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[Spoilers] Episode 108 Discussion


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37 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

It is a bit hypocritical of the show runners though to after all this time of avoiding Mushroom’s version of events all this time for the characters but then think it’s fine to start adding his events but only for Aegon 

What have they added for Aegon? 

 

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Honestly, I thought that the "strong boys" toast was a bit underwhelming. I expected it to be a grand moment with an epic background score and everything, but it was pretty solemn. I don't know, maybe it's just me.

Why would you expect that? I'm curious.

 

 

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I was waiting for some groundbreaking scene from Aemond after the critics hyped him to moon and back all week only for him to just stand and look like an psycho/Daemon cosplayer. I mean, the toast was fine but it came across more of him still being bitter about a childs joke that even his own brother was involved lol

Anyway, Pad and Matt Smith the highlights as always.

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7 hours ago, Ran said:

It's the Targaryen version of being a hands on English country manor lord -- but instead of overseeing and helping with the lambing, they go help collect the new eggs. We thought it pretty fun, and it shows that at present Daemon is fundamentally happy with his life.

I idly wondered if Daemon turned all the eggs over?  I have no support except for, of course, knowing Daemon's character, but he seemed surreptious and quick to offer 'some number' of eggs.

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9 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The fact he's a rapist.

But that is no Mushroom tho.

 

7 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said:

I was waiting for some groundbreaking scene from Aemond after the critics hyped him to moon and back all week only for him to just stand and look like an psycho/Daemon cosplayer. I mean, the toast was fine but it came across more of him still being bitter about a childs joke that even his own brother was involved lol

Anyway, Pad and Matt Smith the highlights as always.

Tbf, the only good thing Aemond has going on over Daemon is that he prefers older women. In every other aspect, he's Daemon lite. I quite like him.

 

 

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I’m surprised by how many fans loved this episode. I mostly found it really boring.

I also think we’re starting to see the writers’ limitations. With the exception of a few characters, such as Viserys, they don’t seem to really know how to develop the characters without direct source material. Just look at how extraneous Daemon has been since the ten-year jump.

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40 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Which means that there was no need for the prophecy scene at all.

Exactly. Either the prophecy was necessary and that's dumb or it wasn't necessary and they added it anyway and that's also dumb.

Anyway, it was clear that Allicent had put away her strife and was going to move forward with honoring her husband's wishes that Rhaenyra be queen. That's what they showed us and people can deny it if they want it was clear that things had changed and Allicent was prepared to move forward with friendship. And it is only because of the prophecy misunderstanding that Allicent will follow through with ursurping Rhaenyra. She now thinks it was her husband's dying wish that Aegon be king.

That's what they put on the screen and there's no uncertainty to this. It's the clear story they told - all else equal, the prophecy misunderstanding is what prevents Allicent from supporting Rhaenyra.

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Very boring.

Alicent didnt need to hear that stupid ass prophecy ramblings not even 5% viewer take it seriously.She already has enough reason given brutality of Daemon and her son's strong claim which from commoners to high lords has a good following. Doesnt make her good or likeable.

Daemon is turned into this medium of gobbling Rhaenyra's bad traits. She doesnt pass her cruel order like in FAB by her uncle-husband to kill Vaemond nor she feeds him to her Syrax. She supports her way-ward black husband and fully admires and supports his tastes. She is created as a character to fill out every boxes for tv audience against great evil "Trump voter" faction as the showrunner said.

Alicent is already a mad & evil woman attacking her step daughter and keeping Larys while fully knowing his deeds. All the Mushroom tales on Aegon is made true but for sure there wont be any brothel queens or big role for Daemon in Blood and Cheese episode as it'll reflect badly on her for audicence in this instance just as the murder of Laenor would have.

Its funny how they say all bad tales of black is green propaganda. When in aftermath we have Rhaenyra's son as King, his sister wed to Lord Hightower's brother and Lord Hightower being BFFs with Alyn Velaryon.
Mushroom becomes true source when it comes to his tales of green faction but not when its tales about  Blacks. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

Exactly. Either the prophecy was necessary and that's dumb or it wasn't necessary and they added it anyway and that's also dumb.

Anyway, it was clear that Allicent had put away her strife and was going to move forward with honoring her husband's wishes that Rhaenyra be queen. That's what they showed us and people can deny it if they want it was clear that things had changed and Allicent was prepared to move forward with friendship. And it is only because of the prophecy misunderstanding that Allicent will follow through with ursurping Rhaenyra. She now thinks it was her husband's dying wish that Aegon be king.

That's what they put on the screen and there's no uncertainty to this. It's the clear story they told - all else equal, the prophecy misunderstanding is what prevents Allicent from supporting Rhaenyra.

I don't think it was clear at all.

I think she was THINKING about it but Alicent has been on this road for 16 years. Do we really think she would be turned around by Viserys' speech at the table?

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3 minutes ago, Lightoftheast said:

Its funny how they say all bad tales of black is green propaganda. When in aftermath we have Rhaenyra's son as King, his sister wed to Lord Hightower's brother and Lord Hightower being BFFs with Alyn Velaryon.
Mushroom becomes true source when it comes to his tales of green faction but not when its tales about  Blacks.

Oh that's just nonsense. Mushroom is the source of 90% of Rhaenyra being a harlot stories.

Something that is worse than all of the murder and brutality stories by Westeros standards.

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10 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Rhaenyra is the liege of all the island Houses in the Blackwater and the Narrow Sea. Vaemond rightfully took the issue before his liege and Rhaenyra/Daemon brought the gavel down on him. Perhaps bit too harshly but Viserys had already said what he said.

Rhaenyra having Daemon execute Vaemond folks do play up as her being cruel ... but House Velaryon didn't mind. Corlys didn't mind, Rhaenys didn't mind, and they hate the Silent Five for actually joining the Greens during the war. This was as much a blatant and transparent power grab in the book as it is in the show - where that ass Vaemond completely ignores the claims of his grand-nieces Baela and Rhaena. Vaemond isn't executed because he talked about bastards, he is executed because he tried to steal Driftmark from its rightful heir.

10 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

And I think it was Vaemond's sons who idiotically appealed to the Iron Throne (the Iron Throne serves as the Supreme Court, the ultimate appeals court in the land) and got their tongues removed.

No, the Silent Five are Vaemond's cousins. In the book, Corlys has at least two younger brothers who predeceased him. Vaemond is the son of the elder brother, and thus Corlys' nephew, the tongueless Velaryons are five brothers who are all sons of the younger brother. They take Vaemond's widow and her children to court, but in front of Viserys only the five nephews speak, not the woman nor her sons. Thus they keep their tongues. Vaemond's sons are Daemion and Daeron Velaryon. Both make their peace with Alyn after Corlys' death, unlike the surviving Silent Ones, and Daeron dies in service to Alyn at the Stepstones. He and his wife Hazel Harte are the parents of Aegon III's second queen, Daenaera Velaryon.

In the show it made sense to play this up as a Green conspiracy thing ... which I guess is there beneath the lines, too, in the book, since Vaemond might have only acted this brashly if he had reason to believe the king would either not care or actually support him due to Alicent's and Otto's machinations.

11 hours ago, farerb said:

I didn't say he would object. On the contrary. It's his and Rhaenyra's decision to make, not Rhaenys. With all due respect to House Velaryon, Baela and Rhaena are still Targaryen Princesses. The Lady of Driftmark should not have any say in this matter. Rhaenyra might show her some courtesy, but in the end both Rhaenyra and Daemon can veto whatever objection Rhaenys has.

In the show, Baela is apparently made the ward of Rhaenys, possibly to try to repair the relationship to some degree in the wake of Laenor's death and the sudden Daemon-Rhaenyra marriage.

Baela and Rhaena are not 'Targaryen princesses' - they are mere ladies. Rhaena's true guardian now is Princess Rhaenyra, her stepmother, and in Baela's case Rhaenys, since they apparently gave her to Rhaenys. How a marriage to Rhaenyra works you can see when she flat-out commands Laenor to do what she wants. She could do that with Daemon, too, one imagines, although he might be less inclined to obey.

In that context I really loathe the fact how Vaemond and Corlys talk to Rhaenys. The one thing in the book we get about Rhaenys' character is that she is prone to angry outbursts ... to the point that the theory is that Corlys was too afraid of his wife to acknowledge his bastard sons. This indicates that Rhaenys wielded considerable power in this marriage, possibly more than Corlys himself due to her dragon and her Targaryen blood and the fact that she could have been queen. Yet Vaemond's talk basically implies she has no saying in her husband's succession nor any power to challenge him. Just as if her huge dragon didn't even exist.

We can assume that Rhaenyra made her original offer to Rhaenys after speaking with Daemon about it, and in fact, it seems clear that this was what Rhaenyra wanted to do from the start. Remember how she set up Jace to spend time with his cousins last episode, how the girls ran to the boys when Vhagar disappeared, how they fought on their behalf against Aemond?

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25 minutes ago, Lightoftheast said:

She doesnt pass her cruel order like in FAB by her uncle-husband to kill Vaemond nor she feeds him to her Syrax.

Still don't consider it a cruel order, in fact i would have loved if she actually ordered in the show. Vaemond got it coming, sorry not sorry.

I find it hard to swallow for them to remove her agency.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Lightoftheast said:

All the Mushroom tales on Aegon is made true

:rolleyes:

Quote

 The groom was fifteen years of age; a lazy and somewhat sulky boy, Septon Eustace tells us, but possessed of more than healthy appetites, a glutton at table, given to swilling ale and strongwine and pinching and fondling any serving girl who strayed within his reach.

Mushroom is not the one who states that Aegon is fond of sexually assaulting women in public, the idea that the Aegon described by Eustace  is not capable of raping is both hilarious and disturbing.

Leave my man Mushroom out of this one. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Lightoftheast said:

She supports her way-ward black husband and fully admires and supports his tastes.

Does she have other choice but to support him and keep quiet? Laenos is heir to Driftmark and her ally.

 

 

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1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Given his accusations put his wife and his stepchildren in danger, I absolutely think killing him is a good thing from the perspective of a husband.

But no, I don't think you come back from Uxoricide.

Killing Vaemond doesn't prove him wrong though. Specially not if you go behind his back, right before the king ordered a less drastic measure.

  

52 minutes ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

Exactly. Either the prophecy was necessary and that's dumb or it wasn't necessary and they added it anyway and that's also dumb.

Anyway, it was clear that Allicent had put away her strife and was going to move forward with honoring her husband's wishes that Rhaenyra be queen. That's what they showed us and people can deny it if they want it was clear that things had changed and Allicent was prepared to move forward with friendship. And it is only because of the prophecy misunderstanding that Allicent will follow through with ursurping Rhaenyra. She now thinks it was her husband's dying wish that Aegon be king.

That's what they put on the screen and there's no uncertainty to this. It's the clear story they told - all else equal, the prophecy misunderstanding is what prevents Allicent from supporting Rhaenyra.

It's not just that- it becomes clear than even if the two of them reach a deal, the resentment among the kids is too strong (no pun intended). And Otto and Daemon are not really ever in the mood to pacify anything.

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10 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But there is absolutely no way of determining what she is talking about at this point. I wish I can say that it is a clear prophetical reference to Blood and Cheese but I'm not so sure.

According to the leaks, the meaning of that particular tidbit will be revealed next week. From all accounts it will be an interesting new addition by the show.

Spoiler

It is supposed to be related to Meleys, and how Rhaenys and the crown thieves make their way to Dragonstone. Let's say that they are not going to go their by boat like they do in the book.

 

9 hours ago, Ran said:

To me, I read Alicent not so much misinterpreting honestly... but to some degree hearing what she wants to hear, filtering out every question that his rambling raises like, "He thinks he's talking to Rhaenyra, right?" or "Isn't it wrong to blow up the peace he had just forged, a peace that would protect me, by saying anything about this?"

She wants to be right. She wants Rhaenyra to be wrong. She hears what she wants to hear and pushes back any doubts about it. 

Alicent really has no clue what the old man is talking about there. When he tried to talk to her about dreams and prophecies in episode 3 she seemed to be afraid and not comprehending anything he said, so one imagines he never tried again.

That said - one imagines that Viserys' last words about what she wants to believe was their Aegon will only become important now that they were his last words ... just as Alicent is only going to contemplate the coup now that her husband died rather suddenly and Rhaenyra does not suspect anything of the sort due to their apparent reconciliation.

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4 hours ago, Ran said:

It's the Targaryen version of being a hands on English country manor lord -- but instead of overseeing and helping with the lambing, they go help collect the new eggs. We thought it pretty fun, and it shows that at present Daemon is fundamentally happy with his life.

Did you get the impression the Daemon is living a happy live? I'm not sure I got that vibe. But it's hard to me to decipher whats going on on his mind at any time. For the most part, Daemon is written and played like a psychopath.

But I'd say that my biggest problem with that scene is not Daemon's egg hunt, but the presence of the dragonkeepers.

4 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

That and since Rhaenyra’s pregnant, they need a new egg for the new baby’s cradle. Daemon’s being a good Dad. 

I'd be OK with Daemon picking an egg for his unborn child. But if that's the reason, he would have taken just one, and wouldn't have needed anyone else. Instead, he picks three and gives them to dragonkeepers from King's Landing.

Those dragonkeepers will suposedly bring those eggs back to Dragonpit, where they'll be under the control of the greens. Why would Daemon collaborate in supplying dragon eggs to the capital? It is even not unreasonable to hypothesize that they may be eventually used for Aegon the Elder's children.

7 hours ago, Rockroi said:

The ONLY thing that speech did was guarantee that asshole had to die.  Didn’t he know that?  Didn’t he see how this HAD to end?  He called the kids bastards- okay REALLY bad.  But then decides “You know what?  I may not have gone too far enough.”  And is like “WHOOOOOORRRRREEE!!!!!!” 

Yeah, the problem is the ONLY way that scene can end is with that guy dead and it’s kinda lame that the character id not know that.  Its sort of unrealistic that somebody like that would be that obvious and oblivious at the same time. 

In the "inside the episode"'s clip, the actor playing Vaemond explains his character's actions as "when the petition goes completely sideways for him, he knows that he's going to fall on his sword. But he wants to fall on his world his way, and his way is to tell the absolute truth."

I think this is the only possible reading of Vaemond's actions. He knew perfectly well that those words meant death, but he needed to say them anyway.

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1 minute ago, The hairy bear said:

But I'd say that my biggest problem with that scene is not Daemon's egg hunt, but the presence of the dragonkeepers.

I think Daemon is satisfied with his life at that time. He's on Dragonstone, he has sons, he has dragons, his wife will be queen and he will be her consort. 

What's your issue with the dragonkeepers? They must be around on Dragonstone to help with dragons and their eggs. It's certainly different from the books, of course.

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7 hours ago, Khloey said:

On the other hand, I don't mind that Aegon is a rapist, he's always been terrible in the book, but I wished he would have been more layered as a character, that we would see he's been hurt by Viserys' favor to Rhaenyra. He could also have said to his mother at some point, why should I care about my behaviour ? You behave like a saint, and yet Rhaenyra is the favorite one though she's had bastard.

Aegon doesn't seem to be more of a rapist than Viserys, if you consider marital rape. That's what the sex scene we got between him and Alicent was. Aegon doesn't desire his wife, was forced into an incestuous union he didn't desire, causing Helaena to basically have the same marital sex life as Cersei or Naerys (Aegon really is kind of modelled on the Unworthy or Joffrey there, also with his innuendo about Jace being unable to properly satisfy Baela), so he basically looks for sex among other women - as he clearly already did prior to his marriage.

I see no real difference between the serving girl and Alicent there - the only difference is that the latter was married to Viserys, whilst the serving woman wasn't ... but that shouldn't be important when discussing rape. The whole scene also shows Alicent's hypocrisy that she tries to keep it under the rug when - as Daemon earlier put it - he and Viserys had fucked their way up and down the Street of Silk at Rhaenyra's age in episode 5.

Would anyone really care about Aegon publicly displaying his virility by doing what he wants ... or is that Alicent basically pushing standards for girls onto boys there? If so, that's actually pretty ugly considering that the well-being of the woman - which should be her concern - isn't there at all.

I guess the speculation that she might be killed is a tidbit too much since it wouldn't make sense to give her moon tea if they were to disappear her for good.

I wonder whether they are going to continue with this trend. Aegon's appetites should not disappear just because he is king. It might be interesting to see Essie and Sylvenna Sand when Gaemon Palehair is conceived, and possibly other lovers and paramours as well. Although all of that would stop after Rook's Rest, so it really depends when exactly that will happen.

And they could also make Trystane Truefyre into an (alleged) bastard of Aegon II rather than Viserys, although if Trystane were an elder follow in the show Viserys could go as well (he could have been conceived allegedly while Alicent was on an extended visit with her father in Oldtown during the ten year gap).

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12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Alicent’s king to be is a rapist, and Alicent gaslights the victim like a thug. 

Yes- he's a bad person.  Lots of bad people live in Westeroes and Aegon is one of them.  

But I disagree with Alicent's role.  First and foremost, Alicent treads lightly and actually DOES sympathize with Dianna.  Dianna knows how much trouble she is in and that she could be killed.  Lord knows what Cersei would have done.  Or Dany... Joff ... Tywin ...  Arya... Sansa... fuck Westeroes is filled with morally ambiguous people... its almost like that's the point of the series or something.

Anyway, she then hugs her, calms her and lets the girl know she believes her- which she assuredly does.  She then says to her (paraphrasing)  "Look, others will not be so kind to you as I have been so you probably don't want to tell anyone else about this, even though you've told too many people already" (fact check: true).  The then gives her money and, yeah, Moon tea.  

So to sum up, Alicent is very smart, effective, and protects her side. Stop. The. Presses.  Oh, and she's also understanding, sympathetic and treats the girl as well as anyone would be in Westeroes.  No (further) harm will befall her and her time at the Keep is at an end.  In this universe, its in the top 5 most successful Employments in King Landing's history.   Seriously, its not gaslighting if its legitimately true and the girl is as protected as she can be under the circumstances. 

12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Meanwhile over at Dragonstone saint Rhaenyra raises three (four) pure hearted children, one who wants to learn Valyrian to be a good king even though he has many years to go.

 Yeah.  He's not a fuck.  Some people are like that.  Like... Alicent for instance. 

12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Meanwhile the Greens are practicing elder abuse just in case you couldn’t figure out they were the bad guys

Except its absolutely not elder abuse.  Alicent states plainly that Viserys is in unbearable paid without milk of the poppy.  The show then illustrates this as the King spends several hours without milk of the poppy and is in horrible pain the whole time (while also being amazing).  So... they say he is in constant pain s needs MotP; and without MotP he is in constant pain.  So... 

Look, yeah, they are trying to maneuver their will and try to keep the King on the sidelines.  

But did you see the way Alicent looks at him as he ascends the throne?  Yes, she is upset that her plan is thwarted, but that makes her look all the more powerful: she is deeply and obviously concerned over the King's horrible deterioration.  And its her who embraces him as he says he needs to set things right. That's not elder abuse. And when Aemond makes that crack about the "strong" boys, she immediately jumps at him.  

Yes, I am not rooting for Alicent, but it only means she is on the darker side of this gray, not deep black.  Also known as "Cersei Black."  

12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Oh and in case you still don’t know Alicent is evil they put a lot of religious iconography because ya know, religious woman = bad.  

As... as opposed to Uncle-Fuckers?  And considering the King asks for the prayer?  I think you must be living near Highgarden because this is a Reach.  

12 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Wonderful acting wasted on a garbage script.

I mean, maybe you would like something more attuned to your tastes like "Rings of Power" or a story involving three pigs and a mean wolf. 

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