent would ever put their children’s fate in his hands.

And the greens made peace even more unlikely by allowing Vaemond to petition his claim in the King's court.

[Winterfell is Burning]

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

For calling his wife a whore. It was a redeeming moment for the guy who killed his last wife. 

I don't think beheading a man, going behind his back leaving no chance of defending himself, and against the King's wishes, is a redeeming moment.

 

[butterweedstrover]

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

 

I don't see what the problem is. Aegon has always been a drunk, a rapist and a loser. 

He was?

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Aemond's bloodlust and bitterness was always clear

So was Daemon's but the show frames him as a total badass, slicing the guy's head open when he calls his wife a whore. I mean they might have used that scene to show Rhaenyra's vindictive or brutal side, but nah. 

Aemond is just... I don't even have the words to explain. Daemon in the early episodes at least had a glib attitude that gave him color, Aemond is just a void of nothingness. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

. And Alicent is more than implied to have done things like this...and worse. 

Well, you know I don't think religious women are evil, or that Alicent promoting religious iconography makes her evil. But the showrunners have there own opinions about that stuff and it shows. It's all just synonymous to zealotry for them. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The Greens practice elder abuse? 

Manipulating him into doing things he doesn't want, removing his agency, denying his will. That is elder abuse. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

the Greens had allowed King Viserys to rot to the point where the stench was all over the entire castle. 

When he was dead, to hide the body. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

 

Daemon killing Vaemond Velaryon is also very much so book accurate.

Did he call Rhaenyra a whore? Cause I think they just added that to make sure we knew he got what was coming for him. And they made sure that Rhaenyra herself is totally absolved of any involvement just in case viewers might think there is any ambiguity going on here. 

Not exactly book accurate with that. And since you are willing to overlook one-dimensional characterization due to accuracy, then why feel the need to alter the material so that things are even less interesting. 

I mean, if the Greens are just rapists, zealots, and psychopaths with no legitimate grievances than why even waste time with their perspective? No one sympathizes with them at all so why give viewers a seat inside their heads and split the show for sake of their character arcs?

Hannibal is more interesting and multifaceted than the Greens. At least he has reasons for doing what he does outside of being an asshole.  

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The whole process of it ending up before the king himself was a process. A lot like our modern-day court system.

it showcases a deep change in Alicent 

No it doesn't. Alicent was always portrayed as religious, especially in her righteous condemnation of Rhaenyra. The show just wants you to know she is a hypocrite. 

Removing the cool Targaryen (Nazi) decorations with symbols of the faith is meant to show you how Alicent is a zealot.

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think you're complaining to be complaining. Would you rather Alicent be a selfish, grasping opportunistic stepmother who listened to Viserys' last words and didn't care? 

HAHAHAHA! 

I too love when that BS prophecy was used as motivation for Alicent to betray Rhaenyra, because they literally could come up with nothing else. 

That is an atrocity of writing, to have 8 (!!!) hours of character development to try and build up potential motivations and then to just give up at the end. Alicent only pursued the throne because... why? And now we have a reason and it is totally irrelevant to her character. 

Incidentally, the show only depicts her as good when she is defending Rhaenyra, externalizing the source of her morality onto someone else. The message being that Rhaenyra is the good guy and Alicent's only redeeming qualities are when she sides with the good guy. Everything else is just a void of evil. 

God, this show is so stupid. I kind of wanted Rhaenyra and Alicent to make-out in their last scene together. It looked like they wanted to and it'd be a hell of a lot more interesting than what we got. 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[butterweedstrover]

4 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

I don't think beheading a man, going behind his back leaving no chance of defending himself, and against the King's wishes, is a redeeming moment.

 

Daemon is kind of the fall guy for the Blacks to remove any culpability from their character (and by extension the audience). God forbid Viserys or (the horror) Rhaenyra might be implicated in his death. 

So to keep the good guys clean they used resident badass to cut his head open. And you would think that'd be the end of it, but they also had to make sure Vaemond called Rhaenyra a whore which is literally the worse these showrunners can imagine a person doing.  

Now Daemon is standing up for his wife. He isn't just killing someone for speaking the truth, he is killing someone who called his girl a whore. 

Afterwards no one gives a shit, not even the king. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Honestly, I thought that the "strong boys" toast was a bit underwhelming. I expected it to be a grand moment with an epic background score and everything, but it was pretty solemn. I don't know, maybe it's just me.

[Tywin's Wallet]

RIP Viserys -  At least his last memory was of a happy dinner with his family he so loved. But also so sad because we could all see the "beast beneath the board" peaking it's ugly head. Tension was too much. But good on Alicent and Rhaenyra for reconciling (however short-lived).

Then -please don't tell me Alicent is going to be seriously consider that her Aegon is the PTWP lol fat NO. Did ya'll hear that short choaking sound after Dyana the servant girl drank the tea - is it because she was crying already and maybe couldn't drink the tea appropriately or was she killled? The fact that she embraced Haleana when she asked for her got me thinking they got rid of the poor girl. RIP Dyana.

Also - Talya is Mushroom. 

[Tywin's Wallet]

22 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Honestly, I thought that the "strong boys" toast was a bit underwhelming. I expected it to be a grand moment with an epic background score and everything, but it was pretty solemn. I don't know, maybe it's just me.

Yeah - maybe they were going for unresolved tension in this episode. Cus as great as the episode was the stress made it hard to watch in a sense. Quite the experience!

[Cashless Society]

43 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Honestly, I thought that the "strong boys" toast was a bit underwhelming. I expected it to be a grand moment with an epic background score and everything, but it was pretty solemn. I don't know, maybe it's just me.

This is actually one of the aspects of the show that I'm enjoying. The narrators don't have that much access to the interior lives of the characters and so present events that are commonly known to be grander than what they actually were to compensate. 

[Tywin's Wallet]

10 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

She said she wasn't involved.

Let's say Rhaenyra tells the truth and then what? Rhaenys flies across the sea to drag Laenor back just to find out Laenor is happy with Qarl or another man in complete rejection of Rhaenys' traditions and desires causing more strife, hurt and more rumors. Just leave it alone - some family separations are actually good. Rhaenys and Corlys should have accepted Laenor and stood by him and work out their own succession issues. Dead or alive losing Laenor was Rahenys' and Corlys' doing.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

It is a bit hypocritical of the show runners though to after all this time of avoiding Mushroom’s version of events but then think it’s fine to start adding his events but only for Aegon 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Stannis is the man....nis

[Bael's Bastard]

8 hours ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

For my own part, I despise their use of Allicent misunderstand the prophecy. It's terrible storytelling and thoroughly umsatisfying for that to be a motivation and the deciding factor in her going through with things.

I assume it will be a factor, but when it gets down to it, Rhaenyra's marriage to Daemon guaranteed that Otto and Alicent were not just going to go along with putting the fate of her sons in their hands.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

19 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I assume it will be a factor, but when it gets down to it, Rhaenyra's marriage to Daemon guaranteed that Otto and Alicent were not just going to go along with putting the fate of her sons in their hands.

Which means that there was no need for the prophecy scene at all.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

I don't think beheading a man, going behind his back leaving no chance of defending himself, and against the King's wishes, is a redeeming moment.

 

Given his accusations put his wife and his stepchildren in danger, I absolutely think killing him is a good thing from the perspective of a husband.

But no, I don't think you come back from Uxoricide.