[Spoilers] Episode 108 Discussion

[DMC]

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

The thing is, even if she doesn't know the implication of what she is saying we (the viewers) and the rest of dinner table do. 

I mean, yes, it was obviously at the expense of Aegon.  Just saying she clearly didn't intend to "bash her family."

3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

And frankly I can't laugh at this stuff anymore when it's just used incessantly to destroy one side.

Then I suggest you lighten up.

[butterweedstrover]

56 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I've seen plenty of online reactions where people side with the greens or at least understand their position. And plenty of reactions regarding the unsavory or at least morally gray behavior of the blacks. So this idea that the show is making the blacks purely good and heroic while the greens are just bad is personal perception, nothing more.

I'd wonder who those people are. I think part of it is the framing from a marketing perspective where people feel like they should acknowledge how supposedly nuanced this story is and then just jump in bed with the Blacks. 

That is what I see with in the Youtube sphere. People who pay lip service to how they "get the greens" and then gush over Daemon killing Vaemond or Viserys kicking Otto off his throne. 

There is this premonition of nuance because we are told of an adequate motive (safety for her children) and see some emotional sensitivity from Alicent. But the problem is on an intellectual level that fear does not come off as legitimate through further inspection and those moments of emotional vulnerability are all directed at their own side.  

Like Alicent is shown to be relatable when she is either at odds with her own faction or sympathizing with the Blacks. The two biggest moments that made people go "awe, Ally" were when she slapped her son for raping that girl and when she forgave Rhaenyra. 

Both those moments undermine her case for war which ruins her character in the long term because that is what the show is trying to sell us, that she will go to war and we have to understand why for 2-3 seasons. 

[Adaneth]

On 10/10/2022 at 2:17 PM, butterweedstrover said:

Removing the cool Targaryen (Nazi) decorations with symbols of the faith is meant to show you how Alicent is a zealot.

I still don't understand that choice. To call it absurd, is an understatement. Why would Alicent remove the Targ heraldry? It doesn't make any sense. No noble, let alone royal one, above all a Queen, would ever do such a thing.

The heraldry is an identification of rank and pedigree of your house and/or Monarchy. She is the Queen, married to the King of Westeros, who is a Targaryen. Her children are Targaryen, and therefore it's their heraldry too.

Her entire claim rest on that fact that her son is the rightful King because he's the first son (not a bastard either, which helps ) of King Viserys I Targaryen.

 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Fine performance from Paddy Considine.  Now the prophecy.  Viserys saw a blonde girl in his vision, the Prince(ss) Who Was Promised,  and mistook her for Rhaenyra.  The girl he saw was Daenerys Targaryen. 

[C.T. Phipps]

On 10/17/2022 at 8:15 AM, Adaneth said:

I still don't understand that choice. To call it absurd, is an understatement. Why would Alicent remove the Targ heraldry? It doesn't make any sense. No noble, let alone royal one, above all a Queen, would ever do such a thing.

The heraldry is an identification of rank and pedigree of your house and/or Monarchy. She is the Queen, married to the King of Westeros, who is a Targaryen. Her children are Targaryen, and therefore it's their heraldry too.

Her entire claim rest on that fact that her son is the rightful King because he's the first son (not a bastard either, which helps ) of King Viserys I Targaryen

Because it's gross and vulgar and Viserys won't say no.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

Looking back now I feel there was a missed opportunity with Vaemond, especially if they wanted to show him as being honest to a fault and concerned for his house.

If it were up to me, I would have had Vaemond demand a trial by combat, with the Silent Five (here reinterpreted as Vaemond's sons) turning it into a trial by seven. When the Blacks then point out there's only six of them, who of all people emerges from the crowd to back Vaemond and his sons up? Gwayne Hightower! (Seriously, the fact he hasn't appeared since episode 1 is a bit of a missed opportunity as far as character interactions go.) Since Rhaenyra is the heir Viserys could insist the Kingsguard be her champions, which would not only give the showrunners a chance to show (and name) all the members but also show how they're so much better than Robert's by having the resulting battle be mostly one-sided. Plus, having Criston be forced to defend Rhaenyra would be deliciously ironic and if that wouldn't work they could come up with some excuse for Daemon to take his place.

Not only would that have made more sense than Daemon randomly murdering Vaemond in open court (I have no doubt Visenya would chew out the Kingsguard for being "slow and lazy") but it would have provided a good setpiece on top of expanding on what was in F & B. Oh, and it would have lent more credence to Baelor Breakspear saying there hadn't been a trial by seven in around a century when, so far as we know, the last one was at the beginning of Maegor's reign over 150 years ago. Plus, it would make Vaemond come off as slightly less stupid and slightly more sympathetic (if that was indeed what they were going for based off the episode's BTS vid).

Of course, this could take away from Paddy's performance in the episode so there is that to contend with.

Edited November 13, 2022 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Looking back now I feel there was a missed opportunity with Vaemond, especially if they wanted to show him as being honest to a fault and concerned for his house.

I'm sure nobody ever wanted to present Vaemond as 'honest to a fault and concerned for his house'.

Not George in the book, and certainly none of the writers of the show.

The guy wanted to steal the birthright of his brother's granddaughters just as well as that of Corlys' grandsons.

He does not even have a right to speak for House Velaryon. It is like Kevan's boys wanting to speak for Lord Tywin.

There could have been a trial-by-combat or even a Trial of Seven over the issue of Rhaenyra's sons ... but it would have been Queen Alicent or another member of the royal family acting as the accuser. A guy like Vaemond would always be dismissed.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Lord Varys

The BTS for episode 8 would beg to differ re Vaemond if I recall. And if Morgil Hastwyck could get a trial by combat after accusing Naerys I don't see why Vaemond couldn't get one too after accusing Rhaenyra of pretty much the exact same crimes.

Edited November 14, 2022 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Lord Varys

The BTS for episode 8 would beg to differ re Vaemond if I recall. And if Morgil Hastwyck could get a trial by combat after accusing Naerys I don't see why Vaemond couldn't get one too after accusing Rhaenyra of pretty much the exact same crimes.

Morgil Hastwyck was apparently a patsy of King Aegon IV who wanted to undermine his sister-wife, his brother, and the legitimacy of his heir. It makes sense that this guy would then get the trial he and the king himself wanted, no?

King Viserys I wanted none of the above, and he has already ruled on the matter of legitimacy of his grandsons, stipulating what punishments were due to whoever dared to question their legitimate birth.

Also, of course, Targaryen power was different in the dragon age. Even in later days Vaemond Velaryon would be an obscure nephew - like Kevan's boys questioning the succession of Casterly Rock as stipulated by Lord Tywin - but in that era such an attempt would have even less chance of success than in later days.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Lord Varys

Fair enough. I guess my main gripe with that scene is the fact that 1) Daemon gets away with murdering a nobleman in open court and 2) The lack of the Silent Five, which really makes House Velaryon feel smaller than it should.

That being said, between Hobert/Otto, Viserys/Daemon, Corlys/Vaemond, Aegon/Aemond, and Jason/Tyland, I really feel like the theme of S1 is actually ambition and how second sons relate to it.

Edited November 15, 2022 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[OrionSkybourne1]

On 10/9/2022 at 10:10 PM, zajaz said:

I kinda prefer the book version of Viserys dying because he got obese. Show Viserys looks like he was cursed to turn into the love child of the Cryptkeeper and the Phantom of the Opera.

Also, this episode just convinced me into ignoring the first five episodes of this show. Emily Carey's more naive and vulnerable version of Alicent (or, as I call her now, Alisaint) just seems like a waste of time in hindsight.

Also, am I misremembering, or did Rhaenyra had Daemon kill Vaemond and then feed his corpse to Syrax in the books?

Yes, she did feed Vaemond to Syrax for insinuating that her sons were bastards!