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[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion


Ran
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3 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I agree. Otto should have had a contingency plan if there was even a slight chance that Alicent would not join them in the coup. I mean otherwise the man comes across as a complete moron. His life’s work and ambitions all thrown away because his daughter that morning decided to fight for her friend’s rights.

This is why Alicent not knowing about the coup in advance doesn’t make much sense. How was Otto going to implement this coup if Alicent disagreed with him? What would have been his contingency plan? Lock his daughter and the King’s mother in her chambers? 

Up until episode 8 Otto would have been very sure Alicent would go along with their plans. Keeping her out of it also makes sense, though, since she is a woman, the wife of the king, and Rhaenyra's old friend. Otto only tells his daughter what she needs to know, anyway, so it isn't surprising that he would keep this from her, too.

He is the Hand, after all, the guy who actually rules. The queen just stands there and nods gravely.

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So why is the roof of the dragon pit so much sturdier than the floor? I still enjoyed the scene, but that's the kind of thing that's going to hurt this show in the long run. That and that stupid fucking catspaw dagger...

 

This episode was for me the loosest treatment of the source material. I believe our gracious hosts will (or have - I haven't seen if their recap is up yet or not) go over all of the various differences, but I'm sure it will be one of their longer videos. I don't understand Westerling (Talisa?) being around still as the Kingsguard LC but I can't help but suspect that it's just so that Cole can kill him - and look ever more villainous in the process. I didn't really understand the Alicent's agents vs Otto's agents thing there, but it was an excellent introduction to the Cargills and an interesting exploration of the depravity of Westeros' new king.  So both Alicent and Otto wanted to speak to Aegon first, Alicent to tell him to merciful with Rhaenyra and Otto to tell him to have her locked up and done away with post haste? I don't understand why this required kingsgaurds fighting each other in the streets. It's hardly a conversation that couldn't have been had with Alicent Otto and Aegon all in attendance.

What do people think of Aemond's ambition?  I thought it was just to liken him a little more to Daemon but with Aegon's heirs already introduced it came across as kind of gross. An unnecessary and ultimately irrelevant conversation to pass the time during an unnecessary and ultimately irrelevant chase, in my eye.

Overall I enjoyed this episode but I am a little wary of some of the changes they made and of some of the stuff they injected - the guy playing Larys Strong was creepy enough before we see him pounding off over the Queen's feet. I don't know what that adds to either character. Are we to infer that this sort of meeting took place during the King's lifetime? Not a good look there Ally.  There is a huge blind spot in the story of the Dance around Larys Strong and his motivations. Considering his impact on the history of Westeros I hope they come up with something more than 'well he was a perv' to fill out the picture.

Edited by Aejohn the Conqueroo
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2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Sadly, it makes Alicent look dumb because it means in 20 years, she's never considered that in all the time her father said that Rhaenyra was going to murder her children as a threat to their reign that it would never be a case of it being in the same in reverse.

Are we really expected to believe Alicent was so dismissive of Rhaenyra's bastards, Daemon, and their trueborn children that she never believed they would not be a threat to Aegon II?

It makes her look the fool.

You don't have to murder people to neutralize them. The Great Council didn't murder Rhaenys or her children. Alicent may have believed that if Viserys changed the succession as she wanted him to, if Aegon was crowned king and accepted by as many lords as Viserys I was back when the Great Council supported him, that Rhaenyra and her family would see reason.

That's what she still hopes, because the woman is still her old friend.

This dichotomy that you have to murder a rival claimant to ensure they do not become a danger is a self-fulfilling prophecy, basically. If you believe it to be true it will become true.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Up until episode 8 Otto would have been very sure Alicent would go along with their plans. Keeping her out of it also makes sense, though, since she is a woman, the wife of the king, and Rhaenyra's old friend. Otto only tells his daughter what she needs to know, anyway, so it isn't surprising that he would keep this from her, too.

He is the Hand, after all, the guy who actually rules. The queen just stands there and nods gravely.

I mean, Otto is actually fucking terrible at this.

If not for Alicent carrying water for him, he never would have gotten close to being in a position of power again. He's too obvious in his scheming and too quick to violence.

Larys and Alicent are both leagues above him.

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Just now, Lord Varys said:

Up until episode 8 Otto would have been very sure Alicent would go along with their plans. Keeping her out of it also makes sense, though, since she is a woman, the wife of the king, and Rhaenyra's old friend. Otto only tells his daughter what she needs to know, anyway, so it isn't surprising that he would keep this from her, too.

He is the Hand, after all, the guy who actually rules. The queen just stands there and nods gravely.

To add on, the only actions she has taken 'on a whim" have been for the sake of her children/family and overall protecting her family. Otto's earlier commendation for the spirit Alicent has to 'win the ugly game' only bolsters his confidence in the future enactment of his machinations to seat Aegon the Elder as king. He doesn't have reason to believe she would take any action that would interfere with Otto, "Mine own father does not know the language of girls either" (episode 2). 

As nearsighted Otto's understanding of women (Alicent in particular) in relation to their station and its expected duties, he's neither fool or zealous enough to adapt his plans accordingly instead of reinforcing his own hierarchical values. The Westerosi patriarchy serves Otto well without a doubt, but he is a realist at heart. So pragmatic that he was willing to be devoured by Caraxes to begin a war between Daemon and the crown. And that raw pragmatism is which his ambition is driven upon.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You don't have to murder people to neutralize them. The Great Council didn't murder Rhaenys or her children. Alicent may have believed that if Viserys changed the succession as she wanted him to, if Aegon was crowned king and accepted by as many lords as Viserys I was back when the Great Council supported him, that Rhaenyra and her family would see reason.

That's what she still hopes, because the woman is still her old friend.

This dichotomy that you have to murder a rival claimant to ensure they do not become a danger is a self-fulfilling prophecy, basically. If you believe it to be true it will become true.

Any of that logic would apply to Rhaenyra as well.

Which means that she just believed Rhaenyra was THAT terrible of a person compared to her side.

Which apparently the show wants her to believe.

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Re: Rhaenys, it's worth considering something Eve Best says in this interview with Sean T. Collins (of The Boiled Leather podcast and Feast-Dance combined reading):

Quote

It’s why she would have made such a great leader. She had, in that moment, all the power. Yet she has respect for Alicent as a woman and a mother. They understand being in the grip of other people who might torch them. They know the only right choice is not to go there. Furthermore, it’s the intelligent choice, on her part, not to torch a whole bunch of innocent people in the room. What’s to be gained? In the end, it’s not her battle.

A lot of people have read her as now having made the choice to be on the side of the Blacks... but things make a lot more sense, in a way, if she has in fact only acted for the freedom of herself and her dragon, and then chooses to essentially remain neutral by leaving the Greens to live and departing King's Landing, presumably to Driftmark to reunite with the Sea Snake and consult with him.

The trailer for next episode adds some circumstancial support for this

Spoiler

since she says the Greens are coming for Rhaenyra, not for "us". She does not see herself, at that time, as being on Rhaenyra's side I think.

 

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Up until episode 8 Otto would have been very sure Alicent would go along with their plans. Keeping her out of it also makes sense, though, since she is a woman, the wife of the king, and Rhaenyra's old friend. Otto only tells his daughter what she needs to know, anyway, so it isn't surprising that he would keep this from her, too.

He is the Hand, after all, the guy who actually rules. The queen just stands there and nods gravely.

But that’s not the Alicent projected until Ep 8. She was part of the small council in the Ep and it seemed to me the rest of the council was taking her direction, at least in the council chamber. She definitely had a voice. And in the last episode, had she not gone along, the coup would not have happened. You said it yourself, there would have been no coup if Alicent didn’t go along with the conspiracy. so what was Otto’s plan B?

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Just now, C.T. Phipps said:

Any of that logic would apply to Rhaenyra as well.

Which means that she just believed Rhaenyra was THAT terrible of a person compared to her side.

Which apparently the show wants her to believe.

Rhaenyra believes that methods brought on with blood will justify the eventual bloodless end (led by her as queen).

Alicent has always performed her duty first and foremost. The one time she didn't (or believed it aligned with her personal interests) was when she took Rhaenyra at her word and it cost her father's position. To put her duty prescribed by station first and in turn to her family (as laid out by the seven) is paramount and that includes employing the morality demanded by those allegiances. Namely the morality of the mother, whose mercy she desires to give to Rhaenyra and her family. Political ambitions and Machiavellianism do NOT trump her commitment to her faith/duty.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The book has Rhaenyra installed as Heir Apparent as a child - a child that had even before been the favorite of her royal parents and the entire court.

The Rhaenyra they gave us wasn't this spoilt nor this popular with everybody.

Yes, with such a Rhaenyra this attitude could have made more sense ... but even in the book it is hard to swallow that she apparently never expected a coup or a succession war despite the fact that her father and Alicent had three sons.

The idea that a woman in that setting would just think it was her right to rule and that nobody could or would touch it makes little sense. Especially since her father the king did touch it once when he forced her to marry, and she felt the sting of that very much. Book Rhaenyra knows that only her father's whim made her heir ... and that he could take it away.

Show Rhaenyra also wants the throne, but as last week's episode shows - and book Rhaenyra kind of shows, too - she doesn't want the throne if it means the life of her children. She doesn't want the throne no matter what. That notion she only develops after Jace's death in the book. Prior to that, her court and children and husband effectively keep her cause alive, while she whines in her bedchamber.

The prophecy plot gives her a reason why she should pursue the throne even if it means war and death. It does add complexity to something that's just a pointless succession war.

  Hide contents

The leaks claimed that the prophecy does in fact cause Rhaenyra to consider accepting Aegon's terms when they are delivered, because she feels it is their duty to keep the Targaryens and the Realm united. Aegon has been crowned, so she would ruin her father's work if she were to challenge him.

 

No, no. I don't mean she shouldn't expect a coup. Far from it. 

She would be completely delusional, if she were to believe that nobody would challenge her claim. Whether it's the show or book. Though the books are slightly different matter. Again, to go back to real History, challenging claims was pretty common. Between male heirs, so imagine challenging a female.

I was strictly ref. to her desires, feelings, idea, righteousness (whatever we want to call it) that she should be the next in line, and sit on the throne. Kinda like the story of Matilda. 

I don't know the leaks. Is there a thread for them? I'm curious about Daemon, Nettles and Aemond. 

I like the TPTWP thing even less (if it was even possible), after reading that leak. :rolleyes: Don't care for it at all.

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7 minutes ago, teej6 said:

But that’s not the Alicent projected until Ep 8. She was part of the small council in the Ep and it seemed to me the rest of the council was taking her direction, at least in the council chamber. She definitely had a voice. And in the last episode, had she not gone along, the coup would not have happened. You said it yourself, there would have been no coup if Alicent didn’t go along with the conspiracy. so what was Otto’s plan B?

Likely to use Alicent's wishes to negotiate and treat with Rhaenyra's faction to manuever Aegon the Elder as de-facto King and if needed instigate violence from the Blacks/their supporters to force a succession war. He does subscribe to warfare with quills and ravens after all.

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

I just love the Hightower et al.'s logic in the show. "If Rhaenyra becomes queen, there will be war, so we must start a war to prevent that from happening." They'd fit well here in the US.

As I said a few weeks ago, it's the Bush doctrine on steroids.

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15 minutes ago, Ran said:

Re: Rhaenys, it's worth considering something Eve Best says in this interview with Sean T. Collins (of The Boiled Leather podcast and Feast-Dance combined reading):

A lot of people have read her as now having made the choice to be on the side of the Blacks... but things make a lot more sense, in a way, if she has in fact only acted for the freedom of herself and her dragon, and then chooses to essentially remain neutral by leaving the Greens to live and departing King's Landing, presumably to Driftmark to reunite with the Sea Snake and consult with him.

The trailer for next episode adds some circumstancial support for this

  Hide contents

since she says the Greens are coming for Rhaenyra, not for "us". She does not see herself, at that time, as being on Rhaenyra's side I think.

 

I thought she made her choice when she sided with Rhaenyra in the previous episode, and accepted the marriage proposals.

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6 minutes ago, Adaneth said:

I thought she made her choice when she sided with Rhaenyra in the previous episode, and accepted the marriage proposals.

Apparently not when it came to deciding in an open war.

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A few quick thoughts:

Shouldn't Caswell have been beheaded given his station and the fact he was taken specifically to the King's Justice? A head on a spike makes more sense to me than a lord randomly hanging in an open hallway, which to me looks like something an edgy teen would think up.

I'm probably overthinking this but Aegon playing with the dagger reminded me of the fact that when GRRM gave Amok the details for him he said that Aegon should be depicted testing a dagger against his finger whilst not looking the part of a warrior. Likewise, I find it interesting that when Aegon point-blank asks his mother if she loves him she doesn't actually say "yes" (though the way she said "imbecile" was weird). I will say that while all the sources agree Aegon slept around (and thus sired bastards) I was a bit disappointed they went with Mushroom's version of events. To me, Aegon being found in the bed of a paramour (the daughter of a rich merchant who is explicitly not a child) would have gotten Aegon's bad habits across without making him too dark.

I. Hate. Mysaria. Its not just the atrocious accent or the fact that she just randomly appears to do whatever the plot requires of her but also the plain fact that they took one of the few truly villainous females (on the Black side no less!) and turned her into a literal social justice warrior. This is a woman who in the books was called "the White Worm" and "Lady Misery" by her enemies, arranged Blood & Cheese, served as Mistress of Whisperers (unofficially) not unlike Tyanna of the Tower, and was (after her gruesome death) thought of in the same light as the future Bloodraven. Yet in this episode she mouths off to Otto in a way that reminds me of GRRM complaining about how in RL, unlike most fantasy, the spunky peasant girl would get raped for giving the prince a piece of her mind.

I prefer the book version of the Small Council scene. This version just lacks a certain something, which might stem in part from the fact Alicent is a reactor instead of an instigator as well as the fact the small council is already united behind Aegon, which removes not only quite a bit of politicking (looking up who voted for who in the GC of 101, sending letters out to their supporters, etc.) but also character establishment (Ironrod is introduced speaking of law, tradition, custom, and history, Cole focuses almost exclusively on Rhaenyra and Laenor's sexuality, Otto focuses on Daemon, Alicent on her fear for her children as well as the bastardy of Rhaenyra's sons, Tyland brings up that many of those who swore oaths to defend Rhaenyra's rights are dead and that he for example did not because he was a child at the time, Orwyle being the new guy is just trying to survive, and Larys for all we know was playing both sides as both Daemon's friend on the small council and the one most responsible for Rhaenyra's downfall after Tyland, who gets that honor in Gyldayn's estimate). Also, if they were going to have Beesbury's death be an accident, wouldn't something like Criston forcing him back in his chair causing his neck to snap make more sense? And why does no one, including Cole as well as Alicent, react to his death? Alicent was horrified when Larys told her he killed his family for her and she looks equally disturbed when Larys offers to deprive Luke of an eye. As for Cole, he tried to commit suicide after murdering Lonmouth, a random guy he didn't know, so shouldn't he at least show some emotion after accidentally murdering an old man who he's probably known for a long time at this point? I guess what I'm trying to say is, in part because of the changes they made to the small council scene, Beesbury's death comes off as rather flat and, in light of the gratuitous violence displayed in prior episodes, almost comedic, seeing as everyone continues talking as if there isn't a corpse cooling in the room.

I'm glad they didn't go with Alicent plotting while her husband's body was left to rot. While her exact feelings for Viserys are unknown to us in the books I do think it wouldn't have made sense in the show given the genuine affection she displays (not to mention that would make her pretty unlikeable and Alicent already faces an uphill battle what with TPATQ + TRP + TWOIAF + F & B giving the fandom years to develop its idea of "the evil stepmother/gold digger/conniving bitch Helicent who is most to blame for the Dance" before she even appeared on screen in the first episode).

Edited by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back
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2 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

No mention of Daeron in this episode either, which is going to make his introduction in S2 feel really f*cking weird. "Hello everyone, I'm the prince NOBODY ever talked about in like 20 years!"

Imagine if he never actually appears even though GRRM said he would. 

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