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[Spoilers] Episode 108 Discussion


Ran
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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

From what we see in the preview for next week, there is certainly plenty of potential for Daeron to be namedropped.

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Also really great to see Aegon quite literally running away from what seems to be the throne and his 'responsibilities'.

I must say Aegon is one of my favorite characters so far. Really hope they keep both him getting drunk on power and him ignoring most of the 'sage advice' of his elders as well as him. There is potential for him stabbing back at all the people who thought they could use him as their pawn, his mother and grandfather foremost among them.

Also, I really want them to keep all his ridiculous decisions - executing all the ratcatchers in KL (not that this would make a different in the rat-invested castle), him being unable to react to the blockade of the Blackwater Bay, him deciding to build the silly statues of his dead brothers.

Also, great buildup for Lyman's Last Stand this episode, when he insisted that the Driftmark issue was settled. Not sure if it is so much loyalty as much as senile stubbornness ... but I'm sure the guy will get his brief moment in the sun.

I guess the Greens will be really confused by the resistance the old man is going to offer in light of that he usually only offers longwinded tax speeches and/or cannot follow other conversations due to what seems to be hearing loss.

Yes can’t wait to see Beesbury’s defiance and speech. He should call them all treasonous traitors. I suspect the old man is going to have a huge fan following after the next episode.

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20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You should also keep in mind that the age of Aegon the Younger and Viserys in this episode means - necessitates, even - that the Dance has to last longer in the show than it does in the books. It must last more than 2+ years, possibly as many as five. Joffrey is also too young to play the role he does later in the war.

Yeah, I mentioned this last night, but it seems pretty clear that the Dance must take place over a considerably longer period than it actually did if Joffrey, Aegon the Younger and Viserys are going to in any way play the roles they did in the books.  In which case, it's entirely possible Maelor is born in Season 2.

14 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Ty Tennant and Tom Glynn-Carney also played the same character in the Tolkien movie.

Huh.  That's interesting.

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26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Helaena could give birth to Maelor shortly before the fall of KL. Just because she has a breakdown doesn't mean she cannot give birth. You could easily see Aegon getting drunk during that party he throws for Aemond after the murder of Luke, and subsequently impregnating Helaena.

I think they could easily cut Maelor, to be sure, but it isn't something they have to do. He isn't really a character, more a plot point or plot device. All they basically need is a baby or toddler for a couple of scenes.

You should also keep in mind that the age of Aegon the Younger and Viserys in this episode means - necessitates, even - that the Dance has to last longer in the show than it does in the books. It must last more than 2+ years, possibly as many as five. Joffrey is also too young to play the role he does later in the war.

Alicent steps up and grows into her role only during the ten year gap. Before that, she is neither comfortable in the role nor particularly effective. Which is kind of weird in itself since Alicent should have been groomed for the role a queen consort ... which isn't that different from the role of lady wife.

Aegon was told that he would be king one day only by his mother. But the important, crucial voice there is the voice of his father. I mean, we can imagine that young Aegon summoned his courage one day and approached his father in a quiet moment, telling him that his mother kept telling him he would be king one day. He would ask whether this was true, whether his father really believe he should and would be king one day. You can imagine what Viserys would have answered. In fact, we should have gotten such a scene between, say, a 5-7-year-old Aegon and Viserys.

That is a good question. I guesstimate a possible answer would be that Corlys spent the last six years fighting on the Stepstones, and didn't want to take Luke into a war zone. Taking in Baela was Rhaenys' decision.

The leaked reports said that

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Daeron will be mentioned by Otto and Aemond, respectively, as being in Oldtown.

If that doesn't happen in the next episode chances are good that this is false information and he has been cut. But there was no need for them to mention him so far. They could have, of course, but there was no quiet scene between characters who would care about Daeron or who discussed things that would warrant him being mentioned.

Next episode the Greens will marshal their strength, they will write to the Hightowers in Oldtown, they will count their dragons, Daeron would be informed about the death of his father, etc. That's the moment to namedrop him, if he is still there, and also to reveal whether Otto's brother is still the Lord of Oldtown, or whether Otto's nephew Ormund is already in charge (as he should be per the book).

In any case, the way they shot things, Daeron doesn't have to be there. In the book they sent him to Oldtown as a squire only in the 120s, but in the show he could easily be a ward of the Hightowers from a younger age. He would be born during the ten year gap and sent to Oldtown years before episode 6 begins.

In the book, Daeron isn't in KL during Aegon's coronation. He is sent to Oldtown years before his father's death and never returns to court, actually, eventually dying at Tumbleton.

I disagree about Alicent. She was already handling herself well in EP3. 

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11 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah, I mentioned this last night, but it seems pretty clear that the Dance must take place over a considerably longer period than it actually did if Joffrey, Aegon the Younger and Viserys are going to in any way play the roles they did in the books.  In which case, it's entirely possible Maelor is born in Season 2.

If we were not talking Aegon III here, there would be a chance that they could move, say, the Stormcloud episode with the daring escape and the dying dragon to Joffrey and Tyraxes ... but we do talk about Aegon III here. He is such a crucial character to the whole setting that they cannot really mess with him or his development.

Or at least I think they should not do that. Even if they did ... they cannot really downplay or not develop/buildup Aegon III for his role in the final chapter of the war. That would be really bad form.

And doing that means Aegon has to grow older very fast and they have to cast a decent enough child actor for at least season 3.

In fact, thinking about things, both Aegon and Viserys are perhaps the crucial reason why they might not, in fact, get to the Gullet and the fall of KL in season 2. Because there is no way toddlers can play the roles of Aegon and Viserys on the ship and the story thereafter.

Better to move events around somewhat then, and close season 2 with Rook's Rest.

If they focus on Reach stuff, Riverlands stuff, Westerlands and Ironborn stuff in season 2 as well as assassination plots and alliance-making then the season will be pretty cramped, anyway. The dragonseeds could also be introduced gradually rather than all at once.

By the way - Rhaena's hunger for a dragon causes the very real problem - which is completely glossed over in the book - that nobody offers her any of the riderless dragons on Dragonstone. Sure enough somebody should have told her to mount Seasmoke or Silverwing or Vermithor before asking everybody and their grandmother to try.

This makes one wonder whether she will claim one of the riderless dragons only to have Morning at the very end after her dragon dies ... or by reversing things so that Baela hatches another dragon after Moondancer's death.

27 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I disagree about Alicent. She was already handling herself well in EP3. 

Only as a wife, not really as queen. She is just there being nice, having no agenda or agency of her own. After 2+ years as queen she should have grown more into her role, which includes presiding over all court events as the mother of the kingdom, basically, taking her share in the running of the royal household, not to mention very much enjoying everything that comes with being the first woman in Westeros, the one everybody must kneel to.

Instead we have her defending Rhaenyra when talking to the ladies at the hunt ... but not offer any (political) opinion of her own.

Alicent should also have been at the center of everybody's attention, especially at the royal hunt Otto's brother threw for 'the Conqueror-Babe' - she was the mother of Viserys' son, beating the king's beloved first wife in the first attempt. That should have made Alicent the darling of the Realm. Instead, pretty much nobody seems to even look into her direction.

It is even worse the next episode where Alicent is depicted as being miserable as queen and missing the time she still had friends - when her role as queen should helped her gain more friends than Lady Alicent Hightower could ever hope to have.

It would have made for her to miss the more carefree days of her youth with Rhaenyra, but not so much the friends they didn't seem to have, anyway, when they were younger girls.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If we were not talking Aegon III here, there would be a chance that they could move, say, the Stormcloud episode with the daring escape and the dying dragon to Joffrey and Tyraxes ... but we do talk about Aegon III here. He is such a crucial character to the whole setting that they cannot really mess with him or his development.

Or at least I think they should not do that. Even if they did ... they cannot really downplay or not develop/buildup Aegon III for his role in the final chapter of the war. That would be really bad form.

And doing that means Aegon has to grow older very fast and they have to cast a decent enough child actor for at least season 3.

In fact, thinking about things, both Aegon and Viserys are perhaps the crucial reason why they might not, in fact, get to the Gullet and the fall of KL in season 2. Because there is no way toddlers can play the roles of Aegon and Viserys on the ship and the story thereafter.

Better to move events around somewhat then, and close season 2 with Rook's Rest.

If they focus on Reach stuff, Riverlands stuff, Westerlands and Ironborn stuff in season 2 as well as assassination plots and alliance-making then the season will be pretty cramped, anyway. The dragonseeds could also be introduced gradually rather than all at once.

By the way - Rhaena's hunger for a dragon causes the very real problem - which is completely glossed over in the book - that nobody offers her any of the riderless dragons on Dragonstone. Sure enough somebody should have told her to mount Seasmoke or Silverwing or Vermithor before asking everybody and their grandmother to try.

This makes one wonder whether she will claim one of the riderless dragons only to have Morning at the very end after her dragon dies ... or by reversing things so that Baela hatches another dragon after Moondancer's death.

Only as a wife, not really as queen. She is just there being nice, having no agenda or agency of her own. After 2+ years as queen she should have grown more into her role, which includes presiding over all court events as the mother of the kingdom, basically, taking her share in the running of the royal household, not to mention very much enjoying everything that comes with being the first woman in Westeros, the one everybody must kneel to.

Instead we have her defending Rhaenyra when talking to the ladies at the hunt ... but not offer any (political) opinion of her own.

Alicent should also have been at the center of everybody's attention, especially at the royal hunt Otto's brother threw for 'the Conqueror-Babe' - she was the mother of Viserys' son, beating the king's beloved first wife in the first attempt. That should have made Alicent the darling of the Realm. Instead, pretty much nobody seems to even look into her direction.

It is even worse the next episode where Alicent is depicted as being miserable as queen and missing the time she still had friends - when her role as queen should helped her gain more friends than Lady Alicent Hightower could ever hope to have.

It would have made for her to miss the more carefree days of her youth with Rhaenyra, but not so much the friends they didn't seem to have, anyway, when they were younger girls.

She convinced Viserys to send aid to the Stepstones. I’d call that agency.

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2 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

She convinced Viserys to send aid to the Stepstones. I’d call that agency.

Okay, yes, but that is basically the role of wife, i.e. the role of an advisor in the home sphere. She should be more than that at that point.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Confirmation that Helaena and Aegon only have two kids. The evidence that Daeron has been cut is also growing.

https://www.hbo.com/house-of-the-dragon/character-guide

If they do cut Daeron, I wonder if they’ll also cut Addam of Hull (they could still introduce Alyn later on as Vaemond’s son). In this case, both Aemond and Jace would have meatier roles. Aemond would be leading armies instead of burning peasants for most of the war, and Jace could be the one to confront Ulf and Hugh at Tumbleton. It would still have the thematic resonance of an honorable bastard, given that Jace already knows Harwin is his father.

Cutting Maelor is probably a good idea. He really only exists so that we can have the line “a son for a son” and to die a gruesome death not unlike Joffrey’s. All they have to do is change it to “a child for a child.”

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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23 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Well, that was quite the snoozer. Not without its charms though.

This may have been the first episode where I kind of liked Daemon, which was an accomplishment on its own. The passion seems to have largely gone out of his relationship with Rhaenyra already, which is fitting, I think. I'm glad there are consequences for Laenor's grand escape. Rhaenys believes they killed him, and she should. Rhaenyra's selfishness is finally catching up with her.

Corlys has been at war in the Stepstones for six years? And this is after he and Rhaenys lost both of their children in a weekend? Guess he's not a great husband after all.

Aemond looks like Daemon's mini me, right down to the nasally, high-pitched voice. They seem to be characterizing him as both a shit-stirrer and a dutiful son--I thought it was telling how he was the other one aside from Alicent who remained solemn during the prayer before dinner. (I think he was also telling Aegon that he drinks too much at one point). That said, he really does look like a forty-year-old man, to the point where it's comical.

Aegon remains the closest thing this show has to comedic relief. That said, by turning him into a rapist (and not in the she-likes-me-but-she-also-can't-say-no way, but in the I-physically-overpowered-her-and-left-her-in-hysterics way), especially with what looks like a teenage girl, the writers have assured that he will be seen as a villain forevermore. It's also a shame that he's lost whatever goodwill he had towards his nephews.

 

 

I absolutely agree with a lot of this. A lot of these problems are the show's usual ones, due to yet another time-skip, the mountains of awkward exposition it's forced to then deliver to catch everyone up, and to recast every character. Aemond's actor has potential, but yes, he looks so out of place and also twenty years older than all the other kids.

I also really, really disliked the choice to make Aegon a rapist. Why would you take the only fun character on the show and turn him into a completely unsympathetic villain? I get that he's going to be a villain sooner or later, but come on; let there be just one fun character in this show, writers.

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I chuckled when the pig was placed in front of Aemond.  Also, the server was on Aemond’s blind side when he placed it down.  Also, Aemond is the opposite of Viserys.  The king has no left eye, Aemond has no right eye.  They also have completely opposite dispositions.  Aemond is quick to anger and take action.  He also had a desire to have a dragon.  Viserys rode Balerion and after that, had no desire to claim another dragon. He also doesn’t easily show his anger, and only takes action when it is necessary. They are almost portrayed (in the show) as Yin and Yang.  Two sides of the same coin.

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I really enjoyed this episode, and think the last 3 episodes have really started to build up well.   Of course, I'm horribly biased, as I probably would enjoy any series even loosely based on George's world.   I am greatly concerned that for non-book readers, the show just isn't quite hitting the mark.   It was always going to be tough for Condral to get this to be as good as Game of Thrones, and while the acting and direction have been superb, I can see how this might not be connecting with those who are not as immersed in the books as most of us are.  I understand the decision behind the time jumps; but, I think many of the things that should have bigger impacts (the Strongs burning at Harrenhal, Laena and Laenor's deaths) just aren't quite working - the characters just haven't been 'present' enough for people to care about/make those impacts.   I kind of wonder if just adding 2 more episodes (12 instead of 10) might have allowed for a little more time for Harwin, Laena and Laenor, and really improved things.  I understand that budget limitations wouldn't allow that.  But, on that note, I also wonder if they are making the right decisions on how to spend that budget.  For instance, I'm not sure the way they've utilized the dragons has been optimal (though not sure I can suggest a better alternative).  I think for non-readers, things have not been made very clear:  many didn't realize Harwin was in earlier episodes, it wasn't clear Laenor was riding Seasmoke, or even that Seasmoke was a different dragon, and I don't think most know who is a dragonrider and who is not.   I think in some ways, they've hit the audience over the head with certain things (the realm won't accept a woman on the Iron Throne); while not making others clear (again Harwin, dragon-riders, or, Arryk and Erryk being twins - though they may still rectify that).   Arryk/Erryk are 1 area where changing a name or two from the books (Beric, Derrick?) would probably have been helpful for non-readers.  

Anyway...I'm enjoying it; but, I am still a little concerned about if this is coming close to meeting expectations for non die-hards  who don't have in depth knowledge/background of the characters like we do.  

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7 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Aegon married his sister, Haelena. Which is why her little dinner speech was such a burn and the camera partially focused on him. The servant girl was fired, paid off to keep quiet, and given moon tea to ensure she wasn't going to have a baby.

Oooooooh! Well I never… this is what you get with the compulsive recasting. That character didn’t need to be recast either. 

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7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Why wasn’t Luke fostered with Corlys at Driftmark? He should have been, considering that was to be his seat.

The heir to a house being fostered in the house of their liegelord, in this case Dragonstone, isn't that unusual. Vaemond's assertion that growing up in a place as being important to the succession is kinda silly.

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7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Why wasn’t Luke fostered with Corlys at Driftmark? He should have been, considering that was to be his seat.

Was he ever in the books?

Anyway, in this case Corlys isn't home and Rhaenys clearly dislikes him. Going ot Driftmark will do him no favors.

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10 minutes ago, frenin said:

Was he ever in the books?

No. In the books, though, the idea of Luke inheriting is a new one when Corlys gets ill. It was never especially examined and was I guess just assumed that Jace would succeed, but when Corlys fell ill Rhaenyra urged Luke instead because Jace would sit the Iron Throne and all.

Edited by Ran
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The show will miss Paddy Considine. 

Similar to losing Addy and Bean in season one of Thrones - The rest of the cast were still mostly great but their charm was never quite replicated.

I would say he’s up there with Charles Dance and Lena Headey in term of just making the character his own. Someone I was just indifferent to in F&B and they turned him into such a compelling, tragic figure. Great work by all involved but Considine especially.

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

To be clear, I don't like the 'romantic couple' interpretation of Daemon-Nettles. I think this works better as them being father and daughter or otherwise close relations. (For the show I think it could be great to have Nettles as a natural daughter of Viserys whose mother Alicent destroyed in in ten year gap. His great affection for the girl could be very intriguing due to his close relationship to Viserys.)

 

Heh...not really. First of all, the relationship between the two of them is clearly sexual- no way Daemon would be barely be with his own family to just "hang out" with a girl he is not sleeping around with, just out of "paternal love".

Your stuff about Alicent murdering her mother makes even less sense than that. Viserys clearly is not having affairs in the show, not just for lack of interest, but also lack of physical capacity, and nothing indicates Alicent would be capable of just murder someone for pure jealousy- at least at this point of the show.

 

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1 hour ago, TeethGrinder said:

The show will miss Paddy Considine. 

Similar to losing Addy and Bean in season one of Thrones - The rest of the cast were still mostly great but their charm was never quite replicated.

I would say he’s up there with Charles Dance and Lena Headey in term of just making the character his own. Someone I was just indifferent to in F&B and they turned him into such a compelling, tragic figure. Great work by all involved but Considine especially.

Indeed, both Robert, Ned, Tywin  and Viserys are merely plot devices for the civil war to start or develop.

Ned's a POV so he didn't quite needed it but the other three actors did give their characters new life.

 

 

3 hours ago, Ran said:

No. In the books, though, the idea of Luke inheriting is a new one when Corlys gets ill. It was never especially examined and was I guess just assumed that Jace would succeed, but when Corlys fell ill Rhaenyra urged Luke instead because Jace would sit the Iron Throne and all.

So Jace was supposed to inherit every seat like Robert? Maybe from this division between brothers is where Stannis got the idea that he should get Storm's End once Robert took the throne. Funny given his stance of his grandma.

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I liked this episode, our standard gripes (Vaemond acting dumb, needless violence from Daemon in court, Lord Commander of the Kings Guard Ser Criston Cole mortally endangering a child of the monarch in the training grounds, no mention of dragons) notwithstanding. 

But, ah!, how much better this series would be if, for instance, we’d care about Vaemond. Or we’d see the Sea Snake getting wounded. Everything in HotD feels cramped. Why not – like many other tv shows, including GOT – have multiple plot arcs with different characters in different locations doing interesting stuff, such as having Vaemond and Corlys fight in the Stepstones for an episode of two?

“Secondary character has exciting adventures in a natural environment” is Screenwriting 101; there should be tons of tropes that a moderately skilled author can take off the shelf. Why is this not available to HotD? I find this really baffling. It’s as if the showrunners have decided to eschew writing satisfying TV even when the option presents itself. Corlys is one of the coolest characters in the fictional universe – he has travelled the world! – but we never see that. The Velaryons are master captains, but we never see it. They partake in visually appealing stuff that would be really exciting; but we are told, not shown. I find it weird. Where does the money go?

(Just like “give Deamon cool dialogue,” which they also decide to never do. Well,  I understand their decision to never have white male characters be cool, so maybe it’s that. But this does not apply to Corlys; the showrunners could have made him do Exciting Hero Stuff without violating their ideological score card.)

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