[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion

[C.T. Phipps]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

No.  As has been mentioned, plenty of Targaryens are reticent when it comes to kinslaying.  Or killing septons.  Or killing their enemies "dishonorably."  Or killing their enemies before they're entirely sure Rhaenyra wants them dead.

As we know by killing Ned Stark, it's also fucking stupid on occasion.

I really hope Otto's hanging bites him in the ass.

 

[The hairy bear]

This one was a letdown for me. Specially after the last one.

Good things:

• It was a great choice not to show the blacks during the episode. Now I wonder if they'll try to mirror that in the next one, and they'll not include any scene from King's Landing.
• I liked how Aegon spends the whole episode claiming that he doesn't want to be king, only to fully embrace it the moment that people start shouting his name. It was not easy to define Aegon as a character, and they are doing a great work so far.
• The attention to detail of this show regarding heraldry is really amazing. The first lord that refuses to knee to Aegon can be identified thanks to the horn of plenty from his collar as Lord Merryweather (one of the lords in the books that was beheaded for doing so).
• Good job with the Cargyll twins. Having Erryk be Aegon's sworn sword and thus knowing his true nature is a very good idea.

Things that I didn't like:

• Everyone at court should have been expecting the king's death for years, at this point. Tyland not realizing what has happened when he is summoned at an untimely hour and joking about whether Dorne has been invaded is out of place.
• Very disappointed with the Green Council scene. I had lots of hopes for that scene, and I found it really weak. It was too short, too flat. Jasper Wylde is not allowed to cite any legal precedent, Tyland claims to have taken charge of the treasury when he is not master of coin, Orwyle acts impassible, and even Harrold Westerlings is surprisingly uncommitted (claiming that he "recognizes no authority but the king's" is a cheap opt-out).
• And I guess that now we finally know the purpose of the useless balls at the Council chambers. Such a dumb way to kill Beesbury, in a way that effectively makes his death an accident (Cole was only holding him by his shoulders, not the head). It would have been much more effective to having Cole cutting his throat.
• I didn't see the point on having Otto and Alicent clash over finding Aegon when they essentially want the same thing. Having this escalate to a fight between Criston and Erryk makes even less sense. I found that all of this was a fabricated conflict that led nowhere.
• Also, having the Silent Sisters take care of VIserys corpse was a bad choice. I understand that the writers want to make Alicent a little more sympathetic, but the image of Viserys rotting while all the greens are conspiring is a very powerful image and it's a waste to lose that.
• I hate everything with Mysaria. Her accent, her delivery, her holy cause in defense of the orphans, her network of spies with no purpose,... It's one of the few times where I hope that they depart from the source material, so that she can be dead and we're over with the character.
• The last scene with Rhaenys is once again within the sadly common trend of ending episodes with absurd bombastic shocks. I like the idea of having her trapped on KL, and having her flee while everyone was centered on the coronation was cool enough. But killing hundreds of commoners for no other purpose of giving a cold stare, is stupid.

Random things:

• The Septon at the crowning of Aegon doesn't seem the same that married Rhaenyra and Laenor. So one of them can't be Eustace.
• The opening credits continue to be as ill-designed and convoluted as ever, but they confirmed that Maelor hasn't been cut. We also see for the first time Aegon (represented by a naked woman holding an egg and a crown), Helaena (a spider), Aemond (a shapphire), Jaehaerys, Jaehaera, Aegon the younger and Viserys. And Alicent's sigil has been changed from the tower to the seven-pointed star.

Edited October 17, 2022 by The hairy bear

[Lord Varys]

That way to introduce Meleys was pretty bad, by the way. We should have seen her earlier.

Regarding the family tree:

Also, Daeron clearly is in the opening credits now, and Maelor, too. Three lines of blood go from Aegon and Helaena to Jaehaerys, Jaehaera, and Maelor. Unless I'm mistaken Maelor's crest in a head, and Jaehaerys' a six-fingered hand.

Got confused at first, but the finale two crests must be Aegon III and Viserys II, who we hadn't seen previously.

[IFR]

20 minutes ago, DMC said:

No.  As has been mentioned, plenty of Targaryens are reticent when it comes to kinslaying.  Or killing septons.  Or killing their enemies "dishonorably."  Or killing their enemies before they're entirely sure Rhaenyra wants them dead.

All right. So this is what Rhaenys does. She has a choice of reuniting with the Kingsguard who is aiding her, or someone else. That has some risk to it. Not much, but it is there. Or she can sneak into the dragon pit, relying on the stupidity of her adversaries that no guard has been warned about her, and further relying on her dragon to be able to break free of a structure that was created to contain them.

She succeeds and ends up killing dozens, maybe hundreds of people and injuring many more - men, women, and children - one of the blackest deeds in history since Maegar the Cruel, which will ensure that she is hated throughout the land. Then she faces her opponents, who are direct threats to her and her progeny, and she's reluctant to kill them because she wants to wait for Rhaenyra to give her the go-ahead? And she expects to then join forces with the Blacks in a fight to rule the realm, even though she has now become the most despised person in the realm?

Once again, if this is satisfying to you, that's fine. But it doesn't work for me.

Edit: I want to add that perhaps the luckiest part of Rhaenys' crazy plan is to not die from the several tons of concrete that she's bursting through.

Edited October 17, 2022 by IFR

[ShadowKitteh]

4 hours ago, teej6 said:

The lighting again is off. Everything is so dark. 

I don’t understand this so i just checked it for myself to see if I had the same problem but it’s gorgeous on every device I can watch it on: 

• Both TVs: A 4k, and a regular LED.
• iMac (early 2015 running Monterey)
• MacBook Air (late 2015 running Monterey)
• iPad Mini 4 on iOS 15.7

I don’t watch things on my iPhone so I didn’t check that.

Perhaps it’s your settings? 

Edited October 17, 2022 by ShadowKitteh

[briantw]

My parents were visiting this weekend and I got to watch the foot fetish jerk off scene with them.  That was fun. 

[DMC]

17 minutes ago, IFR said:

She succeeds and ends up killing dozens, maybe hundreds of people and injuring many more - men, women, and children - one of the blackest deeds in history since Maegar the Cruel, which will ensure that she is hated throughout the land.

It's laughable to think this would be considered one of the "blackest deeds" since Maegor in-universe.  The histories don't give two shits about the smallfolk either.  Indeed, it would only be considered a "black deed" if she DID roast the greens and septons.

[The hairy bear]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

So they made Beesbury 76, while in the book he is 80. Surely, for all their unreliability, the account given in F&B is not wrong about a lord's age. So then I wonder why the change. Is it really 129 AC in the show?

No, the show's Dance doesn't start in 129 AC... it starts later, so Beesbury has been rejuvenated by several years.

The first episode of HotD takes place in 112. The second, "six months later". The third, nearly three years after the second, and the fourth and the fifth the year after that, which would take us to 116 or 117.

The sixth episode (the first with the new cast) takes place 10 years later, and the seventh shortly afterwards. And in the last episode, it was six years after Rhaenys had seen Corlys. So in the show, the Dance starts at 132 or 133.

 

1 hour ago, Raksha 2014 said:

Rhaenys isn't a fool.  The High Septon of the Faith was standing in the line of fire next to the Targaryens.  If Rhaenys and her dragon had killed him (and I believe there was at least one other priest of the Faith there too), the Faith would have revolted against Driftmark and anyone else with whom Rhaenys was affiliated.  The dragons remaining in the Dragonpit of King's Landing probably would have been killed by the Faith months/years early.   Rhaenyra would not have been crowned in King's Landing by any Septon of the Faith unless she repudiated Rhaenys. 

I was about to mention Cersei and the Great Sept of Baelor here, but then I thought better. D&D's nonsenses are better forgotten.

45 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I will ask you a question:

Would it be easier to kill 100 strangers or your own family?

It's very distant family (sons of a cousin) that are executing people for not bending the knee to them (as she is doing).

 

[teej6]

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aemond basically consider usurping Aegon's place. Why should he care about toddlers?

And in context: They discuss the succession of King Viserys I, not the succession of Aegon II. Aegon's heir might be his son Jaehaerys if he names his heir, but Viserys' heir could easily enough be his second son rather than his grandson by his eldest son if people feel like it. Just as Baelon succeeded Aemon as heir ... and Jaehaerys apparently considered naming Vaegon his heir rather than a grandchild or great-grandchild.

Aemond actually says “I’m next in line”. That does not imply he’s usurping Aegon’s rights but his son’s. 

[teej6]

6 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Perhaps it’s your settings? 

I doubt it, but will check.

[teej6]

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And to be clear - Rhaenys doesn't kill those people. Her dragon does, simply by breaking through the boards and moving herself. That cannot be helped in context. It is very ugly, of course, but still different from intentional dragon attacks.

I doubt the small folk are going to care if the killing of 100s was intentional or not.

Edited October 17, 2022 by teej6

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

20 minutes ago, briantw said:

My parents were visiting this weekend and I got to watch the foot fetish jerk off scene with them.  That was fun. 

It's a family show, after all. 

[DMC]

27 minutes ago, briantw said:

My parents were visiting this weekend and I got to watch the foot fetish jerk off scene with them.  That was fun. 

If I saw that scene with my mom I'm pretty sure she wouldn't let me watch the show anymore until I'm old enough.

[Rockroi]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

If I saw that scene with my mom I'm pretty sure she wouldn't let me watch the show anymore until I'm old enough.

When... when you're 47?

[DMC]

Just now, Rockroi said:

When... when you're 47?

At least!

[The hairy bear]

I wonder if they plan to use Rhaenys' refusal to kill all the greens at the Dragonpit as a motivation for her risky flight to Rook's Nest next season. If Corlys blames her for not taking the chance to end the war before started, and after Luke and other fatalities start to pile up, she may decide to atone her fault by going solo to defend the black cause.

[BlackLightning]

All of the people complaining about Princess Rhaenys' escape atop Meleys are being weird.

It's also strange that you guys will complete ignore the expressly evil, completely self-interested, country-destabilizing shenanigans of Larys to complain about Rhaenys' accidental killing of hundreds (if not a thousand) innocent bystanders. Keep in mind that he has also killed a lot of people too...and for what? So that he can supplant Mysaria as the Iron Throne's chief spymaster? So that he can jack himself off to the sight of Alicent's feet?

I'm sorry but I don't feel that bad for the smallfolk who were killed or injured in the process. I don't think they deserved it, but Rhaenys was being wrongfully held prisoner in an unlawful coup and patently obvious power grab. She had a right to set herself free...same as Arya, same as Jon, same as Daenerys.

It's do or die, kill or be killed.

Should she have asked (again) to be allowed to go home? Should she have patiently waited in her room like Sansa? Should she have cowered beneath the Dragonpit and waited until some sign that everyone had left. Even if they did allow her to go home to Driftmark no strings attached, they wouldn't have allowed her to take Meleys...and dragons are priceless. Not to mention that Rhaenys is bonded to Meleys.

Helaena tried to tell them. The beast beneath the boards was Meleys.

Simply a matter of wrong place, wrong time. Nothing more.

Plus, it's clear foreshadowing for 

Spoiler

the storming of the Dragonpit

 

Rhaenys was both wise and merciful for not killing all of the Greens on the dais. It was the right decision to make (at the time) even though she -- and all of the other Blacks -- will soon come to regret it.

In the end, Otto, Alicent and Criston's Aegon's big day was more or less ruined. From coronation to bloodbath.

Edited October 17, 2022 by BlackLightning

[Rockroi]

1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

All of the people complaining about Princess Rhaenys' escape atop Meleys are being weird.

It's also strange that you guys will complete ignore the expressly evil, completely self-interested, country-destabilizing shenanigans of Larys to complain about Rhaenys' accidental killing of hundreds (if not a thousand) innocent bystanders.

I find it weird that you think that was an "accident."  There is a difference between wanton/reckless behavior and an accident.  She knew or should have known that if she breaks through a the floor that thousands of people are standing on with a  dragon... people are going to die.  And she killed them.  Its either murder or manslaughter.  Either way, she's terrible for doing that and any attempt to mitigate it is "whataboutism." 

And btw - many of us thought Larys was a shit for killing his own brother and father and said so.  

4 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

but Rhaenys was being wrongfully held prisoner in an unlawful coup and patently obvious power grab.

No, no- its perfectly reasonable when you escape to kill hundreds of people.  Its totally cool.  

6 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

It's do or die, kill or be killed.

See, if that was the end of it - if she was really that way - then I would be okay with it.  I would get that she would need to escape.  

But she then faces down the enemy and ... what?  She has a chance to end the whole war, save all her grandchildren and ensure her and her family's safety. She does not "kill or be killed" 

20 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Rhaenys was both wise and merciful for not killing all of the Greens on the dais. It was the right decision to make (at the time) even though she -- and all of the other Blacks -- will soon come to regret it.

So which is it?  Is she "kill or be killed" or is she wise and merciful (who had just killed like 150 innocent people)?  You can have one or the other, but not both.

I think the show wanted it to be both.  And that's bad storytelling.  

[C.T. Phipps]

7 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

 So which is it?  Is she "kill or be killed" or is she wise and merciful (who had just killed like 150 innocent people)?  You can have one or the other, but not both.

I think the show wanted it to be both.  And that's bad storytelling.  

I feel like the problem of this scene will be resolved next episode and the rest of the series.

This isn't Frodo sparing Gollum and mercy will magically make things better.

Rhaenys showed mercy to her enemies and it will royally fuck her and her family over. This is a mistake and we're going to see its consequences.

[ShadowKitteh]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

And how is he Aegon's heir if Aegon already has a son?

I took it as Aemond clearly threatening to kill Aegon’s kids.