[Spoilers] Episode 108 Discussion

[Lord Varys]

31 minutes ago, Ran said:

I have seen several people who seem to feel like Rhaenyra and Daemon have cooled their passions, but... on what evidence? Because they aren't ripping one another's clothing off in the episode? He separated a guy's head from his lower jaw for the insult dealt to her, what greater proof of love hath a man?

Have to watch again for my final judgment there ... but Daemon isn't really close to Rhaenyra physically throughout the episode, and to be sure ... he also wasn't the passionate guy last episode. Rhaenyra wanted him, and Rhaenyra wanted the marriage. He went along with it since the alternative was returning to Pentos, but considering his character we should expect this just to be one of his whims. One that lasts much longer than any of his others, to be sure, but the fact that he may have ended up with a noseless baseborn girl as his final lover in the book his 'love' for Rhaenyra may have never been particularly strong. Especially since he apparently shows more devotion to Mysaria in the book than his wife.

Also, you have to differentiate between a husband defending his wife's honor ... and such defense being 'a sign of love'. Both their political survival as a couple and the well-being of their children depend on Vaemond Velaryon not getting away with the shit he pulled.

Also keep in mind how detached and aloof he seems to be of the squabbling Greens and Blacks in episode 7. All that smirking in the background, even after he has had sex with Rhaenyra.

[frenin]

25 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The show sucks. 

Morbid curiosity, why do you keep watching something that upsets you so much. It doesn't seem like you are entertained by it in the slightest. 

 

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The toast is a major moment in the book

Is it tho?

 

Quote

 Mushroom tells us that Aemond One-Eye rose to toast his Velaryon nephews, speaking in mock admiration of their brown hair, brown eyes…and strength. “I have never known anyone so strong as my sweet nephews,” he ended. “So let us drain our cups to these three strong boys.” Still later, the fool reports, Aegon the Elder took offense when Jacaerys asked his wife, Helaena, for a dance. Angry words were exchanged, and the two princes might have come to blows if not for the intervention of the Kingsguard.

The toast isn't even the reason of the fight that erupts, is just as dry and mocking as it is in the show.

[MariannaDantas4]

41 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well I can't speak for that person, but I hate people who can only see things from their own perspective and water down their opponents into caricatures with only the worst possible attributes.  

But more specifically, this seems like a dodge on your part. Because if you, like the showrunners, just view them as pure evil then why base half the perspective characters off of them. It makes your dual narrative one sided. 

The poster you were responding to was referencing how Rhaenyra's character is white washed making the storyline one sided and one dimensional. Meanwhile the Greens were told point blank to act like the 'evil trump voters' https://www.indiewire.com/2022/09/house-of-the-dragon-olivia-cooke-trump-1234766026/ 

Which, if this is supposedly a story of ambiguous morality (as was the case with the first five episodes), way to go in destroying your own concept and narrative potential. 

The show sucks. 

Better give up, some people just want to look to a shiny box, don't ruin it for them... All this series, is a collective of a bunch of "cool" scenes, that if you think about should never have happened, this dudes are D&D all over again...

 

Rhaenyra post-birth just could not somehow tell... come see your grandson, he ain't going nowhere. THE BIG WALK is so cool.

A "war" is dragging for years, and we are losing, but let's just channel rambo and is that simple, don't think about it.

Laena can just drag herself by everyone and her dragon give her are super painful and afflitive death. (They shown dragons sharing feelings with the rider before that.) SO BRAVEEEE

Everyone can kill anyone with any consequence and we should just say "SO COOL!", give me more please

Anyone with a dragon is treated by random people like they are regular folks, nobody fear the dragons, they can smack laenor, push rhaenys around and so on... 

We should bond with every underdeveloped NPC, they put on screen for 10 seconds as ornament.

let's start developing this cast, PLOT TWIST they KNOW are hollow AS FUCK, isn't that fun, now you don't have to think too much, drool and eat a snack baby.

Alicent with a knife going to stab someone, what do we do? Of course let the sort it out, right, nobody interfere?

this weird Dude just go kill his father and brother, he must be very power hungry, no actually he just did it for fun, he doesn't give a crap for being lord, or passing his name onward or anything really, he just like being lord confessor has some lame platonic love and shit.

I mean how can i conceive Vaemond to be that stupid? I just must, he has too be not to ruin the cool scene and daemon and rhaenyra to look good on it.

Viserys couldn't be put in the throne before anyone arrive, he had to show his weakness to everyone in this painfull walk, spending crazy energy for what? but the next scene, people discover that they can carry the king. THE BIG WALK part II

there are so many, but they tell me that is the good television, we should shut up and ask for more...

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, Tijgy said:

She was turned around by Rhaenyra's speech. When Rhaenyra showed appreciation for the fact she took care of her father during the time Rhaenyra was at dragonstone.

I mean not very well since some slurred words and ramblings by a delirious man turned her back.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well I can't speak for that person, but I hate people who can only see things from their own perspective and water down their opponents into caricatures with only the worst possible attributes.  

But more specifically, this seems like a dodge on your part. Because if you, like the showrunners, just view them as pure evil then why base half the perspective characters off of them. It makes your dual narrative one sided. 

The poster you were responding to was referencing how Rhaenyra's character is white washed making the storyline one sided and one dimensional. Meanwhile the Greens were told point blank to act like the 'evil trump voters' https://www.indiewire.com/2022/09/house-of-the-dragon-olivia-cooke-trump-1234766026/ 

Which, if this is supposedly a story of ambiguous morality (as was the case with the first five episodes), way to go in destroying your own concept and narrative potential. 

The show sucks. 

I love how you start your post by complaining about moral absolutes… then you finish your post with an absolute statement about the subjective asthetic value of the show.  I, for one, am quite enjoying the show.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[nara]

1 hour ago, Rockroi said:

As... as opposed to Uncle-Fuckers?  And considering the King asks for the prayer?  I think you must be living near Highgarden because this is a Reach.  

Nicely done.
Related but not humorous—The Hightowers have always been close to the Faith, right? It seems pretty natural that she would lean towards religion without it being a bad thing. However, taking down Targaryen heraldry was sketchy.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

No idea why they didn't, although it could have been Laenor's condition for agreeing to the plan - he could have feared that his father would look for him and drag his sorry ass back to Driftmark to do his duty.

The idea that Rhaenyra would keep this thing a secret from her parents-in-law on her own accord makes no sense at all, considering it cost her rather dearly. If Viserys died earlier, the Velaryons may not have supported her rise to the throne, staying neutral or outright backing a Green coup.

Agreed entirely, this is probably the thing that bothers me most about the show right now.  I guess Rhaenyra may have worried Corlys and/or Rhaenys would try to refuse to allow it, but you definitely don't get that sense with Corlys in episode 7.  His "legacy" is still intact and he's clearly ashamed of his son anyway.  Your notion that Laenor didn't want them to be told, though, is the only thing that makes sense to me.  Which is quite cruel to Rhaenys.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I have seen several people who seem to feel like Rhaenyra and Daemon have cooled their passions, but... on what evidence? Because they aren't ripping one another's clothing off in the episode? He separated a guy's head from his lower jaw for the insult dealt to her, what greater proof of love hath a man?

Agreed.  Their marriage as depicted this episode is easily the happiest and healthiest in the series thus far.  They agree to go to King's Landing together - even though both clearly don't want to - and they are in lockstep with each other the entire episode between confronting Alicent, visiting Viserys, etc.

On the dragon eggs thing - count me as another that did not get the impression at all that Daemon was sending the eggs to the dragonpit/KL at all.  Indeed, I very much assumed he was keeping them for himself/his family and the dragonkeepers there are in his employ on Dragonstone.  I mean, presumably Daemon, Rhaenyra, Jace, Luke, and Rhaena have all been living on Dragonstone for the last six years, so it stands to reason their dragons would be too, thus they would require dragonkeepers to somewhat permanently be on Dragonstone.

[C.T. Phipps]

HOUSE OF THE DRAGON 1x08 "THE LORD OF THE TIDES" is one of the biggest episodes in the series and it's interesting because it is one of the quieter ones. While there's yet another unnecessary time skip, it carries over from the previous episode's development so I'm able to ignore it.

It is a powerful episode with a lot of character development as well as culmination of several important plot arcs. I wouldn't say it's my favorite of the episodes but it is strong enough that I am going to say the show has bounced back from several issues it had previously been suffering due to the constant barrelling forward without pausing to analyze previous characterization.

The premise is Ser Vaemond Velaryon, brother of Corlys, is making a play to become Lord of Driftmark. Corlys has gotten himself severely injured fighting in the Stepstones and this is understandable since the guy has to be, in-universe, in his sixties at the very least. Vaemond also has the point that the official heirs of Driftmark are, in fact, Rhaenyra's bastards with no Velaryon blood in their veins. It should be noted by my pendantic Westerosi scholar heart, though, that he's still not the heir but Daemon's daughters as female children come before uncles in the Andal tradition.

Ser Vaemond has an ace in the hole to forward his claim because he is going to be taking it before Ser Otto Hightower as he's acting as regent for the dying bedridden King Viserys. Given Otto wants more than anything to disinherit Rhaenyra and her heirs, it seems like a slam dunk. Unfortunately, for Otto, Rhaenyra is warned about his treacherous plan and heads to King's Landing where the Hightowers are hiding behind religion as well as have attempted to remove all of her supporters.

Alicent also has an interesting balance between being her darker ruthless side with her nicer more mothering side. Some of the things she does are unforgivable like the fact she covers up for her son's rape in what I'm sure is meant to be an invocation of several other mothers doing the same for afluent white kids in today's society. She also attempts to reconcile with Rhaenyra after one last tragic plea by Viserys before it is all ruined by a misunderstanding.

Speaking of Viserys, Paddy Considine is the MVP of the episode with his best performance yet. He really deserves a Emmy nod if not the actual award. Using the very last of his life, he manages to thwart the Hightower's attempt to seize power. He may not have been a good king but he was a good man (ignoring the whole killing his wife during childbirth thing). He finally dies at the end of the episode but it was after his best act of kingsmanship.

I also have to give credit for the establishing of the stakes between the sons of Alicent Hightower with the sons of Rhaenyra. Some people complain about the fact that the Blacks are being shown to be superior morally while the Greens are shown to be monsters. You know? I have no problem with that whatsoever. The Greens were scum in the books and the Blacks were far more likable, the show is just following suit.

I do have an issue with the fact that Viserys' last words seem to be what gets Alicent to decide on betraying Rhaenyra to crown her son. But not much of an issue as I don't think that she would have honored Viserys' wishes anyway. She's spent twenty years grasping for power and trying to think she was justified in the process. People make too much of the misunderstanding when Alicent clearly was ignoring he was out of his mind. All she wanted was some sort of sign that he wanted Aegon to be on the throne and would have interpreted anything her way (which she did).

In conclusion, solid episode and I am very excited for next week.

[Rockroi]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

In the "inside the episode"'s clip, the actor playing Vaemond explains his character's actions as "when the petition goes completely sideways for him, he knows that he's going to fall on his sword. But he wants to fall on his world his way, and his way is to tell the absolute truth."

I think this is the only possible reading of Vaemond's actions. He knew perfectly well that those words meant death, but he needed to say them anyway.

So... sure?  I mean, its good that you found this info, but I don't like looking at the "Behind the Scenes" stuff because it can be hearsay masquerading as evidence.  The actor thinks something or says something and its not really backed by reality or the thoughts of the creators etc.  Or he is jjust trying to explain his own thoughts.  Or, heck, its the editing of the "behind the scenes."  Add to the fact that the creators can sometimes be on different pages than the actors (just two examples: the ending of "Usual Suspects" the actors thought one person was Kaiser Sose while the producer was sure it was somebody else; more famously, while the writer of "Patton" thought he was creating an anti-war movie, the director and George C. Scott thought it was a pro-war movie). 

But if we are going to go down the road, I think there is some evidence to suggest that this is not the case.  While Vaemond is pontificating about whores and bastards, the look on Otto Hightower's face is "Stop... seriously... stop talking ... ix-nay on the ixtardsb-ays ... "  Because Otto has to be thinking that so long as this guy is alive, his claim is valid, but once he is dead, his claim dies with him... and anyone who MAY follow him will not be available.  If Vaemond is going to "fall on his sword, there is no evidence that he ran this idea by anyone else.... which feels like he should have..  

I also don't want to give Vaemond any credit for "telling the truth" because sometimes assholes couch their bad behavior behind the thin veneer of "Well, I was only telling the truth!"  And I feel like Vaemond is just using this as an excuse to act horribly.  

Then again, that may be the bi-product of living under the oppression of an absolute monarchy; there are so few opportunities to speak truth to power that you have to jump on them.   

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

Agreed entirely, this is probably the thing that bothers me most about the show right now.  I guess Rhaenyra may have worried Corlys and/or Rhaenys would try to refuse to allow it, but you definitely don't get that sense with Corlys in episode 7.  His "legacy" is still intact and he's clearly ashamed of his son anyway.  Your notion that Laenor didn't want them to be told, though, is the only thing that makes sense to me.  Which is quite cruel to Rhaenys.

I think they must revisit the Laenor issue in some fashion, and regardless what they do the truth coming out one way or another could be what causes the friction in the Black camp we get in the early part of the war. Keeping the truth from Corlys/Rhaenys after Laenor and Qarl were safely away makes literally no sense ... unless they really made a solemn promise to Laenor to tell no one, his parents included.

If that were not the case then the obvious way to go would have been to give Laenor/Qarl a head start and then tell the grieving parents what happened to prevent a lasting rift between the two families. That they wouldn't do this if they didn't have a good reason not to ... just doesn't make any sense.

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

On the dragon eggs thing - count me as another that did not get the impression at all that Daemon was sending the eggs to the dragonpit/KL at all.  Indeed, I very much assumed he was keeping them for himself/his family and the dragonkeepers there are in his employ on Dragonstone.  I mean, presumably Daemon, Rhaenyra, Jace, Luke, and Rhaena have all been living on Dragonstone for the last six years, so it stands to reason their dragons would be too, thus they would require dragonkeepers to somewhat permanently be on Dragonstone.

Yeah, it is a complete misconception to assume Daemon was stealing eggs and handing them to people controlled by the Greens. It is obvious the Dragonkeeper is supposed to put the eggs into chambers on Dragonstone - where they store the eggs.

A pity, though, that we didn't hear anything about Aegon and Viserys having eggs and/or the hatchling Stormcloud being mentioned.

22 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I also have to give credit for the establishing of the stakes between the sons of Alicent Hightower with the sons of Rhaenyra. Some people complain about the fact that the Blacks are being shown to be superior morally while the Greens are shown to be monsters. You know? I have no problem with that whatsoever. The Greens were scum in the books and the Blacks were far more likable, the show is just following suit.

I think at least Luke looks kind of an ass when he can't stop smirking when he sees the roasted pig, remembering 'the Pink Dread' prank they pulled on Aemond.

I also think Aegon isn't exactly all that serious in his jokes there. He seems to be quite sincerely going along with the honest reconciliation attempts, but he doesn't like being remembered that Jace was the original match for Helaena, nor the notion that another male relation of his might cherish his sister more than he does.

Kind of the Daemon thing from episode 2, there - only I get to insult my brother.

4 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

But if we are going to go down the road, I think there is some evidence to suggest that this is not the case.  While Vaemond is pontificating about whores and bastards, the look on Otto Hightower's face is "Stop... seriously... stop talking ... ix-nay on the ixtardsb-ays ... "  Because Otto has to be thinking that so long as this guy is alive, his claim is valid, but once he is dead, his claim dies with him... and anyone who MAY follow him will not be available.  If Vaemond is going to "fall on his sword, there is no evidence that he ran this idea by anyone else.... which feels like he should have..  

You can see how Vaemond realizes that his entire ploy has failed. He is pissed about that, but my reading of his expression and the scene in general is that he truly doesn't grasp what's at stake now. He was so sure that he would get Driftmark there, and when it all went sideways he just can't stand what has happened just now, grasping at straws to get what he wants or at least hurt his enemies.

(And we can be pretty sure that Harwin Strong never paid Rhaenyra any money to be allowed to sleep with her ... so she is most definitely no whore.)

[frenin]

7 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

But if we are going to go down the road, I think there is some evidence to suggest that this is not the case.  While Vaemond is pontificating about whores and bastards, the look on Otto Hightower's face is "Stop... seriously... stop talking ... ix-nay on the ixtardsb-ays ... "  Because Otto has to be thinking that so long as this guy is alive, his claim is valid, but once he is dead, his claim dies with him... and anyone who MAY follow him will not be available.  If Vaemond is going to "fall on his sword, there is no evidence that he ran this idea by anyone else.... which feels like he should have..  

Vaemond was never going to live much after that, i mean he directly tried to get Driftmark by getting Rhaenyra and her children killed. After Viserys spoke, he was always going to be offed.  He could never return to the Velaryon house without fear of death and it's not like his claim is going to prove useful in the distance.

This is why i prefer Rhaenyra simply seizing and executing the man. Vaemond gets way too much importance.

Btw, @Ran does all inheritance go through salic law in the show? Why does no one mentions that Corlys has two grandaughters?

[Rockroi]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

You can see how Vaemond realizes that his entire ploy has failed. He is pissed about that, but my reading of his expression and the scene in general is that he truly doesn't grasp what's at stake now. He was so sure that he would get Driftmark there, and when it all went sideways he just can't stand what has happened just now, grasping at straws to get what he wants or at least hurt his enemies.

(And we can be pretty sure that Harwin Strong never paid Rhaenyra any money to be allowed to sleep with her ... so she is most definitely no whore.)

Now this description I can get behind (I still don't love it, but it makes more sense); Vaemond is gobsmacked in what is going on.  Everyone knows these kids are bastards, not true Valyerions and unfit to rule well-bread men (and women).  If he says it plainly, he may have thought, it will get people to act on this horrifying injustice.  He starts grasping at straws.  And then the last straw grasped at him.  

Then again . . . Vaemond lives in an autocratic system; a true and unambiguous patriarchy and has his entire life. And his Father's entire life.  And back and back.  This society is conditioned to believe the Crown as Law; there are no courts.  Instead, petitions are heard before... the very same ruler (or a vassal).  Vaemond is well aware of this House's penchant for violence and oppression. 

What I am trying to say is that in this universe- where voicing an objection can get you jailed, mutilated or killed (or worse), I feel that Vaemond- even in his sate of desperate rage - should have known better and realized the ill wisdom of speaking truth to power.  Especially when the power's daughter and her blood-thirsty husband are standing right there.  

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

Btw, @Ran does all inheritance go through salic law in the show? Why does no one mentions that Corlys has two grandaughters?

In the book, the girls are ignored completely, too, in the show Rhaenys wanted Baela to be Corlys' heir last episode. Their claims are real in the show, but Vaemond doesn't care.

[butterweedstrover]

56 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I love how you start your post by complaining about moral absolutes… then you finish your post with an absolute statement about the subjective asthetic value of the show.  I, for one, am quite enjoying the show.

Well, that last sentence was just my opinion based on what I said before. 
 

Granted I can see why people like it. The production value is high and the acting is excellent. 
 

But my god I don’t buy what they’re selling. 

[butterweedstrover]

Ok, some positive stuff. Emma D’arcy has blown me away. 
 

I thought her acting skills would be subpar and that she would have a harsh slant to her delivery. But wow she is making it hard for me to hate Rhaenyra. 
 

I don’t know, I remember people on the subreddit saying Alicent would be more popular because Olivia Cooke is more famous/attractive, but something about Emma’s mannerism is very alluring. 
 

She might have a big future after this show. Also the showrunners have thrown her a major bone by turning Rhaenyra into a saint so the audience won’t be conflicted about loving her. 
 

 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Rockroi said:

Then again . . . Vaemond lives in an autocratic system; a true and unambiguous patriarchy and has his entire life. And his Father's entire life.  And back and back.  This society is conditioned to believe the Crown as Law; there are no courts.  Instead, petitions are heard before... the very same ruler (or a vassal).  Vaemond is well aware of this House's penchant for violence and oppression.

What I am trying to say is that in this universe- where voicing an objection can get you jailed, mutilated or killed (or worse), I feel that Vaemond- even in his sate of desperate rage - should have known better and realized the ill wisdom of speaking truth to power.  Especially when the power's daughter and her blood-thirsty husband are standing right there.  

He doesn't really speak truth to power, though. He presumes he and the king (or the Targaryens) are equals ... and they are not. At best he is confused about things, at the worst too stupid to realize how the world works.

In episode 3 Vaemond was introduced as a malcontent and troublemaker who annoyed Corlys to the point that he was threaten to put him down if he was continuing incite potential mutineers.

The guy clearly is supposed to be a character who doesn't know when to mince his words.

I guess he thought the rotting king wouldn't have the strength to move against him ... but he was mistaken there. Not to mention he simply didn't seem to understand that there are people in this room who would move against him even without the king's explicit command.

[Littlest Finger]

“Beware the beast under the boards” 

The last 2 prophecies from Helaena in episodes 6 and 7 were waayyyyy more in depth and creative with a huge amount of potential double entendre that I enjoyed deciphering…. This one is just basically “beware the rats” …. Which is still a cool nod to the massive surprise plot twist likely coming in the finale of the whole show, but last week I spent like days tying in her words as well as the stuff she’s holding to hints in the book material, as well as the show hints, as well as in mythology. This week’s prophecy seemed weak. Did anyone notice anything else I missed in that scene? Could anyone tell what she was holding in her hand when she said it? They did an immediate quick cut away and then back to her holding her wind cup so I think it was just irrelevant/bad editing, but maybe it WAS something relevant?

[Ran]

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Btw, @Ran does all inheritance go through salic law in the show? Why does no one mentions that Corlys has two grandaughters?

I feel like Vaemond is latching onto the sort of salic decision that informed the Great Council, not just because it's convenient to him but because it would underscore the claim of Alicent's children ahead of Rhaenyra and her children, which is presumably part of why supporting his bid appealed to the Hightowers.

It's true that the girls are not mentioned in F&B as having a claim, but this is no doubt in part because Vaemond doesn't make some formal claim before a court but rather just starts running his mouth on Driftmark, suggesting he's grasping out of personal ambition alone and not for any more complicated reason.

[teej6]

Ser Harrold Westerling appears to be still alive and Lord Commander on the show [or is this something they are going to gloss over and hope the audience forget about him]. Are they going to show he goes to Dragonstone with Darklyn or is Cole going to kill him in Ep 9? 

[The Bard of Banefort]

The more mention is made of the boys being Strongs, the more head-scratching the decision to do so little to develop Harwin as a character is. The first half of the season really does feel like a different show from the second half.