[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion

[zajaz]

Trying to change the topic somewhat, I do believe @The Bard of Banefort was onto something mentioning a possible Alicent-Cole-Larys kinda affair? The way Cole said "I will not fail you" to Alicent with that look in his eyes was an interesting choice by the writers (or the director, in this case), I thought. *Shurgs*. I just hope they don't turn this into a soap-opera (then again, HotD already is, so...).

Edited October 17, 2022 by zajaz

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

The bolded is you making it about politics, and quite an assumption.  I don't think making Alicent more sympathetic is because they are "afraid of backlash."  And it certainly isn't for Rhaenyra.  The major change from the books is making them best friends at the beginning of the series, and of an age.  That change SHOULD reverberate in this episode, otherwise there's no point in doing it.

As for Helaena, I like that they've actually done something interesting with her for the show, but it's not like she needed to be "whitewashed" from the books.  She never did anything bad in the books.

It's only about politics if you believe politics and culture are interchangeable, which I do not. As I said above, I have defended women and the way they're written on this site enough times that I don't think I need to prove myself. There's no denying the volume of accusations of sexism that were lobbed at GOT, D&D, and GRRM--much of it deserved--to the point where the showrunners for this show discussed it quite extensively in interviews leading up to HOTD's release. They're clearly very wary of having the same thing happen to them, and I think we're starting to see signs of that in the writing.

 

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, zajaz said:

The way Cole said "I will not fail you" to Alicent with that look eyes was an interesting choice by the writers (or the director, in this case).

Yeah that scene makes it clear he's definitely in love with her - and she knows it.  How she feels though...

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Whether I'm right or wrong about these things, I should note that history doesn't go straight forward but is more like a heart monitor in things like women's rights and xenophobia. After all, just look at Iran and it used to be considered the most progressive and democratic Muslim nation.

I think it actually may be canon that the Targaryens were a fairly progressive (by Medieval standards) age in the middle of their reigns but gradually became more reactionary with people like Baelor and the undoing of Aegon V's reforms (meager as they were to his true goals).

That could tie in with my suggestion about Tywin poisoning the well.  He’s very reactionary (his indignation about Robb Stark marrying beneath himself always amuses me) , very misogynistic, and very cruel, even by his world’s standards.

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 minutes ago, zajaz said:

Trying to change the topic somewhat, I do believe @The Bard of Banefort was onto something mentioning a possible Alicent-Cole-Larys kinda affair? The way Cole said "I will not fail you" to Alicent with that look eyes was an interesting choice by the writers (or the director, in this case), I thought. *Shurgs*. I just hope they don't turn this into a soap-opera (then again, HotD already is, so...).

She also made that remark to Cole about "all your feelings for me. . . as your queen."

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It's only about politics if you believe politics and culture are interchangeable, which I do not. As I said above, I have defended women and the way they're written on this site enough times that I don't think I need to prove myself. There's no denying the volume of accusations of sexism that were lobbed at GOT, D&D, and GRRM--much of it deserved--to the point where the showrunners for this show discussed it quite extensively in interviews leading up to HOTD's release. They're clearly very wary of having the same thing happen to them, and I think we're starting to see signs of that in the writing.

 

:Yawn:

[DMC]

1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It's only about politics if you believe politics and culture are interchangeable, which I do not.

It's about politics because such a backlash is/would be, by its nature, a political backlash.  And you're saying the showrunners are doing things they otherwise wouldn't do for fear of that backlash.  Now, maybe you think they are doing it for business reasons rather than their own political beliefs, but the assertion is still about politics.

[Corvinus85]

5 minutes ago, DMC said:

With Alicent's ambivalence - and outright threat to Jasper - I don't think it really would have worked in context.

True. Considering that Alicent doesn't take the blood oath anyhow, they could have shown Otto gather the others afterwards and take the blood oath then.

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Lord of Brewtown said:

And yeah - the armor/wardrobe change struck me as odd.  I'm going to stop and throw on armor (or a dragon-riding suit?) while I'm in a hurry to get to my dragon/get free?   

Just so obviously a 'we need her to look/be badass' play.    I'll admit, she did look cool; but, this is just over-the-top.  

So I watched the scene again when Ser Erryk picks her up… no armor then. maybe she carries an armor suit on Meleys, who knows. Maybe, I’ll enjoy these shows better if I stop caring about continuity and logical progression in scenes. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

True. Considering that Alicent doesn't take the blood oath anyhow, they could have shown Otto gather the others afterwards and take the blood oath then.

Yeah.  I just reread that chapter and noticed it was left out too.  But after Alicent basically shames them all it kinda takes the sails out of the scene - even if they did it after she left or something.

[TormundsWoman]

3 minutes ago, teej6 said:

So I watched the scene again when Ser Erryk picks her up… no armor then. maybe she carries an armor suit on Meleys, who knows. Maybe, I’ll enjoy these shows better if I stop caring about continuity and logical progression in scenes. 

Lol I guess you’re right. I assumed when she said I can’t leave Meleys behind she was prepped to ride her. If that costume is her riding armor I totally was fooled thinking she had it on her. I suppose I should pay more attention!

[Raksha 2014]

1 hour ago, Chad Vader said:

The Cargyll twins story is shaping up very nicely. Wasnt a fan of Rhaenys and Meleys at the end. Didnt make much sense to me. She killed lots of smallfolk and when she had the Greens cowering she has her dragon yell at them.

 

Rhaenys isn't a fool.  The High Septon of the Faith was standing in the line of fire next to the Targaryens.  If Rhaenys and her dragon had killed him (and I believe there was at least one other priest of the Faith there too), the Faith would have revolted against Driftmark and anyone else with whom Rhaenys was affiliated.  The dragons remaining in the Dragonpit of King's Landing probably would have been killed by the Faith months/years early.   Rhaenyra would not have been crowned in King's Landing by any Septon of the Faith unless she repudiated Rhaenys.  Not to mention the label of Kinslayer might not be one that Rhaenyra wanted to bear.

I loved the scene, though.  I think Rhaenys thoroughly enjoyed making the Greens cower at the fury of her Red Queen.

[The Bard of Banefort]

After episode five, I was surprised by how many people were bothered that Criston got away with killing Joffrey, since it's usually just us book snobs that care about that sort of thing. I'm similarly pleasantly surprised to see so many people upset that Rhaenys killed all those smallfolk in the dragonpit. It's a mark against her as a person, and it's a reminded of just how little this show has done to even remember that the smallfolk exist in the first place.

[Corvinus85]

1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

After episode five, I was surprised by how many people were bothered that Criston got away with killing Joffrey, since it's usually just us book snobs that care about that sort of thing. I'm similarly pleasantly surprised to see so many people upset that Rhaenys killed all those smallfolk in the dragonpit. It's a mark against her as a person, and it's a reminded of just how little this show has done to even remember that the smallfolk exist in the first place.

I believe plenty of people were also bothered by Laenor's death fakeout involving the murder of an innocent servant.

[teej6]

Criston Cole is turning out to be the only true villain in this show with little to no redeeming quality. His motives are a mess. Maybe they’ll show him nudge Aemond into full blown madness. 

[Corvinus85]

3 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

Rhaenys isn't a fool.  The High Septon of the Faith was standing in the line of fire next to the Targaryens.  If Rhaenys and her dragon had killed him (and I believe there was at least one other priest of the Faith there too), the Faith would have revolted against Driftmark and anyone else with whom Rhaenys was affiliated.  The dragons remaining in the Dragonpit of King's Landing probably would have been killed by the Faith months/years early.   Rhaenyra would not have been crowned in King's Landing by any Septon of the Faith unless she repudiated Rhaenys.  Not to mention the label of Kinslayer might not be one that Rhaenyra wanted to bear.

I loved the scene, though.  I think Rhaenys thoroughly enjoyed making the Greens cower at the fury of her Red Queen.

While you have a good point about the High Septon, who exactly would have riled up the mob and against whom, since a good swipe across the dais from Meleys would have left no credible witnesses.

[TormundsWoman]

1 hour ago, Arataniello said:

I guess we now know why Lord Commander Graham McTavish didn’t die earlier.  He’s taken the place of Ser Steffon, who was the KG who first defected to Rhaenyra.

I’ll be honest I thought Erryk Cargyll had a leather pouch with him. I genuinely thought he was carrying Viserys’ crown to Rhaenyra taking that portion of Ser Darklyn’s storyline. But I can see Harry Westerling doing it too. It’s just that he didn’t really say he’s for Rhaenyra. He just said “call me when there’s an anointed king”.

Edited October 17, 2022 by TormundsWoman

[IFR]

8 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

After episode five, I was surprised by how many people were bothered that Criston got away with killing Joffrey, since it's usually just us book snobs that care about that sort of thing. I'm similarly pleasantly surprised to see so many people upset that Rhaenys killed all those smallfolk in the dragonpit. It's a mark against her as a person, and it's a reminded of just how little this show has done to even remember that the smallfolk exist in the first place.

I think it significantly alters the tone of the narrative. She's an outright villain equivalent to Gregor Cleagane at this point, but with a victim's mentality.

This was such a poor storytelling choice that the quality of this show has been downgraded for me from excellent with some problems, to pretty dumb but entertaining enough.

It makes me wonder if David Benioff and Dan Weiss are the only ones capable of writing great fantasy tv.

Edited October 17, 2022 by IFR

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I believe plenty of people were also bothered by Laenor's death fakeout involving the murder of an innocent servant.

I guess they were drowned out by the sounds of all the Daemyra shippers. 

[Steelborn]

Loved the Daenerysation of Rhaenys. Killing the smallfolk and instilling fear upon them, so later the faction you're fighting for can expect their unconditional support.

It was heroic and girlboss.