[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I guess they were drowned out by the sounds of all the Daemyra shippers. 

On my end I was like, "Watch how everyone will say he's white washed for murdering an innocent man to protect his fellow privileged noble."

[Raksha 2014]

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

While you have a good point about the High Septon, who exactly would have riled up the mob and against whom, since a good swipe across the dais from Meleys would have left no credible witnesses.

Unless Rhaenys was willing to burn all the people in the building and fleeing from it, to prevent descriptions of her being given to Gold Cloaks and Septons of the Faith, her identity would be quickly ascertained (not to mention Meleys would be known to the Dragonkeepers) - how many tough grandmas riding large red dragons are there?  

 

[butterweedstrover]

4 minutes ago, IFR said:

 

It makes me wonder if David Benioff and Dan Weiss are the only ones capable of writing great fantasy tv.

I wish this could be pinned to a wall somewhere. 

Everyone hates them but they were the only one's able to pull off a hit fantasy show while everything else (Witcher, RoP, Sandman, Wheel of Time, His Dark Material, Shadow and Bone, etc.) all feel off. 

And yeah, this show feels off. It is fun at times but feels way off. 

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, IFR said:

I think it significantly alters the tone of the narrative. She's an outright villain equivalent to Gregor Cleagane at this point, but with a victim's mentality.

  She's trying to escape.  It's certainly another good depiction of the dragons stomping on the smallfolk, but if every character in asoiaf that doesn't give two figs about the smallfolk is "an outright villain," then almost all of them are.

[Rockroi]

So… Episode Nine . . . it was there.  There were many episodes this season and this was defiantly one of them.  

What I liked:

Barry Goldwater, Donald Trump and Aegon II:  So when Barry Godlwater ran for President in 1964 people said he was a radical crazy-person who would nuke Vietnam and ruin the country.  The hope was that the job would change him; take this reactionary nut and make him Presidential.  He was never elected so there was a bridge we did not have to cross.  In 2016, the same issue occurred: a completely unfit person seemed close to being President and while people were afraid of that, the hope was that the job would change him.

It didn’t.  Leave it at that, 

Enter Aegon II.  He seems unready for the job… and knows it.  He specifically says he does not want this job.  And he complains about it as he is ready to be coronated.  And When he literally ascends to the throne, you can see the weight of it on him.  How Aegon seems overwhelmed by this … burden.  He walks down the path and he seems so small, so helpless and so insignificant.  

Aegon is a terrible person.  And you STILL cannot help but feel somewhat sorry for him at that moment.  He does not want this moment and … he is not ready for it.  And who could be?  This show made us understand that NOBODY is ready for this role and could never be.  This show built such marvelous tension and when it came to pass, Aegon… started to realize how terrible this job was going to be and that it would get him.  Yet he stilled TRIED to do something with it.  

In a way, he seemed like he was growing into the job- like we had hoped for in Barry Goldwater.  He gave it some life.  He gave it a chance.  It was a payoff.  

Then… ugh… 

The Green Counsel, The Tyrant Hand, and The Secrets: I like that Hightower, Lannister and a few others planned this for when Viserys died.  Because they definitely would have.  I liked that the show used it.  The way the Greens went at it was very good and very compelling and VERY realistic.  I do quibble that Hightower did not tell Alicent because he probably should have at some point prior to that meeting.  He needs the Queen and by not landing her it causes needless friction. But this thing would have been too important to leave to chance or the last minute. The fact that this was planned out was very good thinking.  

But the ultimate “Game Player” award goes to Otto Hightower who moved his pieces and did everything he could to solidify his family’s position – treating with the White Wurm; getting the King, setting things up for months, treating with his daughter and ultimately coronating the King with the trappings of House Targaryen.  This was his episode.  So even when his own daughter outmaneuvered him, he acquiesces… as you wish… 

Aemond The None: I like that Aemond wants to be the King.  Don’t blame him.  He explains how he would be perfect for the job and not his silly brother.  Who would not think this?  It shows how complicated this character – and this situation – can be.

The Queen: This was the most Alicent episode.  She loves her children and she is motivated by something that she believes is good motivation – her husband’s dying wish.  She moves people around, mobilizes resources, and then whips her son in order.  She then BEGS her son to go easy on his sister and he seems to heed her warning.  Alicent even … put her foot down … to get some results (see below).  And she ven tried to win over The Queen Who Was Not Crowned and MAY have saved her son’s life because of it (see… even… belower…).  

This episode showed that Alicent is not evil or malicious but was what I always said she was- trying to save her family and may even be doing it because of her beloved Husband’s dying wish.  And when it got … really close to being bad… she stood between her son and certain death… 

… except … 

Viserys The Not a Fucking Fat Dumb Lazy Guy: I liked that Viserys’ gets one last parting grace to him- he is now known as “Viserys the Peaceful.”  (for now).  A good, final epitath to the best character in this show (for now).  

Scoring That Is not From Dragon Fire: The theme music in this episode was amazing.  It set the best tone.  It worked.  Loved it.  Great run-through. 

What I am on the Fence About:

Why Are You Chasing Him: I don't get why they are chasing after Aegon.  Will it make THAT much difference if Otto's men find him first or if Alicent's do?  I can't see how!  Why should we care?!  They never get me to.  Now, I will readily admit that the show does a good job using the chase to raise tension... but for what?  Why?  What would have happened had the chase needed with Otto getting him?  I don't think anything changes.  And if nothing changes than there are no consequences.  And if something has no consequences ...

The White Worm: She’s not dead.  We all know that.  Why try to make it seem like she is?  O… okay  . . . 

Who is Following Directions:
Lord Hightower: Nobody leaves this room.
Ser Westerling: (leaves)
O… okay then… 

How Can We Make the Guy With the Club Foot Who killed his Father and Brother Weirder:  Okay, so Strong has a foot fetish and the Queen knows it and gives him access to her royal… feet.  Very weird and distracting.  Why?  Why do it like this?  Do we need to have yet another reason to dislike this person?  And she couldn’t just get naked?  No… had to be … feet?  

Then again, if a guy has a foot fetish in ASoIaF, it is, BY FAR, the most acceptable sex hang up we’ve seen in the 9 seasons of ASoIaF on TV.  

What I Do Not Like:

Ser Criston Cole: God of Lack of Consequences.  First, he kills the “best friend” of the King Consort – nothing happens.  Then he kills the Lord Beesbury.  And … what?  What happens?  Consequences… smosiquences?  How many terrible things are going to happen where… there are no consequences?  Like none.  And is it always Cole?  It makes me think that people just do not give a shit in this universe and that’s not a good thing to think.  
Oh, and then he is made Lord Commander.  Kay . . . 

Stop. Saying. That: Stop saying women keep men from destroying the world when – in the final season of Game of Thrones - a woman literally and figuratively destroyed the world.  Seriously, its terrible.  Its dumb.  Stop being dumb.  Maybe its ironic?  No, that’s stooped.  Stop being stupid.  

Rhaenys Targaryen is the Stupidest Person in Westeros: When Social Media gets hold of this episode the story we will be force-fed is “Slay Queen” and how Rhaynes Targaryen “owned” this episode.

They are wrong. 

First of all, she kills like 100 people by breaking her dragon through the floor.  So, when I get done with this rant and you say “But she didn’t want to kill them because of …” just remember SHE JUST KILLED LIKE 100 PEOPLE!  And that means is that the smallfolk are not going to like her or the side she chooses.  Unless there are no consequences in this realm (which… oh that’s right).

Anway, where are the guards?  Like… dragons in this universe are like nuclear weapons – they are so much greater than any other weapon that they should be treated as such.  Where are the guards?  For the dragon?  Nope; apparently they were on break. 

So, regardless, she breaks through the floor and kills 100 people (easy btw – could be like 500).  Regardless, she kills them… she’s wearing armor… for … for some reason she was allowed a wardrobe change.  … k… 

And she is riding her nuclear weapon and arranged before her like ducks in a row.  One word (dracarys) and this war is over before it began.  She can wipe out Aegon, Aemond, the Queen, the Hand and it would PAVE THE WAY for Queen Rhaenyra.  Done and done.  She already knows that the Greens are playing for keeps- she sees Lord Bald Guy hanging from the rafters in the keep (gross); she knows this war will kill… wait let’s let Stannis Baratheon tell us 

(From Season 2 of GoT):
Random Soldier: Hundreds will die.
Stannis: Thousands.  
(Stannis is the fucking best).  

BUT ANYWAY… all this will definitely happen- all of her grandchildren could end up dead!  Her house annihilated; her head lopped off; everyone she cares about dead or impoverished.  Or worse.  But she can avoid all that.  All she needs to do is . . . hit the “Blow Fire” button.  

But she doesn’t.

Because that would be smaht.  And we can’t have decent people being smaht.  See, Tywin would have roasted them like geese.  It would have saved lives and won the war.  Can’t have that … apparently.  

So, after literally killing SCORES of people, she decides “You know what, I am willing to risk my grandchildren’s lives and my life on… a … lark?  A bet?  A hope?”  She just sentenced thousands to die.  Great work, dummy.  

Because. That. Was. Dumb.  This was the closest the show came to annoying the shit out of me.  You can’t do that!  It’s a baffling end to what has been- up to now - such a smart show.  

Now why did they do it?  Probably some “Girl Power” street cred, but also I think they went for “Spectacle” over “Substance.”  And that is the death of a good show.  You can have some spectacle, but it must have substance; it has to be based on something underlying and real.  This. Was . Not.  

Now, why didn’t she do it?  All the reasons suck,  She had respect for Alicent?  What?!?! She respects her so much she will destroy her family at war?  She is not becoming a pacifist after this!  Maybe her dargon cannot shoot fire (head canon).  She didn;t want to kill the High Septon?  That's even dumber.  Remember- you have the ability to stop a war that will kill all the septons.  Maybe Alicent is a warg?  And warg’d into the dragon?

Okay that’s how desperate I am.  I am so desperate that I am making this shit up to justify how terrible that ending was.  
If she, instead, flew her dragon and made a show of her escape to win people over to the Blacks… okay MAYBE… but she had the chance to win this war immediately.  And she just didn’t.  Poor. 

This was the weakest episode of the season.  It was still good, but in a sea of 9’s and 10s the 6-ness of this episode stands out.  

Let’s not have this happen again.  
 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Rockroi

[Minsc]

Just now, butterweedstrover said:

I wish this could be pinned to a wall somewhere. 

Everyone hates them but they were the only one's able to pull off a hit fantasy show while everything else (Witcher, RoP, Sandman, Wheel of Time, His Dark Material, Shadow and Bone, etc.) all feel off. 

And yeah, this show feels off. It is fun at times but feels way off. 

Hey, Sandman was great...

[butterweedstrover]

3 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Hey, Sandman was great...

It was like a boutique shop, pretty to look at and think about but its not going to become a big deal or spawn an entire industry of merchandise.  

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

So when Barry Godlwater ran for President in 1964 people said he was a radical crazy-person who would nuke Vietnam and ruin the country.  The hope was that the job would change him; take this reactionary nut and make him Presidential.  He was never elected so there was a bridge we did not have to cross.

Goldwater was never that crazy.  This perception - or rather the perception of this perception - is due to the success/significance of the Daisy ad.

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Again, another inconsistency. Don’t they remember their script or do they write scenes independent of one another. 

That ain't an inconsistency - nobody cares about little children. Not in the book (hello there, baby Aegon, son of Rhaegar after the Trident, or little Maegor, etc.), and definitely not in the show, where folks only start to take Aegon the Elder seriously as a contender for the throne when he grows older.

But in context there - Aemond wants the throne. He wants it very bad. You see it when he looks at Aegon during the coronation. Why should he not push aside or a ignore some little brat?

Really great seeing how Aegon getting his first taste at power. He never thought anybody would love him, or cheer him, but those morons did. And they will pay for it. When he started showing off Blackfyre again and again you could see how he started to like what was going on ... although the people behind him don't. Not yet.

Even earlier when he was walking down the Dragonpit to the podium you could see that he realized that these people were honoring him.

What I do expect/hope to happen with Aegon in season 2, during the time of his glorious rule:

- Ignoring, cutting off and eventually beating up Otto.

- Slapping and (publicly) humiliating Alicent. 'You are no mother of mine!'

- Raping Helaena to conceive Maelor if he isn't there yet (she was giving him a defiant at the coronation he didn't like).

- Going back to bullying Aemond who laid hands on him this episode.

Keep in mind what happened there. These people forced him to become king. They effectively put a gun to his head. And they think he will just treat them as his family and allies once he actually gets a taste for power? These people are complete morons who don't seem to understand the dynamics of power.

I very much enjoyed the portrayal of Alicent. This was a great move away from 'the scheming/evil woman' cliché and very much in line with what actually happens in such societies - the men scheme and use women as their pawns. It also realistically depicted how such things start to get a living of their own. You cannot really control them, if you ever did.

The conversation with Rhaenys might also end up coming back to haunt Alicent. She truly think she can guide Aegon or Aemond? That's never going to work. It is quite sad how she fails to understand what kind of children she has.

This is why I think Alicent and Rhaenyra might actually reconnect during Rhaenyra's reign - because she will have had a taste - or more than a taste - of the rule of her son(s), and she might not like that at all. Rhaenyra might actually listen to Alicent - Aegon and Aemond won't.

And we finally got the foot fetish scene after all. Very good to finally see that.

The, presumably, failed attack on Mysaria is also going to lay the groundwork for Blood and Cheese on her end. Alicent Hightower commanded her murder - and presumably killed quite a few of her friends in her burning manse there - so the debt collectors won't just come collecting for poor Luke.

The final scene was, of course, just nonsense. The beginning made sense but they would have the royal family run away immediately to escape the dragonflame that would doubtless engulf them momentarily.

Rhaenys could have killed them all at that point. There would have been no need for a war if there are no pretenders left on the other side (but little Daeron away in Oldtown). And for most of the Greens this whole thing will just be a sign of weakness.

Also, great to see them including Lady Fell who died a Black loyalist. Any idea who that older Black lord was who stayed true? Lord Caswell's death was to be expected, of course, since his wife is going to run things in the future.

[IFR]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

  She's trying to escape.  It's certainly another good depiction of the dragons stomping on the smallfolk, but if every character in asoiaf that doesn't give two figs about the smallfolk is "an outright villain," then almost all of them are.

Her dragon bursts through several layers of concrete in something specifically designed to contain it. She kills all of these people, but then spares Alicent and her family, ensuring a civil war. She could have searched for the Kingsguard leading her to an escape, or gone down to the harbor, or searched for an ally. In all the chaos, who is going to notice her? It can be argued that she may have been captured or killed (I'd say that's a very low risk), but her decision - if the narrative made any sense at all - should blacken her name across the realm, and anyone who allies with her.

At any rate, one can argue whether it was worth the sacrifice of killing all of those people to escape. But I don't see how one can argue that after doing that deed, sparing Alicient et al makes any kind of sense.

It was a ridiculous scene.

[Rockroi]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Goldwater was never that crazy.  This perception - or rather the perception of this perception - is due to the success/significance of the Daisy ad.

This is way ... way off topic, but reading the book "Before the Storm," shows that people had been worried about him for years and he showed it in many ways even before the "Daisey" add.  His comment that "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice" was a very, very radicle thing to say.  It fed the perception that he was not stately enough to be President.  

Regardless, thank you for commenting on this.  

[teej6]

22 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

While you have a good point about the High Septon, who exactly would have riled up the mob and against whom, since a good swipe across the dais from Meleys would have left no credible witnesses.

Or she could have simply asked the High Septon to step away from the others. I’m sure he’d have no trouble obliging her.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, IFR said:

She could have searched for the Kingsguard leading her to an escape, or gone down to the harbor, or searched for an ally. In all the chaos, who is going to notice her?

Of course she could have tried.  But the surest way is with her dragon.  And as she told Erryk (I think), she did not want to leave Meleys.  Her dragon > hundreds of smallfolk sounds like a pretty standard decision for a Targaryen.

[Raksha 2014]

5 minutes ago, DMC said:

  She's trying to escape.  It's certainly another good depiction of the dragons stomping on the smallfolk, but if every character in asoiaf that doesn't give two figs about the smallfolk is "an outright villain," then almost all of them are.

 

Yes.  Rhaenys is not a saint.  She's not Gregor Clegane either.  She had good reason to believe that if she remained in King's Landing, either as a captive in the Red Keep or alone on the streets, she would come to great harm or probably die (she'd seen a dissenting noble hanging dead in the latter).  Meleys was her ticket out of town and fast; and was so formidable as to discourage pursuit.  Plus, Rhaenys knew that if if she did not remove Meleys from the dragon pit; the Greens could kill her (Rhaenys) and keep the dragon to bond to one of Aegon's young children or Daeron, or otherwise keep the Red Queen from becoming a valuable asset to Rhaenyra should war erupt.  I'm not sure Rhaenys believed she could wait until the crowds emptied out before she freed Meleys and rode her; she knew they would be looking for her there.

It was not a good choice to have to make.  Rhaenys chose her own survival over that of a certain number (?20-50) smallfolk who were not her responsibility.  I do not know what I would have done in the same situation.

[C.T. Phipps]

7 minutes ago, IFR said:

At any rate, one can argue whether it was worth the sacrifice of killing all of those people to escape. But I don't see how one can argue that after doing that deed, sparing Alicient et al makes any kind of sense.

It was a ridiculous scene.

I will ask you a question:

Would it be easier to kill 100 strangers or your own family?

[Rockroi]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

Of course she could have tried.  But the surest way is with her dragon.  And as she told Erryk (I think), she did not want to leave Meleys.  Her dragon > hundreds of smallfolk sounds like a pretty standard decision for a Targaryen.

I think there is a good argument to be made that Targs are just terrible people when it comes to the smallfolk.  And if that's the case, then Viserys was the better choice and that argument (if there ever was one) is forever foreclosed.  

However, that only explains her being awful to the smallfolk.  I can get that. Why does she not go all the way? 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

but reading the book "Before the Storm," shows that people had been worried about him for years and he showed it in many ways even before the "Daisey" add.  His comment that "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice" was a very, very radicle thing to say.  It fed the perception that he was not stately enough to be President.

Goldwater was an "extremist" based on the composition of the Republican party at that time.  These days 1964 Goldwater would be something akin to John McCain - who replaced and admired him.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

However, that only explains her being awful to the smallfolk.  I can get that. Why does she not go all the way? 

The other side of the coin on the terrible stupidity of nobility - it wouldn't have been honorable.

[Rockroi]

Just now, DMC said:

Goldwater was an "extremist" based on the composition of the Republican party at that time.  These days 1964 Goldwater would be something akin to John McCain - who replaced and admired him.

But my point was only that in 1964 people thought X.  I'm trying to show how people back then hoped that if he won, the job would change him.  I'm not trying to say that Goldwater was not THAT bad (he ... he may still have been but not my argument); just that he clearly worried people in 1964. 

The messages he spouted needed MASSIVE refinement; he was not capable of doing that.  In 1968, Richard Nixon refined them to win back-to-back elections; 8 years later, Ronald Reagan refined them even more.

Goldwater was not capable of refinement (my whole point); the messages were.  Which is why from 1968-1992, this country elected ONE Democrat as President.  Crazy.  

[IFR]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Of course she could have tried.  But the surest way is with her dragon.  And as she told Erryk (I think), she did not want to leave Meleys.  Her dragon > hundreds of smallfolk sounds like a pretty standard decision for a Targaryen.

Well, she was lucky that apparently no one warned the guards that she was restricted access to the dragons, because everyone is making poor decisions now.

Anyway, I think this is just a badly thought out event that was designed purely for the shock value. It's tactically foolish, and it essentially reveals Viserys had a moral imperative to the crown because Rhaenys is an insane despot, and if there are no significant repercussions to this action (eg Rhaenys is immediately imprisoned by the Blacks when she tries to defect to them) then it will be an utter failure in the narrative.