[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion

[nara]

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if he wasn't in there, we can hope he and other people will cite this incident as part of the reasons why the dragons have to die. The Shepherd's entire narrative is that the monsters are demons who don't protect anyone. They all of the go, not just Rhaenyra's, but Aegon's as well. And showing how dangerous them are by arbitrarily trampling people is pretty good, actually.

Good point. Your post reminded me of the time Drogon killed that child. Until then, Dragons were cool, but that incident made reality set in.

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, MisbornHeir said:

Rhaenyra's presence at Rook's Rest and return to Dragonstone without Rhaenys will inflame tensions between her and Corlys even more than it did in Fire and Blood.

Could be, although I'm not sure they should or will go with that particular plotline. There are other ways to have friction in the Black camp than the guy whining about his wife's death in battle. Don't think he would be the type for this in the show, anyway, considering how little he cared for Laena's death in the show.

[TormundsWoman]

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

No I haven't watched it yet, I'm still holding out. 

But I wasn't bitching. Peasants don't matter and I don't like them anyways. They supported Cersei as she bombed the sept, they cheered for Ned's execution, they are sexist, they are homophobic. They are like the plebs from Rome, to weak and stupid to protect themselves and too spoiled and rotten to see how their own prosperity has come at the expense of everyone else. 

To my ears your bitching. Nothing wrong with it, that’s why there’s a forum! I’m bitching about other things. I just prefer to do it after I’ve seen the thing  

[Adaneth]

24 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Dany in Qarth was ridiculous, and Porne was a mess, and the idea that Sansa would marry Ramsay was absurd, but I only turned against it after watching Season 7, with its teleportation, Tyrion’s becoming a moron, Cersei facing no consequences for blowing up the Sept, and the general silliness.

Then came Season 8.

I had to read that twice, to connect the dots. 

I never heard that term before for Dorne. Fitting. lol

[Ran]

Basically, when George wrote AFFC, he wanted to do a parallel with Jaime the Kingslayer, so Criston Cole became the Kingmaker, but he had no real idea of what that meant. Then when he actually wrote the Dance... well, he didn't come up with some central role for him, really, so he's the Kingmaker because of putting the crown on Aegon's head more than anything, and yes, then that detail from Eustace that claims he was pivotal in convincing Aegon, which most people would not have known contemporaneously.

It's fine, honestly. Putting the crown on Aegon's head is a literal act of king making. But I suspect, way back in AFfC when George had Arianne and Arys talking about the Kingmaker, he envisioned a more significant role for him in some nebulous way.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

One more time… was Otto planning to set aside Alicent if he held to her declared plan to support Rhaenyra as Queen?  If they were planning without Alicent’s knowledge isn’t that strongly implied?

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I just love the Hightower et al.'s logic in the show. "If Rhaenyra becomes queen, there will be war, so we must start a war to prevent that from happening." They'd fit well here in the US.

I think the eye-opening moment for Alicent regarding the true nature of her father was the point where he insisted they do exactly the kind of thing he insisted Rhaenyra would do to Alicent's children. There she understood that he was the warmonger and, to a point, the monster, not Rhaenyra. The narrative he used to manipulate her so far did break down there.

One hopes they do something with the rift between the two of them, with Alicent possibly helping Aegon to oust Otto as Hand and/or at least suggesting he replace him with Criston Cole.

Now Criston seems to be Alicent's man right now, but as we saw back in episode 7, he will side with the king rather than the queen if pushed. So Alicent might be able to rely on Criston to get rid of her father, but if King Aegon II starts to rule in his own right, giving commands, chances are that Criston will stand with him.

I imagine in the show the Rook's Rest plan will actually be Aemond's brainchild. He will come up with the idea to use Vhagar there, and he will hope or even intend to get Aegon killed in 'an accident'. The book doesn't elaborate on the details, but one imagines that Vhagar could have targeted Meleys without downing Sunfyre. And while it is certainly possible that Meleys' fires burned Aegon, it could also have been Vhagar's flame.

Criston's loyalty towards Alicent will make him somewhat reluctant to risk the life of the king, but Aegon will likely be very keen to show his mettle in battle.

[TormundsWoman]

50 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

And this is my problem as well- this is not in-character for a woman who really was always playing for keeps.

I’m still reading Rockroi!!!

Anyway I just wanted to say that I’m definitely not watching the same show or even reading the same book!

Just when exactly did we see her doing that till now? “Always Playing for keeps” meaning hasn’t changed I’m assuming.

To my knowledge so far show and book wise Rhaenys had 2 opportunities to “rally the realm” and force a civil war in her own name. Maybe make some vicious move in her own interest before, when she knew there might actually be a chance, before the Great Council and what she actually  did was bribe and bought votes and take her toys and go to Driftmark when the decision to crown Viserys over her was pronounced!

Basically Until now she has done absolutely nothing to show her “playing for keeps” supposed characteristics!
 

I mean I’m literally reading the references from Fire and Blood and she has shown absolutely no offensive aggressive behavior to the level you ask her to, not even when she WAS fighting for her own claim to the throne. I’m probably missing something but still that’s a very powerful characteristic you’re heaping on her. And you’re asking her to torch “in character” a bunch of her own family as a first act of her playing for keeps?! On Rhaenyra’s behalf no less… who she thinks killed show Laenor?

I’m not sure how that makes sense in show context. But it obviously makes to many of posters here the way I’m reading the thread so I suppose that’s a thing.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, Cole is basically just 'the Kingmaker' because he puts the crown on Aegon's head. He didn't do anything else of note.

Wasn't he the one who convinced Aegon to become king by saying that Rhaenyra would kill him otherwise? HoTD gave that speech to Alicent.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[butterweedstrover]

12 minutes ago, TormundsWoman said:

To my ears your bitching. Nothing wrong with it, that’s why there’s a forum! I’m bitching about other things. I just prefer to do it after I’ve seen the thing  

I really want to give something positive about this episode to off-set my unrelenting negativity. It can be obnoxious for other people but I enjoy the opportunity to vent or at least magnify something I think is being unduly ignored.  

However, whilst I haven't watch it yet (and I'm still reluctant) the stuff people having being saying about it on this thread even (especially) the positives give me the feeling this episode is going to be horrendous. 

[butterweedstrover]

35 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I just love the Hightower et al.'s logic in the show. "If Rhaenyra becomes queen, there will be war, so we must start a war to prevent that from happening." They'd fit well here in the US.

Again, I haven't watched the episode. 

But conceptually that could make sense. War is coming so we have to strike first and take the advantage. 

Like, technically Germany triggered the larger scale war in 1914, but someone was about to do it so it's better to take the lead early on and hope for a better outcome. 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

One more time… was Otto planning to set aside Alicent if he held to her declared plan to support Rhaenyra as Queen?  If they were planning without Alicent’s knowledge isn’t that strongly implied?

What do you mean by 'setting aside Alicent'? Once Viserys is dead she no longer has any semi-official role in the government. She is just queen dowager.

Otto clearly feared that there would be no coup if Alicent and Rhaenyra honestly reconciled. Her (public) support of her son is key to the success of the entire thing. Without her, they might not even be able to convince Aegon to accept the crown.

Also, of course, with a reconciliation between the women Rhaenyra and her family might move back to court and they would all live there together.

The plans of Otto and his little cronies clearly depended on them running the government and on Rhaenyra and her family being on Dragonstone when the king finally died.

We can be pretty sure that there wouldn't have been a coup in the show had Alicent shut it down during the council session. Whilst Otto and his cronies might have ganged up on her, Westerling and Criston would have stood with Alicent ... and they had the blades. Otto was the Hand and Alicent's father, so he could technically try to order her about, but one gets the feeling that it would have ended like Rogar Baratheon vs. Alyssa Velaryon there, not like Tywin vs. Cersei regarding the issue of her remarriage.

One imagines that Otto would have lost his pin and would have escorted to his chambers, while the Grand Maester would have sent a letter to Rhaenyra.

[Ingelheim]

Rewatching the episode I'm more convinced now than before that they intend to make Aemond contend for the Iron Throne against his brother, probably behind his back and with Cole's help.

There are three different occasions in which they have Aemond think about it; first when they are looking for Aegon (the whole "I'm better prepared and ready than him" speech), later when they found him and Aegon asks him for leave (they both stare at each other thinking about it, then Cole intervenes), and the third is at the coronation itself when Aemond is staring at him suspiciously angry and disappointed.

Alongside the weird connection with her sister they've been hinting at for 3 episodes now, they are probably going to expand his role as Regent.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Ingelheim

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What do you mean by 'setting aside Alicent'? Once Viserys is dead she no longer has any semi-official role in the government. She is just queen dowager.

Otto clearly feared that there would be no coup if Alicent and Rhaenyra honestly reconciled. Her (public) support of her son is key to the success of the entire thing. Without her, they might not even be able to convince Aegon to accept the crown.

Also, of course, with a reconciliation between the women Rhaenyra and her family might move back to court and they would all live there together.

The plans of Otto and his little cronies clearly depended on them running the government and on Rhaenyra and her family being on Dragonstone when the king finally died.

We can be pretty sure that there wouldn't have been a coup in the show had Alicent shut it down during the council session. Whilst Otto and his cronies might have ganged up on her, Westerling and Criston would have stood with Alicent ... and they had the blades. Otto was the Hand and Alicent's father, so he could technically try to order her about, but one gets the feeling that it would have ended like Rogar Baratheon vs. Alyssa Velaryon there, not like Tywin vs. Cersei regarding the issue of her remarriage.

One imagines that Otto would have lost his pin and would have escorted to his chambers, while the Grand Maester would have sent a letter to Rhaenyra.

My thought was Alicent locked away while Otto spoke as Hand claiming she was grieving for her husband.  Otto is competent.  He could have taken out both Cole and Westerling and put his people in place while he declared “Viserys’ deathbed desire for Aegon to be King.”

If they had been planning without Alicent… I suspect that’s how that would have played out.  He altered his plans when he learned Alicent would support Aegon as king.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Adaneth]

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Giving Rhaenyra a reason why she thinks she should be queen is not bad. I mean, sure enough, they could create a female character so detached from reality (and untouched from the patriarchal system she grew up in) that she would think she is destined for the throne and the perfect ruler since she was a very small child.

But that would be hard to sell in this context, being almost comical.

Rhaenyra clearly wants the throne, but she never grew up with the same certainty as a male Heir Apparent would have. Not in the show and not in the book (where her father threatened to disinherit her when she refused to marry Laenor Velaryon).

Why is it comical? She doesn't need another reason in the books and she's pretty ambitious. There are also real cases in History like her, which George clearly has taken from. A woman wanting to rule and be the exception? Wanting to break with the tradition, because she is the first born child of the king and sees the act of passing her over, by her own father no less, as unjust? What's "hard sell" about it?

In my view, the prophecy doesn't make it more credible or strengthen her motivations. The opposite in fact. It takes away from her agency. Her own desires and ideas. It also takes away from her the accountability, or is at risk of, because anything she might do from now on, the tendency would be to justify her because "After all, it's for the greater good", in the eye of the viewer. Although, it's too soon for that to tell right now, I admit. We'll have to wait and see where they go with her.

But the uncertainties you mentioned, are enough good material to work on her struggle and vulnerabilities that she might need to overcome. In my mind, that makes for a good story. She doesn't need a prophecy as motivation, or become her driving force.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Wasn't he the one who convinced Aegon to become king by saying that Rhaenyra would kill him otherwise? HoTD gave that speech to Alicent.

Yeah, but we got talk like that earlier, and the Aegon they showed wouldn't be convinced by talk like that, anyway.

Really enjoyed their Aegon, by the way. That's how you set up a guy who will be drunk on power. And not having desiring the throne at all adds much more tragedy to his later injuries and suffering.

2 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Rewatching the episode I'm more convinced now than before that they intend to make Aemond contend for the Iron Throne against his brother, probably behind his back and with Cole's help.

There are three different occasions in which they have Aemond for it; first when they are looking for Aemon (the whole "I'm better prepared and ready than him" speech), later when they found him and Aegon asks him for leave (they both stare at each other thinking about it, then Cole intervenes), and the third is at the coronation itself when Aemond is staring at him suspiciously anrgy and disappointed.

Alongside the weird connection with her sister they've been hinting at for 3 episodes now, they are probably going to expand his role as Regent.

I agree with that, although one has to consider that in light of what Aegon actually does during his early reign it might actually be the brothers grow very close. Aegon will be a warmonger who runs amok, and one imagines that this is exactly what Aemond would like to do, too. At least following Blood and Cheese. I've a very strong feeling KL scenes in season 2 will start with Aegon throwing that party for Aemond to celebrate the death of Luke.

Although as I said, they might have Rook's Rest as Aemond's brainchild and Aegon's injuries and near death as something Meleys isn't completely responsible for. Aemond definitely will seize the regency because he thinks he is best suited to rule, possibly pushing aside his mother in the process of it. Alicent may think she should rule as Queen Regent.

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

My thought was Alicent locked away while Otto spoke as Hand claiming she was grieving for her husband.  Otto is competent.  He could have taken out both Cole and Westerling and put his people in place while he declared “Viserys’ deathbed desire for Aegon to be King.”

If they had been planning without Alicent… I suspect that’s how that would have played out.  He altered his plans when he learned Alicent would support Aegon as king.

He may have thought about something like that when Alicent told him in private about Viserys' death ... before she added that she wanted Aegon to be king.

At the council there wouldn't have been much chance for her being arrested due to the blades situation.

But Viserys would have had to live a while longer for Rhaenyra and Alicent to properly reconcile. At that point one imagines Otto would have still been able to persuade Alicent to crown Aegon. Although he would have to do it gently and in private and without giving away he and his cronies had already made concrete plans for a coup.

[Adaneth]

41 minutes ago, nara said:

Good point. Your post reminded me of the time Drogon killed that child. Until then, Dragons were cool, but that incident made reality set in.

Until the next "cool" scene with the Dragons. 

[teej6]

6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

My thought was Alicent locked away while Otto spoke as Hand claiming she was grieving for her husband.  Otto is competent.  He could have taken out both Cole and Westerling and put his people in place while he declared “Viserys’ deathbed desire for Aegon to be King.”

If they had been planning without Alicent… I suspect that’s how that would have played out.  He altered his plans when he learned Alicent would support Aegon as king.

I agree. Otto should have had a contingency plan if there was even a slight chance that Alicent would not join them in the coup. I mean otherwise the man comes across as a complete moron. His life’s work and ambitions all thrown away because his daughter that morning decided to fight for her friend’s rights.

This is why Alicent not knowing about the coup in advance doesn’t make much sense. How was Otto going to implement this coup if Alicent disagreed with him? What would have been his contingency plan? Lock his daughter and the King’s mother in her chambers? 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Adaneth said:

Why is it comical? She doesn't need another reason in the books and she's pretty ambitious. There are also real cases in History like her, which George clearly has taken from. A woman wanting to rule and be the exception? Wanting to break with the tradition, because she is the first born child of the king and sees the act of passing her over, by her own father no less, as unjust? What's "hard sell" about it?

The book has Rhaenyra installed as Heir Apparent as a child - a child that had even before been the favorite of her royal parents and the entire court.

The Rhaenyra they gave us wasn't this spoilt nor this popular with everybody.

Yes, with such a Rhaenyra this attitude could have made more sense ... but even in the book it is hard to swallow that she apparently never expected a coup or a succession war despite the fact that her father and Alicent had three sons.

The idea that a woman in that setting would just think it was her right to rule and that nobody could or would touch it makes little sense. Especially since her father the king did touch it once when he forced her to marry, and she felt the sting of that very much. Book Rhaenyra knows that only her father's whim made her heir ... and that he could take it away.

Show Rhaenyra also wants the throne, but as last week's episode shows - and book Rhaenyra kind of shows, too - she doesn't want the throne if it means the life of her children. She doesn't want the throne no matter what. That notion she only develops after Jace's death in the book. Prior to that, her court and children and husband effectively keep her cause alive, while she whines in her bedchamber.

The prophecy plot gives her a reason why she should pursue the throne even if it means war and death. It does add complexity to something that's just a pointless succession war.

Spoiler

The leaks claimed that the prophecy does in fact cause Rhaenyra to consider accepting Aegon's terms when they are delivered, because she feels it is their duty to keep the Targaryens and the Realm united. Aegon has been crowned, so she would ruin her father's work if she were to challenge him.

 

[C.T. Phipps]

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think the eye-opening moment for Alicent regarding the true nature of her father was the point where he insisted they do exactly the kind of thing he insisted Rhaenyra would do to Alicent's children. There she understood that he was the warmonger and, to a point, the monster, not Rhaenyra. The narrative he used to manipulate her so far did break down there.

Sadly, it makes Alicent look dumb because it means in 20 years, she's never considered that in all the time her father said that Rhaenyra was going to murder her children as a threat to their reign that it would never be a case of it being in the same in reverse.

Are we really expected to believe Alicent was so dismissive of Rhaenyra's bastards, Daemon, and their trueborn children that she never believed they would not be a threat to Aegon II?

It makes her look the fool.