[Spoilers] Episode 108 Discussion

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Morbid curiosity, why do you keep watching something that upsets you so much. It doesn't seem like you are entertained by it in the slightest. 

I’m exaggerating honestly. The production value is very good and the acting is superb. 
 

I just hate to see it waste all the great potential it built up in the first five episodes.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Also, I think they should have done something different with Rhaena’s hair. Since all the Velaryon men wear their hair in braids, it seems unlikely that the women would as well, given the gendered nature of Westeros.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

I feel like Vaemond is latching onto the sort of salic decision that informed the Great Council, not just because it's convenient to him but because it would underscore the claim of Alicent's children ahead of Rhaenyra and her children, which is presumably part of why supporting his bid appealed to the Hightowers.

It's true that the girls are not mentioned in F&B as having a claim, but this is no doubt in part because Vaemond doesn't make some formal claim before a court but rather just starts running his mouth on Driftmark, suggesting he's grasping out of personal ambition alone and not for any more complicated reason.

What do you think the Green game was there? Did Otto and Alicent really want to declare Rhaenyra's sons bastards in front of the entire court, possibly even arresting her and trying her for treason afterwards?

Or was it more supposed to be a test run for Aegon's coronation, with the Crown hearing Vaemond's clam and 'after much considerations of his arguments' coming the decision that he is the rightful heir to Driftmark, after all. That way they could have avoided any direct and open statement about Rhaenyra's sons while still strengthening Aegon's claim against Rhaenyra's.

If that had gone through they would have been convinced that they could convince Rhaenyra to back down over the issue of the royal succession.

3 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Ser Harrold Westerling appears to be still alive and Lord Commander on the show [or is this something they are going to gloss over and hope the audience forget about him]. Are they going to show he goes to Dragonstone with Darklyn or is Cole going to kill him in Ep 9? 

That would be the assumption. Both Cargylls are also still in KL, so we can assume that there will be a KG exodus to Dragonstone next episode, possibly - likely even - led by Ser Harrold. The guy was Rhaenyra's original protector back in the pilot and it seems clear that he also liked the princess. Not to mention that he is clearly shown as being stalwartly loyal to his king, Viserys I.

By the way - any idea what Lord Caswell's function could be at court? I guess we will see him being arrested next week. Could he be Harwin's successor as Lord Commander of the City Watch. Them deciding to highlight the Caswells as Black loyalists this season might be a hint we will see Bitterbridge in a later season. They could have also gone with Stokeworths, Rosbys, or Footlys there.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Also, the fact that Jace is taking such an ardent interest in learning to be a good king, despite him presumably being decades away from the throne, shows that Rhaenyra really was quite a bratty and irresponsible teenager. It wasn’t that more was expected of her because of her gender, it was just her personality.

[C.T. Phipps]

16 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The more mention is made of the boys being Strongs, the more head-scratching the decision to do so little to develop Harwin as a character is. The first half of the season really does feel like a different show from the second half.

My take on the subject was the producers wanted to get to Daemon and Rhaenyra as a power couple as quickly as possible.

They unfortunately underestimated that people would be interested in Ser Harwin AND Laenor.

[C.T. Phipps]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What do you think the Green game was there? Did Otto and Alicent really want to declare Rhaenyra's sons bastards in front of the entire court, possibly even arresting her and trying her for treason afterwards?

Yes, absolutely.

They were going to rule in Vaemond's favor and have him take the brunt of the accusation. Otto was sitting on the Iron Throne and this was going to be the moment where Rhaenyra was disinherited, her children declared bastards, and Aegon reaffirmed as the Crown's Heir.

It utterly went sideways instead.

Alicent might hesitate but Otto wouldn't.

Edited October 10, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

18 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The more mention is made of the boys being Strongs, the more head-scratching the decision to do so little to develop Harwin as a character is. The first half of the season really does feel like a different show from the second half.

I mean, the main purpose of Harwin is to show that the Strong boys aren't Laenors children. But yeah, I do think that we should have had another episode set during the 10-year time skip.

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Also, the fact that Jace is taking such an ardent interest in learning to be a good king, despite him presumably being decades away from the throne, shows that Rhaenyra really was quite a bratty and irresponsible teenager. It wasn’t that more was expected of her because of her gender, it was just her personality.

Well, Rhaenyra only was named heir at the age of 14 in the show, no? And even thereafter she didn't really think she would be queen until her father had finally decided that she wouldn't be disinherited in favor of Aegon three years later.

Rhaenyra is raised as a pampered princess, not as the Heir Apparent. And to be clear - she still isn't that eager to be the queen in episode 8. She sees the crown as a burden and, quite correctly, faults her dad for deviding the Realm by naming her the heir.

While I guess we are to believe that it is this reluctance, this view of the crown as a burden, that rouses Viserys from his apathy one last time to try to set things to right ... Rhaenyra is right that her father should have never named her.

Jace is raised from the start as the heir to the Heir Apparent, so it is always clear that he will wear the crown one day.

[Winterfell is Burning]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The more mention is made of the boys being Strongs, the more head-scratching the decision to do so little to develop Harwin as a character is. The first half of the season really does feel like a different show from the second half.

The show REALLY needed an episode between 5 and 6. This one should be the 9th.

  

51 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Also, the fact that Jace is taking such an ardent interest in learning to be a good king, despite him presumably being decades away from the throne, shows that Rhaenyra really was quite a bratty and irresponsible teenager. It wasn’t that more was expected of her because of her gender, it was just her personality.

I agree entirely. Even after she's nominated heir, she shows no interest in actually learning how to rule.

[The Bard of Banefort]

51 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I mean, the main purpose of Harwin is to show that the Strong boys aren't Laenors children. But yeah, I do think that we should have had another episode set during the 10-year time skip.

It’s more that a ton of significance has been placed on what feels like a random character due to how little screen time he had.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

32 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

The show REALLY needed an episode between 5 and 6. This one should be the 9th.

  

I agree entirely. Even after she's nominated heir, she shows no interest in actually learning how to rule.

Maybe that’s why Cole thought she would “run away” with him?

[nara]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

My take on the subject was the producers wanted to get to Daemon and Rhaenyra as a power couple as quickly as possible.

They unfortunately underestimated that people would be interested in Ser Harwin AND Laenor.

I think it’s also an HBO thing. After the GOT season 8 backlash, they couldn’t be sure that this show would find an audience.

Therefore, it was essential for the show runners to get to the action quickly in order to get the series greenlit, and the result is they moved faster than we would have liked. Sadly, we’ve lost some good characterization and storytelling in the process.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

16 minutes ago, nara said:

I think it’s also an HBO thing. After the GOT season 8 backlash, they couldn’t be sure that this show would find an audience.

Therefore, it was essential for the show runners to get to the action quickly in order to get the series greenlit, and the result is they moved faster than we would have liked. Sadly, we’ve lost some good characterization and storytelling in the process.

Initially, HBO wanted to start at the Dance, but GRRM insisted on a proper introduction for all major characters. Which is why HotD was delayed by a few years.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Also, the fact that Jace is taking such an ardent interest in learning to be a good king, despite him presumably being decades away from the throne, shows that Rhaenyra really was quite a bratty and irresponsible teenager. It wasn’t that more was expected of her because of her gender, it was just her personality.

 

1 hour ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

 

I agree entirely. Even after she's nominated heir, she shows no interest in actually learning how to rule.

Eh, in episode 2 she made a sensible suggestion to send out dragon riders against the Triarchy and she got shot down and essentially kicked out of the council room. Then later Viserys dismissed her attempt to explain when they were having dinner. She also served as cup bearer to Viserys, meaning she was there to absorb knowledge from the people leading the realm even if she didn't contribute. She diffused a dangerous situation when Otto decided to take 20 good men to challenge Daemon on Dragonstone. Oh, and Rhaenyra was also fluent in High Valyrian by that age, which is really only useful for dragon riding and treating with envoys from the Free Cities.

It's like that one irresponsible act she did by going with Daemon to Flea Bottom erased everything else. lol

 

1 hour ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

The show REALLY needed an episode between 5 and 6. This one should be the 9th.

Yes, maybe. It certainly feels that way. Or... change the ultra-violent and rushed ending of episode 5 to something else that involves Harwin doing more than punching his way through a crowd and carrying Rhaenyra like a sack of potatoes. Because I think episode 6 did do a fair job at establishing this hush-hush relationship between them and also how Laenor has generally been behaving during the skipped over years.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Corvinus85

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

It's like that one irresponsible act she did by going with Daemon to Flea Bottom erased everything else. lol

I think it's more in the first four episodes they were trying to emphasize the conflicts - both externally and internally - that young Rhaenyra was feeling in regards to the pressures of being names heir and forced into marriage.  This makes sense in the writer's room - you need to have some conflict for your main character.  I agree with your examples that contradict this - plus in later episodes we see young Rhaenyra attending small council meetings at least once - but between her brattiness and the emphasis on how pressured she felt, it's not surprising many interpret such ambivalence as disinterest. 

This would have been alleviated by more episodes spent on the time period, of course and as many have mentioned, but given the limited time I think they were right to emphasize what they did.

[lakin1013]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I mean, the main purpose of Harwin is to show that the Strong boys aren't Laenors children. But yeah, I do think that we should have had another episode set during the 10-year time skip.

I do agree with you and others making this point.  But Harwin is not entirely without his influence: genes, daily contact, intelligence, and love. Everytime I see Rhaenerya's children, I think what wonderful DNA Strong must have had.  Those boys are good looking, sturdy kids who seem to be well-adjusted.  We also have the shoulder touch and small correction to one of the boys from Harwin out in the training area, showing that Harwin was supportive with them on a daily basis, a male father figure in addition to Laenor's love of his not-his children.  The later shots show one learning high valyrian, & one learning to read.  In other words, they seem to have some intelligence. We also know when Harwin & dad went home, the parting was painful between Rh and Harwin. If Rh went shopping for a Laenor stand-in, she made a good purchase. In my opinion, for a under-developed character, he left a very positive mark.

[Ingelheim]

We've seen just one episode with these new actors but I feel like this is the best casting for a show that I have seen in a while. Ewan Mitchell as Aemond is just perfect. He exudes insanity and violence.

 

[sifth]

 

Daemon chopping off Vaemond's head, reminded me of Matt Smiths deleted scene from In Bruges.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

We've seen just one episode with these new actors but I feel like this is the best casting for a show that I have seen in a while. Ewan Mitchell as Aemond is just perfect. He exudes insanity and violence.

 

And cowardice.  He waited for his father to be removed and seconds later offered his insult.  He’s a bully.

[Ingelheim]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

And cowardice.  He waited for his father to be removed and seconds later offered his insult.  He’s a bully.

Well I think he only got angry after he saw how Luke was laughing at him because of the whole pig situation. Untill that moment he had kept his mouth shut.