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[Spoilers] Episode 108 Discussion


Ran
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6 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

What I'm wondering is where they will end things, given that the story kind of just goes on and on. What will the series finale be?

It needs to end with Viserys and Aegon reuniting. They can do a time-skip or simply move that event up if they want to. But anything else would just be too depressing I think. 

Edited by Tha_Prince_Ali
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5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

What I'm wondering is where they will end things, given that the story kind of just goes on and on. What will the series finale be?

Agreed, it's tough to find a satisfying end point.  I hope they do the Hour of the Wolf, personally.  Maybe do some flash forwards in the back half of the series finale setting up the regency and even showing Viserys' return (if they keep his story as is, which as discussed, I wouldn't be surprised nor complain about them changing).

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Just now, Tha_Prince_Ali said:

It needs to end with Misery's and Aegon reuniting. They can do a time-skip or simply move that event up if they want to. But anything else would just be too depressing I think. 

Personally, I would end it with Aegon III being crowned and the regency being formed, but that's just me.

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1 minute ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Again, makes no sense for Daemon to be abandoning his family to spend most of his time with this commoner girl out of "paternal feelings" when he barely has all that much of those about his own children to begin with. And I don't know about book Viserys, but show Viserys is clearly way too sick to be having affairs and showed no inclination to that even when he was in better health.

Not at the time we are talking about. Viserys slept with Alicent shortly before the ten year gap, and he did father Daeron during that gap, too.

In the book, Daemon first abandons his wife Rhaenyra for Mysaria and then, allegedly, Mysaria for Nettles. He seems to be pretty much done with his family when he leaves KL, else he wouldn't have abandoned them for good when he did.

And the idea that he was 'in love' with Nettles is very weird considering he abandons her, too. Why didn't he run away with her? Or defend against Rhaenyra and Mysaria? Or included her into a plan to lure Aemond into a trap at Harrenhal?

8 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I feel like people want Nettles to be Daemon’s daughter because they don’t want to admit that he’s the type of person who would abandon the wife he groomed from childhood to shack up with another child. It makes you feel terrible for Rhaenyra, but that’s who Daemon is.

I've no problem with that ... more with him ending up abandoning this girl for a silly murder-suicide death. Which really makes no sense if the guy loved the woman so much that he abandoned both his (somewhat stout) niece-wife, his years-long mistress he apparently still desired in older age, his son, and his two daughters ... as well as all the power that came with being Rhaenyra's consort.

12 minutes ago, DMC said:

On first reading that quote I assumed he was counting season 1, and thus four seasons total.  But reading it again, you could be right, maybe he meant four seasons after season 1, and thus five total?  I think the latter is pushing it a bit, considering where they're already at - unless as you mentioned they spend a good chunk of the final season on the denouement/regency.

Since he talks Dance there, I'd interpret it as four seasons for the war. That could also mean they include some Regency material stuff, possibly having a number of time jumps in the last couple of episodes. They cannot really drop or ignore the Viserys plot, and it might even make sense to include Jaehaera's death and Daenaera becoming queen.

Just 30 episodes for the entire war + whatever Regency stuff there will be, is going to be very cramped on a personal level as well as them being forced to cut or depict multiple campaigns only as stories or reports they discuss. The story has to unfold, and we have to get to know some of the characters who fight for the two factions.

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Everyone online is gushing over Daemon. And that is predictable because the show frames him as a hero. All his crimes are glibly condemned with an lol/eye roll and then we just move on with no consequences. We see Daemon threaten his dead wife's family and nothing, it's all just a big joke.  

Meanwhile we see the horror of Aegon’s by being with his rape victim and seeing her tears. We are made to fear Aemond in how his cold passiveness and resentment leaves no room for a badass posture. 

They couldn't just have Daemon unlawfully murder Vaemond. They needed Vaemond to call Rhaenyra a whore so the audience knows its okay. Just like how they turned his wife into a venomous bitch spewing profanities at him so that when Daemon went through with it the audience could just be like, "lol, Daemon is so toxic." 

We don't see her crying or desperate like Aegon's victim. The one person he might have killed who people were even partly invested in, Leanor, is let off the hook. 

Blood and Cheese will probably be hired by Larys in this version to further control Alicent. Daemon is too pure hearted for that stuff. They couldn't show Rhaenyra having an ounce of evil in her heart. They couldn't do it with Corlys. They couldn't do it with any of Rhaenyra's children either. 

They just needed to show Daemon be the bad guy so things are a little balanced, but nope. All the Greens are awful human beings and all the Blacks are epic heroes. Just like Martin didn't want.  

People celebrating this adaption need to get that. 

Edited by butterweedstrover
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16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Just 30 episodes for the entire war + whatever Regency stuff there will be, is going to be very cramped on a personal level as well as them being forced to cut or depict multiple campaigns only as stories or reports they discuss. The story has to unfold, and we have to get to know some of the characters who fight for the two factions.

I understand this impulse.  I, like most here I think, would have liked at least 2-3 more episodes for this season.  But you have to balance that with the general audience and - as Martin mentioned in his post - make sure things aren't "too slow."  In that respect, I think 30 more episodes/four total seasons is just right.

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11 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

They just needed show Daemon be the bad guy so things are a little balanced, but nope. All the Greens are awful human beings and all the Blacks are epic heroes. Just like Martin didn't want. 

Did you read his post today?  Martin sounds very satisfied with how the show is going thus far.

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4 minutes ago, DMC said:

Did you read his post today?  Martin sounds very satisfied with how the show is going thus far.

Oh I’m sure he is very happy with acclaim and bolstering of his image/visibility. 
 

He might even, quite seriously, think the show gives a nuanced approach and doesn’t glamorize the evil of one side while condemning that of the other. 
 

I am just here to point out what the show is doing and how that goes against Martin’s own vision for the story.

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2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

He might even, quite seriously, think the show gives a nuanced approach and doesn’t glamorize the evil of one side while condemning that of the other. 

Mayhaps he thinks that because it doesn't.  Daemon's crimes are not "excused" for the viewer.  They may be excused in-universe of course, but then again, so was Cole's.  Which was much more flagrant than anything Daemon has done.  I also don't know how you can watch Episode 8 and not think Aemond is being depicted as a badass.  If Larys does indeed hire Blood and Cheese, then you'll have an argument.

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40 minutes ago, DMC said:

Mayhaps he thinks that because it doesn't.  Daemon's crimes are not "excused" for the viewer. 

Given how much people online are gushing over him I'd say, regardless of intent, that is the outcome. But again, he is a badass fighting for the right side and only every commits atrocities when they are well deserved (FYI: I don't think any of them were well deserved, just that the show wants us to think they are.)

40 minutes ago, DMC said:

They may be excused in-universe of course, but then again, so was Cole's. 

Cole ceased being a character a long time ago. 

40 minutes ago, DMC said:

 Aemond is being depicted as a badass.   

He is being depicted as an asshole. There is a difference. They might have made him be Aegon's loyal defender like Daemon has been to Viserys, but instead he is just this a menacing bully in it for no reason at all while lacking swagger. 

40 minutes ago, DMC said:

If Larys does indeed hire Blood and Cheese, then you'll have an argument.

But really, everything I said was true. This post amounts to a "no it's not" which isn't a compelling counter-argument. 

Daemon's crimes are justified by the language of his victims and the lack of consequences making the whole thing feel like a light hearted joke. Meanwhile the Greens have their crimes depicted as horrific, and no laughing matter. 

Removing any culpability for Rhaenyra is one thing. But making Daemon into a hero is just too much. 

Edited by butterweedstrover
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3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Given how much people online are gushing over him I'd say, regardless of intent, that is the outcome. But again, he is a badass fighting for the right side and only every commits atrocities when they are well deserved

Killing Rhea certainly wasn't "well deserved."  Nor snapping a dude's neck to fake Laenor's death.  Nor skulking at Dragonstone in Episode 2 like an impetuous child.  Obviously all viewers have their own interpretations, but "people online gushing over him" doesn't mean anything.  You can find evidence of people saying literally any manner of things about any popular television show online.

6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

He is being depicted as an asshole. There is a difference.

He's explicitly being depicted as Daemon 2.0.  Which he should be.

6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

But really, everything I said was true. This post amounts to a "no it's not" which isn't a compelling counter-argument. 

LOL.  It takes a special type of delusion to pretend your blatantly biased interpretations are "true."

9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Meanwhile the Greens have their crimes depicted as horrific, and no laughing matter.

Other than Cole's (which I agree, was way over the top), what crimes have been depicted as horrific?  Aegon raping a girl?  Well, we also see Viserys rape Alicent...which is why Alicent is so disgusted herself.  Is Alicent's disgust supposed to demonize the greens?  Isn't Alicent the matriarch of the greens?

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

Sapochnik and Condal have a tenative 4 season plan for the whole show. In fact I think they may have floated three as well? But four seems more certain.

Five seasons total, I find that one tougher to wrap my head around.

Found the quote:

Quote

Sources say the show’s civil war arc might be shorter than you might expect. While nothing is carved in stone, the current Targaryen storyline is currently plotted to run only about three or four seasons.

So if Hibberd is not misunderstanding and they're saying "three or four additional seasons" -- and I'm pretty sure they've repeated 3-4 elsewhere as a total number -- then George is talking about 4 seasons... or alternatively, he's revealing his opinion that it would take 5 in total, not 4. Maybe? I'm sure he's spent more time thinking about it than I have, but in any case, I definitely think 3 total is too short and 4 seems just right, but could be convinced that 5 might be better.

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29 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said:

I’m seeing a lot of people liking/rooting for Aemond so you may get the balance you ask for soon enough.

I agree. I like Aemond. I think the show has portrayed him very favourably so I’m not really sure what the argument is haha. 
 

also people are gushing over Daemon cos he’s proper fit. Not everything is so deep :lol: he’s done plenty of awful things in show and I’m sure he’ll do plenty more evil things later on. 
 

i definitely agree that it seems the show is much more Team Black than Team Green but I don’t think it’s quite so unbalanced as the poster up thread would suggest. 

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