[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion

[C.T. Phipps]

2 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Also as someone else pointed out (and I even brought up last episode) it is really hypocritical to of ignored mushrooms version of what happened only to them incorporate it but only for Aegon 

Mushroom is the one that more or less invented the whole "Rhaenyra is a whore who went to brothels with Daemon and had three bastard children." I feel like people have created an incredibly selective version of events where the Greens are getting potrayed as bad and the Blacks as good. Which ignores the Blacks have always been the fan favorites and had a moral edge.

And it also totally ignores that Alicent has been MAJORLY whitewashed.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I liked the structure of this episode, at least for the first two-thirds. The lighting is a big issue though, especially since the previews from before the episode indicate that this is very much a GOT/HOTD thing, not an HBO thing.

My prediction of an Alicent/Criston/Larys love triangle is looking more likely every day. Criston's line about how "all women are made in the mother's image" felt really strange to me, and at first I blamed the actor. Then it occurred to me that this might just be Criston parroting Alicent's rhetoric, and not be something he truly believes on his own. 

The foot fetish scene was almost startlingly depressing to watch. It really hammers home just how miserable Alicent's life has become, even in the very privileged role she occupies.

I'm not sure what they were trying to do with Helaena this episode. She got angry with Alicent for seemingly no reason, and she suddenly adopted a steely demeanor when faced with Rhaenys on her dragon at the end. This could just be a "hidden depth," but we know so little of her character that it just felt like an inconsistency. Her and Alicent's scenes together were also a bit immersion-breaking because they look very close in age.

There were rumors early on that Aemond would be secretly in love with Helaena, and it looks like they wrote that it and then cut it in editing. And how is he Aegon's heir if Aegon already has a son?

Another detail differentiating Otto from Tywin: Tywin gets angry whenever Cersei tries to stick up for herself. Otto, on the other hand, always looks impressed when Alicent does it.

Rhaenys is apparently totally cool with killing tons of peasants with her dragon, but doesn't take out the greens when she has the chance. Okay then. 

[Stannis is the man....nis]

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

This is ridiculous.

Seriously. What sort of nonsense suggests that the writers are inventing a feminist agenda. ITS ALWAYS BEEN FEMINIST. The story is called the "Princess and the Queen." Also, why do people keep trying to defend the Greens? They've ALWAYS been the villains of this. Martin is a feminist and like half of A Song of Ice and Fire is about the female perspective in Medieval life and how it fucking sucks.

I’d argue it’s less defending the greens (because they suck in the books too) as much as it’s an objection to painting this as a good vs evil fight because the blacks do so many reprehensible things later that to paint them as “the good guys” will give the show tone issues later on

[miyuki]

I can't help but like the Greens more in this show. They are so much more weirder, edgier and flawed that it makes them just much more fun and entertaining. Larys the feetlover and Aemond the blade studier for the win. Sorry Daemon you are basic now.

[C.T. Phipps]

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

I liked the structure of this episode, at least for the first two-thirds. The lighting is a big issue though, especially since the previews from before the episode indicate that this is very much a GOT/HOTD thing, not an HBO thing.

My prediction of an Alicent/Criston/Larys love triangle is looking more likely every day. Criston's line about how "all women are made in the mother's image" felt really strange to me, and at first I blamed the actor. Then it occurred to me that this might just be Criston parroting Alicent's rhetoric, and not be something he truly believes on his own. 

The foot fetish scene was almost startlingly depressing to watch. It really hammers home just how miserable Alicent's life has become, even in the very privileged role she occupies.

I'm not sure what they were trying to do with Helaena this episode. She got angry with Alicent for seemingly no reason, and she suddenly adopted a steely demeanor when faced with Rhaenys on her dragon at the end. This could just be a "hidden depth," but we know so little of her character that it just felt like an inconsistency. Her and Alicent's scenes together were also a bit immersion-breaking because they look very close in age.

There were rumors early on that Aemond would be secretly in love with Helaena, and it looks like they wrote that it and then cut it in editing. And how is he Aegon's heir if Aegon already has a son?

Another detail differentiating Otto from Tywin: Tywin gets angry whenever Cersei tries to stick up for herself. Otto, on the other hand, always looks impressed when Alicent does it.

Rhaenys is apparently totally cool with killing tons of peasants with her dragon, but doesn't take out the greens when she has the chance. Okay then. 

I think its Helaena having known this moment was coming and knowing none of her family paid her the slightest attention.

[C.T. Phipps]

Just now, Stannis is the man....nis said:

I’d argue it’s less defending the greens (because they suck in the books too) as much as it’s an objection to painting this as a good vs evil fight because the blacks do so many reprehensible things later that to paint them as “the good guys” will give the show tone issues later on

I mean, they've already had Daemon straight up murder his wife. They can't ignore Blood and Cheese because it's as iconic as the Red Wedding or will be.

I don't see a problem with the idea "war makes us all monsters" versus the idea everyone starts off as evil.

Especially as corruption is a great story arc.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Note: My family knew personally Trump when I was a kid and considered him a complete asshole.

Paint me completely unsurprised.  I’ve found that man incredibly distasteful ever since he became a public figure in the 1980’s.  He’s always come across as smarmy and self-important. 1/20/2016 was among the worst days in US History… back to the actual topic.

Would Otto have usurped his daughter if she had declared for Rhaenyra?

[sifth]

5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, they've already had Daemon straight up murder his wife. They can't ignore Blood and Cheese because it's as iconic as the Red Wedding or will be.

I don't see a problem with the idea "war makes us all monsters" versus the idea everyone starts off as evil.

Especially as corruption is a great story arc.

Didn't she go for her bow first and than mock him into finishing her off. I recall Daemon leaving, when she said something like "I knew you were too weak, to actually do it". I'm not saying it was right, what he did, but she did very much poke the bear in that scene.

Edited October 17, 2022 by sifth

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, miyuki said:

I can't help but like the Greens more in this show. They are so much more weirder, edgier and flawed that it makes them just much more fun and entertaining. Larys the feetlover and Aemond the blade studier for the win. Sorry Daemon you are basic now.

[teej6]

If only writers cared more about logic and continuity in the story and stopped trying to make badass moments. Sapochnik states that they wanted a penultimate scene and decided that a dragon let lose is the worst thing that could happen in a coronation. So, they don’t care if that scene makes sense or there’s any logic to it, they just want spectacle and a badass moment for Rhaenys. 

[zajaz]

Also speaking of GRRM''s feminist POV, he sure sometimes is way crueler to the female highborn population that real life was for shock value, I feel. Consider Catelyn's case. What they did to her during the Red Wedding (and to her corpse after it) is something that would have had the real life Chruch excommunating Freys left and right for all eternity. Even Margaret of Anjou (who I'm sure the Yorkist hated with a passion of a thousand suns) was allowed to live under custody (and later ransomed back to France), despite her being (arguably) the real leader of the Lancastrian cause for over ten years. Hurting highborn women (enemies or not) was a big no-no in the Middle Ages.

Edited October 17, 2022 by zajaz

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, zajaz said:

Also speaking of GRRM''s feminist POV, he sure sometimes is way crueler to the female highborn population that real life was for shock value, I feel. Consider Catelyn's case. What they did to her during the Red Wedding (and to her corpse after it) is something that would have had the real life Chruch excommunating Freys left and right for all eternity. Even Margaret of Anjou (who I'm sure the Yorkist hated with a passion of a thousand suns) was allowed to live under custody (and later ransomed back to France), despite her being (arguably) the real leader of the Lancastrian Cause for over ten years. Hurting highborn women (enemies or not) was a big no-no in the Middle Ages.

Martin's complete emasculation of the Church in politics is something that has been commented on numerous times. It's even worse in the show because D&D didn't actually want the church advocating for the small folk because, I guess that would make them look too much like heroes.

[sifth]

1 minute ago, zajaz said:

Also speaking of GRRM''s feminist POV, he sure sometimes is way crueler to the female highborn population that real life was for shock value, I feel. Consider Catelyn's case. What they did to her during the Red Wedding (and to her corpse after it) is something that would have had the real life Chruch excommunating Freys left and right for all eternity. Even Margaret of Anjou (who I'm sure the Yorkist hated with a passion of a thousand suns) was allowed to live under custody (and later ransomed back to France), despite her being (arguably) the real leader of the Lancastrian Cause for over ten years. Hurting highborn women (enemies or not) was a big no-no in the Middle Ages.

To be fair, GRRM tortures pretty much all of his characters, all be it in different ways. Bran starts off the series being crippled, Jon gets stabbed to "death" by his own trusted men, Jamie gets his hand chopped off and spends his next few chapters in an insane amount of pain, Tyrion gets his nose chopped off and so on.

[DMC]

As I said in the poll thread, I thought this episode was fantastic - other than the foot fetish scene.  Still can't believe that's a thing.

I also don't have a problem with Rhaenys' escape because..she was trying to escape.  I'm sure she considers the plebs' deaths on those that imprisoned her, and so do I.  It's also entirely in-character that she wouldn't kill the greens - any of the greens - like that.

I also liked the "game" between Alicent and Otto in finding Aegon.  Although, granted, I'm curious as to how Alicent plans NOT to kill Rhaenyra, considering she already knows she won't bend the knee.

As for why they didn't kill Westerling, probably because the only one in the room that could was Cole, and that was hardly a sure thing.  Somewhat reminiscent of Barristan's resignation.

[zajaz]

12 minutes ago, sifth said:

To be fair, GRRM tortures pretty much all of his characters, all be it in different ways. Bran starts off the series being crippled, Jon gets stabbed to "death" by his own trusted men, Jamie gets his hand chopped off and spends his next few chapters in an insane amount of pain, Tyrion gets his nose chopped off and so on.

The issue that I have with it is that those (except maybe Bran's case) are all things that happened to a huge amount of men in a span as short as a single month back in the Middle Ages. Stabbing a somewhat unpopular leader? Foreign condottieri maiming an enemy knight? A nobleborn man being injured in battle? Those thing happened in an almost weekly basis during the more violent years of the period.

Killing a noblewoman (akin to a Duchess) and then stripping her naked and throwing her corpse into a river?

That shit would have been condemned by almost everyone (particularly the Chruch), I feel.

Who knows maybe Westerosi are more progressive than we thought? Maybe thay have decided: "If male highborn can be tortured and mutilated, why can't the noblewomen ? It's quite sexist to spare them just because they are the gentle sex".

Edited October 17, 2022 by zajaz

[SeanF]

31 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Otto (the “Masturbating Welshman” from Notting Hill) is a damn good actor.  Subtle yet forceful.  There is power behind his smile.  

I do wonder what was his plan if Alicent followed through on her pledge to Rhaenyra?

There’s a character in The Favourite, described simply as “Wanking Man.”

[butterweedstrover]

27 minutes ago, sifth said:

Like how it white washed many of Cersei's actions

Well Cersei could use some whitewashing. She was so evil in the books toning it down a bit gave her more complexity. But maybe the point was to have her be absolutely evil, who knows. There were times where I felt Lena having a heart to heart with Tyrion about Joffrey was way out of character for what the plot demanded of her. 

[C.T. Phipps]

BTW, are we to assume that Otto is actually just utter shit at scheming and sort of the anti-Littlefinger? One of the seminal moments of Game of Thrones is that Joffrey's actions at the Great Sept were one of the biggest mistakes of the conflict. Here, Otto is fucking hanging a Great Lord of the Realm in the middle of the castle courtyard for refusing to break his oath.

Alicent has been carrying his water for much of the Dance ranging from realizing she can't just seduce Viserys to helping defeat the Crabfeeder to getting him back on the Hand's seat (though that was more Larys). We also find out Otto depends entirely on the White Worm.

Is it deliberate he's a paper tiger used by and propped up by women? It's an interesting take because I like the idea that he's effectively Viserys' opposite number, a mediocre hand and a mediocre man who dreams of himself as a great genius. That's assuming he wasn't behind the regicide of King Joe and Viserys by slow poisoning.

[teej6]

21 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

And how is he Aegon's heir if Aegon already has a son?

Again, another inconsistency. Don’t they remember their script or do they write scenes independent of one another. 

[C.T. Phipps]

8 minutes ago, zajaz said:

The issue that I have with it is that those (except maybe Bran's case) are all things that happened to a huge amount of men in a span as short as a single month back in the Middle Ages. Stabbing a somewhat unpopular leader? Foreign condottieri maiming an enemy knight? A nobleborn man being injured in battle? Those thing happened in an almost weekly basis during the more violent years of the period.

Killing a noblewoman (akin to a Duchess) and then stripping her naked and throwing her corpse into a river?

That shit would have been condemned by almost everyone (particularly the Chruch), I feel.

Who knows maybe Westerosi are more progressive than we thought? Maybe thay have decided: "If male highborn can be tortured and mutilated, why can't the noblewomen ? It's quite sexist to spare them just because they are the gentle sex".

I mean, The Frey's act is meant to be one of the most infamous in all of history.

The Campbells according to my cousin, a Campbell, stated that this shit was a joke centuries later.