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[Spoilers] Episode 108 Discussion


Ran
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3 hours ago, Ran said:

It seems to me that with their little stone ball mechanism to show their attendance, the fact that he doesn't sit and doesn't have a place to sit or mark his own attendance is pretty strongly suggestive that the Lord Commander is not, in fact, part of the small council on the show.

Oh sure it certainly seems to be a pretty safe assumption.  I was just wondering if it was ever actually stated in HotD and I missed/forgot it.

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Rewatching the episode I realized that Aegon seems to be visibly relieved when his father decrees that Driftmark shall go to Luke. I take it that's a further hint that Aegon has no ambition to be king at all ... nor any particular issues with his half-sister or nephews. Instead he seems to be happy that this cup is apparently passing from him.

His later behavior towards Jace also seems to be more like him being an asshole teasing his nephew (and possibly secretly being jealous that Jace got Baela for a bride while he is stuck with Helaena the weirdo) than an expression of real enmity.

Thinking more about Alicent's change of mind, I think the episode provides us with sufficient buildup for her honest reconciliation with Rhaenyra:

- Her seeing the old scar on Rhaenyra's arm bringing back memories of her going way too far.

- Her great disappointment over Aegon's behavior and her conclusion that this wastrel is neither worthy nor capable of being a proper king. Rhaenyra is not going to rape serving girls or boys. Rhaenyra is also capable of properly ruling the Realm and wouldn't need advisers or guardians telling her what to do.

- The doubts she expresses to Vaemond and Otto during their meeting in the council chamber.

- Viserys' final decision for Rhaenyra and her children.

- Rhaenyra's honest toast on her during the dinner.

Otto may not really self-delude himself into buying his crap that they are doing all this for the good of the Realm and whatnot. But Alicent seems to buy this stuff, seems to need the belief that she is doing her duty rather than acting in her own interest. And there she don't seem to be able to bring herself to think that Aegon would be a proper king.

Now, when Viserys seems to change his mind on the issue of the succession it turns things around again - even more so when he subsequently dies and this would be the literal expression of his last will.

But in context I think we can expect Alicent dreading the moment a King Aegon II is actually going to rule - or think to rule - in his own right. Because she must know that she won't get away with slapping or abusing a crowned and anointed king.

This is basically why I really like Aegon in this show, and hope they give him time to shine in all his shithead and incompetent glory before Rook's Rest turns him into the poppy-addled cripple who will be as much at Alicent's mercy as was his father in his later years. There is really great potential there to show a character drunk on absolute power he both never desired and was never properly prepared for.

Also, it will make for great entertainment to see those schemers who created King Aegon II to be not just be disappointed by the king they made, but also pretty much unable to properly control him.

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Did anyone else notice Aemond disappear during the dinner? Did he just go take a leak or was it a cut scene? Odd timing either way since he was ready for drama. He's gone from the table shortly after Jace and Helaena start dancing and is returning from a side hallway when Viserys is being carried out. I wonder if he requested the pig hoping to start shit.

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35 minutes ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

Did anyone else notice Aemond disappear during the dinner? Did he just go take a leak or was it a cut scene? Odd timing either way since he was ready for drama. He's gone from the table shortly after Jace and Helaena start dancing and is returning from a side hallway when Viserys is being carried out. I wonder if he requested the pig hoping to start shit.

Don't know about Aemond, but the leaked reports claimed they had the fake praises of both Daemon and Otto in there, so some material may have been cut. It is quite odd that neither of them actually says anything during the entire dinner scene.

On rewatching things I must say Jace and Luke behave childish and immature during the Strong toast. The way to deal with that would have been to own it, thanking Uncle Aemond for acknowledging their strength, not throwing a tantrum as if they were little children.

If Jace is supposed to come across as competent and well-mannered and mature at least he should have behaved more like a grown-up.

Also liked Aegon finally reacting positive to Jace's toast. The guy really doesn't have any serious issues with his nephews.

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4 hours ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

Did anyone else notice Aemond disappear during the dinner? Did he just go take a leak or was it a cut scene? Odd timing either way since he was ready for drama. He's gone from the table shortly after Jace and Helaena start dancing and is returning from a side hallway when Viserys is being carried out. I wonder if he requested the pig hoping to start shit.

He is still in the scene when Jace and Halaena dance. You can spot him a few times sitting in the same position. But yeah, when Viserys leaves, he's missing and Otto seemed to have leaned over to draw his chair to the table. Then Aemond appears from behind a corner right as Viserys is already away from the table. The pig is brought in through the main door.

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On 10/14/2022 at 3:22 PM, DMC said:

I think somebody mentioned this earlier, but I suspect he takes Steffon Darklyn's role - absconding with Viserys' crown and spiriting away to Dragonstone in the night.  It's expedient to use an already introduced Kingsguard member for the role.  I suppose Cole not being the Lord Commander does technically complicate the Green Council scene, but I suspect they'll just write it off as him being Alicent's protector - if they mention it at all.

(I realize I’m pages behind, so if anyone has already suggested this, apologies and I’m glad someone else thought of it too. I’m on your channel.)

Or… Lord Commander Harrold Westerling could be killed by Ser Cristin Cole because Westerling is obligated to support the actual succession ordered by King Viserys. Cole believes otherwise having been told by Queen Alicent of the King’s final words they both misinterpret (or the thought of Rhaenyra being Queen sends him into a blind rage… and there are no witnesses…) Alicent makes sure Cole is the new Lord Commander.

It will be interesting no matter how it happens.

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14 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I believe Graham McTavish will be in season 2, so any duels he fights now or in the finale will not mark his end. I think Westerling is the one to take the crown to Rhaenyra, and Aegon II will name Cole as his LC as a result. Then Cole will take military command as per the book.

As to Arryk and Erryk, I'm not sure how things will develop. The trailer for the upcoming episode does suggest some focus on them, probably to give the audience a clear view of them and set them for the future plot, but it also suggests a scheme that involves both.

Oh I hope so, and like this very much! More McTavish! Yes, please!

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Rewatching the Dinner scene, it is obvious how much Alicent's children are the ones instigating conflict. 

It would have been a great story if two rivals who reconcile have their hatred live on through their children in the most unfortunate of ways. 

But they didn't write a rivalry, they wrote a one-sided hate fest on the side of Alicent that is totally illogical while Rhaenyra just ignored the blows and kept acting pleasant. 

So now with the children, the Strong boys are only defusing tensions whilst Aemond and Aegon are just riling them up. And there is no Daeron to balance the equation. So it's not really that their children are dooming them to war, it's that Alicent's children were taught to hate their counterparts and can't let go. 

And the hatred that was imbued to them by Alicent is so stupid and pointless that it turns the potential for an otherwise brilliant scene into just more Green bashing (made more obvious by how sweet innocent Helena is shown in a positive light by mocking her brother and gleefully dancing with Jace). 

And to make matters even more insufferable, after everything Alicent has done, Rhaenyra is the one to apologize first. She has nothing to apologize for yet this woman is so pure of heart, like literally Jesus himself, that she suffers the burden of once again turning the other cheek and giving Alicent even more opportunity to let go of her (unjustified) vendetta and make peace.  

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4 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Rewatching the Dinner scene, it is obvious how much Alicent's children are the ones instigating conflict. 

As it should be. The Green princes are envious of their nephews, while Rhaenyra's sons can bask in the glory that comes with being the children of the Heir Apparent and the favorites of King Viserys I himself.

Remember, in the book Viserys had great fun taking Jace up on the Iron Throne, telling him how he would be king one day.

These people have no reason to be jealous of their pitiful uncles. The king is favoring them. It was a stretch to present them as self-conscious because of their non-Valyrian looks. They should be so sure of themselves that they completely ignore talk like that. Because it doesn't matter.

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5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Rewatching the Dinner scene, it is obvious how much Alicent's children are the ones instigating conflict. 

It would have been a great story if two rivals who reconcile have their hatred live on through their children in the most unfortunate of ways. 

But they didn't write a rivalry, they wrote a one-sided hate fest on the side of Alicent that is totally illogical while Rhaenyra just ignored the blows and kept acting pleasant. 

So now with the children, the Strong boys are only defusing tensions whilst Aemond and Aegon are just riling them up. And there is no Daeron to balance the equation. So it's not really that their children are dooming them to war, it's that Alicent's children were taught to hate their counterparts and can't let go. 

And the hatred that was imbued to them by Alicent is so stupid and pointless that it turns the potential for an otherwise brilliant scene into just more Green bashing (made more obvious by how sweet innocent Helena is shown in a positive light by mocking her brother and gleefully dancing with Jace). 

And to make matters even more insufferable, after everything Alicent has done, Rhaenyra is the one to apologize first. She has nothing to apologize for yet this woman is so pure of heart, like literally Jesus himself, that she suffers the burden of once again turning the other cheek and giving Alicent even more opportunity to let go of her (unjustified) vendetta and make peace.  

Oh come on.. I actually agree with you that the show is biased toward the Blacks and I'm waiting to get some proper grey characters like GRRM promised. Hopefully in season 2.

But you're really undermining yourself and your purpose by writing it like this. You just make yourself come as bitter and whining.

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21 minutes ago, Khloey said:

Oh come on.. I actually agree with you that the show is biased toward the Blacks and I'm waiting to get some proper grey characters like GRRM promised. Hopefully in season 2.

But you're really undermining yourself and your purpose by writing it like this. You just make yourself come as bitter and whining.

How? The scene is well acted for what it’s worth, and I like the heart to heart Alicent-Rhaenyra showed. 
 

It’s just annoying how the show takes every opportunity to show the Greens being despicable trash and have the blacks constantly being the perfect idols

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As it should be. The Green princes are envious of their nephews, while Rhaenyra's sons can bask in the glory that comes with being the children of the Heir Apparent and the favorites of King Viserys I himself.

Remember, in the book Viserys had great fun taking Jace up on the Iron Throne, telling him how he would be king one day.

These people have no reason to be jealous of their pitiful uncles. The king is favoring them. It was a stretch to present them as self-conscious because of their non-Valyrian looks. They should be so sure of themselves that they completely ignore talk like that. Because it doesn't matter.

Aegon doesn’t even want the throne, yet he is still a complete asshole. Teasing is a term of endearment, hitting on his wife to be isn’t teasing, it’s provoking.

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On 10/11/2022 at 7:45 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

*Granted, I don’t think HOTD is quite as big as HBO claims it is. The Nielsen ratings for the premiere were a lot lower than what they were promoting, and if they’re willing to inflate their subscriber numbers for investors—which they’re now being sued for—then I don’t think it’s that crazy to think they’d exaggerate other data too.

Don't truly think so.

The Nielsen ratings counts only for minutes on TV and on the US.

So if you're watching it on other devices, i usually watch it on my laptop or tablet, or if you're not on the Usa. You don'tt exist for Nielsen.

HBO will obviously give the total global viewership on all devices. It suits them more. 

 

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I agree with Lord Varys that Jace and especially Luke do not comport themselves too well in the dinner scene.  Luke's laughing at Aemond about the pig is pretty dickish - especially considering as LV mentioned he should have taken that opportunity to apologize for, ya know, taking his eye.  And then Jace attacking Aemond just for calling them Strongs demonstrates his immaturity.  Everybody in that room knows that - in episode 7 Jace even seems somewhat proud of his actual father and definitely sorry for his loss when he tells his mother they should be at Harrenhal - so get the fuck over it.  Now, they're teenagers so I don't really blame them for such immaturity...but by the same token, so are Aegon and Aemond (or thereabouts for Aegon I guess).

Edited by DMC
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2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

It’s just annoying how the show takes every opportunity to show the Greens being despicable trash and have the blacks constantly being the perfect idols

Aegon doesn’t even want the throne, yet he is still a complete asshole. Teasing is a term of endearment, hitting on his wife to be isn’t teasing, it’s provoking.

I understand but to be fair, Aemond came across as quite badass in that scene. His rivalry/likeliness to Daemon is already showing.

Alicent was shown as someone who cared for Viserys, a sickly old man for a really long time and, as Rhaenyra herself said so in her toast, she was quite alone in doing so. Rh and Daemon being away on Dragonstone.

I also liked (though it was subtle) the gentil appreciation of Helaena's toast by Otto. Helaena herself seems like a sweet girl, a kind of "Luna Lovegood", strange but with a good heart.

Only Aegon was an ass. Although Lucerys too, to e lesser extent when he laughed to Aemond's face when the roasted pig arrives.

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53 minutes ago, Khloey said:

I understand but to be fair, Aemond came across as quite badass in that scene. His rivalry/likeliness to Daemon is already showing. 
 

A badass is someone who’s action (or inaction) backs up their words. 
 

Aemond comes off as a sensitive prick letting Jace’s smirk get under his skin.

53 minutes ago, Khloey said:

Alicent was shown as someone who cared for Viserys, a sickly old man for a really long time and, as Rhaenyra herself said so in her toast, she was quite alone in doing so. Rh and Daemon being away on Dragonstone. 
 

I like the toast, but I hate how Rhaenyra had to be the first one to go. If Alicent really felt affection for Viserys his words would have moved her. 
 

Instead Rhaenyra is once more shown to be the one who breaks the ice and mends wounds because she is impenetrable to hate.

53 minutes ago, Khloey said:

I also liked (though it was subtle) the gentil appreciation of Helaena's toast by Otto. Helaena herself seems like a sweet girl, a kind of "Luna Lovegood", strange but with a good heart. 
 

Agreed. But it’s worth noting that her lovable nature, rather than be used to humanize the Greens is used to reflect on how poorly they behave by having her side with Luke against her own brother and mocking him for being an alcoholic.

 

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I've seen plenty of online reactions where people side with the greens or at least understand their position. And plenty of reactions regarding the unsavory or at least morally gray behavior of the blacks. So this idea that the show is making the blacks purely good and heroic while the greens are just bad is personal perception, nothing more.

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7 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I've seen plenty of online reactions where people side with the greens or at least understand their position. And plenty of reactions regarding the unsavory or at least morally gray behavior of the blacks. So this idea that the show is making the blacks purely good and heroic while the greens are just bad is personal perception, nothing more.

I've seen many who say that they understand Alicent's point of view, but still can't root for her because she's insufferable.

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1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Instead she just bashes her own family and dances with the enemy, driving home how bad the greens are and how pure and nice the blacks are. 

I don't think Helaena intended to "bash her own family" at all.  If she did, I hardly think Otto would approve.  They clearly seem to be depicting her as on the spectrum somewhat, which perhaps is correlated with her prophetic dreams/abilities.  Seems pretty clear that, to her, that was an earnest toast.  It also was - by far - the funniest thing in the entire series so far.

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19 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't think Helaena intended to "bash her own family" at all.  If she did, I hardly think Otto would approve.  They clearly seem to be depicting her as on the spectrum somewhat, which perhaps is correlated with her prophetic dreams/abilities.  Seems pretty clear that, to her, that was an earnest toast.  It also was - by far - the funniest thing in the entire series so far.

The thing is, even if she doesn't know the implication of what she is saying we (the viewers) and the rest of dinner table do. 

It reminds me of my high school. We had this class integration program with the autistic students and when there was someone the class didn't like (for whatever reason) they'd use one of those special kids to make a bunch of bald face observations out loud that no one else had the guts to say. 

Just like how when Helaena is toasting to her brother everyone else is smirking and the people (the audience) who are aware cheer her on for outing this asshole even if she's not part of the inside joke. 

It might be the funniest thing, but that isn't saying much for a show with practically zero humor. And frankly I can't laugh at this stuff anymore when it's just used incessantly to destroy one side. Like the scene with King Viserys walking to the throne, everything about that was epic in how it was shot and the music playing in the background and everything. But I was just groaning to see how once again the Greens are shown to be insufferably evil with their dumb 'surprise' faces. 

And really, I like Alicent and Otto more than Rhaneyra and Daemon conceptually. Otto is apparently a great statesman who has served the realm loyally for decades. And Alicent is a dedicated wife and someone with great personal integrity.  

But that isn't what we see. We are told of Otto's noble service but all we are shown is him deceiving the council for his own gain and at the expense of the realm. We are told Alicent is dedicated wife but all we see is her sending the king away and manipulating his weakened health to put her own son on the throne. And we are told of her modesty and integrity but she raises a drunken/rapist and a psychopath while the free-spirit Rhaenyra who (supposedly) hates duty raises three honest boys who are eager to rule and committed to learning and diplomacy.  

I don't buy what their selling and I role my eyes each time the showrunners try to get me to cheer the blacks or laugh at the greens. 

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