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[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion


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10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In episode 6 Alicent does have a seat on the council along with Rhaenyra. There she is there as an advisor since Viserys apparently wanted this. In episode 8 she is there as representative of the king who no longer can attend - that's why she sits in his chair.

Now, all this could have meant she was running things. But as it happens, they went with Otto having secret from his daughter with his cronies. Which works just as well, perhaps even better, in light of the fact that Alicent was still loyal to her husband and had a lingering fondness/loyalty to Rhaenyra.

They all have the same goal - to get Aegon on the throne - but they are not in agreement how to do it or how far to go to accomplish it.

Okay within the same post you are contradicting yourself. If Alicent is loyal to Viserys and his wishes her “goal” would not be installing Aegon on the throne. [and all that nonsense of Viserys choosing Aegon on his deathbed is just that — utter nonsense… something the writers came up with to make Alicent more sympathetic. Or is Alicent so dumb to take the ramblings of a dying man high on milk of the poppy literally?]

And as the Vaemond fiasco in the last episode showed us Alicent was not being loyal to Viserys’ wishes when she allowed Vaemond to raise the topic of Driftmark’s succession and the legitimacy of Rhaenyra’s children in open court. There were OMG looks between Alicent, Vaemond, and Otto when Viserys walkef into court.

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39 minutes ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

So far I have not watched the whole episode. Just the first few minutes.

Really dark.

I assume you mean visually dark. I watched with no lights on and adjusted the tv settings a little, which helped a lot.

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12 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Okay within the same post you are contradicting yourself. If Alicent is loyal to Viserys and his wishes her “goal” would not be installing Aegon on the throne. [and all that nonsense of Viserys choosing Aegon on his deathbed is just that — utter nonsense… something the writers came up with to make Alicent more sympathetic. Or is Alicent so dumb to take the ramblings of a dying man high on milk of the poppy literally?]

And as the Vaemond fiasco in the last episode showed us Alicent was not being loyal to Viserys’ wishes when she allowed Vaemond to raise the topic of Driftmark’s succession and the legitimacy of Rhaenyra’s children in open court. There were OMG looks between Alicent, Vaemond, and Otto when Viserys walkef into court.

I meant that Otto and his cronies view Alicent as (partially) loyal to her husband. She is his wife, after all. She is perceived as being devoted and loyal to him. Otto knows that she is torn between her loyalty to him and their house and to Viserys.

I didn't mean to say she is 100% loyal to Viserys - she clearly isn't. She has her own wishes and desires, but she cannot be trusted to see them through no matter what. They don't trust her with having the stomach to murder Rhaenyra and her family, nor with telling her about the plans of a detailed coup once her husband dies because she might not agree with it and/or (unintentionally) tell her husband.

In the Vaemond issue she earlier expressed her doubts about going through with it. If she has doubts about that, she cannot be trusted with a coup.

Edited by Lord Varys
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1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

I suspect that another death that may happen in the finale will make her join forces with Rhaenyra.

Hmmmm...

Spoiler

I've seen the trailers and I am not a fan of their decision to squeeze in the Lucerys vs. Aemond fight at Storm's End in the finale. I hope they play it very differently because I don't think there's enough time in the episode to show:

  • the politicking at Storm's End (thereby introducing Lord Borros and his four daughters)
  • the decisions to send emissaries to Storm's End
  • the fight outside Storm's End
  • the Black's reaction to the death of Lucerys
  • the stillbirth of Rhaenyra's daughter
  • Rhaenyra vs. Daemon (they seem to be fighting over whether Rhaenyra should accept peace terms) and Daemon vs. Otto
  • Corlys' survival and his reunion with Rhaenys

In any case, Princess Rhaenys is half-Baratheon (established in the first episode of the show) and she will be likely pissed at what occurs at Storm's End. Plus, Lucerys is an acting diplomat and the murder of diplomats is a no-no...especially with the specter of guest right violation hanging over it.

 

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12 minutes ago, DMC said:

I kinda feel like the hints concerning Aemond's interest in Helaena are meant to mimic Daemon's interest in Rhaenyra, which fits the general effort of making him Daemon 2.0 and consequently his own to own desire to be so.

I hope they don’t make it a love story like Naerys and Aemon. 

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5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Hmmmm...

  Reveal hidden contents

I've seen the trailers and I am not a fan of their decision to squeeze in the Lucerys vs. Aemond fight at Storm's End in the finale. I hope they play it very differently because I don't think there's enough time in the episode to show:

  • the politicking at Storm's End (thereby introducing Lord Borros and his four daughters)
  • the decisions to send emissaries to Storm's End
  • the fight outside Storm's End
  • the Black's reaction to the death of Lucerys
  • the stillbirth of Rhaenyra's daughter
  • Rhaenyra vs. Daemon (they seem to be fighting over whether Rhaenyra should accept peace terms) and Daemon vs. Otto
  • Corlys' survival and his reunion with Rhaenys

In any case, Princess Rhaenys is half-Baratheon (established in the first episode of the show) and she will be likely pissed at what occurs at Storm's End. Plus, Lucerys is an acting diplomat and the murder of diplomats is a no-no...especially with the specter of guest right violation hanging over it.

 

I haven't watched the preview, but I suspect at least one of those things won't be per the book

Spoiler

Rhaenyra didn't look anywhere near ready to give birth in episode 8, so the stillbirth will likely be replaced by a miscarriage. She may still blame the greens for murdering her child.

We know there is a scene where Daemon counts the dragons they have.

And we'll likely have a quick council where they decide to send emissaries to Winterfell and Storm's End. The greens already mentioned Borros Baratheon. So it shouldn't be too long a scene. Luke's part does need some length.

However, I fear that the finale will continue the trend of fast endings after careful buildups.

 

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1 hour ago, Adaneth said:

I just don't like that prophecy to be brought into this story. Especially, after what happened with it in GOT. Basically it was garbage. Every time I hear it now gives me a physical reaction. Pure cringe. I guess it's just "too soon" for me? lol  Doesn't happen with the books. I love those things in the books. I think Got suffered greatly because D&D kept away from all those fantasy elements, but I digress.

That's valid. I can't comment on lingering Trauma left from the fanfic ending of GOT. I had the benefit/loss of watching it well after it was released on my own time. That doesn't mean I have no negative feelings but its not as severe as those who witnessed it in realtime. I personally put it out of my headcanon and making my own internal compendium as the show progresses of what is and what isn't helps a lot.

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5 minutes ago, DMC said:

Oh yeah it already doesn't seem like that.  More like - as Helaena discusses this episode - Aemond lusting after that which is not his.

Ah I liked that line. I like how they are portraying Halaena in general… a Cassandra like figure. But as someone previously mentioned the actress playing her looks almost the same age as Olivia Cooke. 

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11 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Hmmmm...

Spoiler

I dunno I think they can fit that all in.  Particularly considering finale's are usually considerably longer than regular episodes.  Plus, if need be, they can leave the blacks' reaction to Luke's death to the season 2 premiere and simply end it with the dragon fight.

Not saying it will all work out well - who knows - but I think ~80 minutes is sufficient to do all this.

 

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Just now, teej6 said:

Ah I liked that line. I like how they are portraying Halaena in general… a Cassandra like figure. But as someone previously mentioned the actress playing her looks almost the same age as Olivia Cooke. 

Yep, agreed on both counts.  Helaena is quickly becoming my favorite character, which is definitely the biggest surprise of the series thus far.

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Good to see that actual insightfull people arrived the thread, no wonder this writers are so bad, people will just love anything if it ends in a retarded badass display lack of sense, characterization and motivation.

Great to see tha Rhaenys discovered she had a dragon, it seems nobody remembers that when it suits, when she was getting bullied by Vaemond, her son being beat up by some random cunts, her husband always getting things his way. I seeriously thought Meleys was only a pet lizard in  the show, because nobody seems to care or act like these are people you don't fuck with!

After acting like the passive, opressed and poor noblewomen who everyone just steps on, she is now a badass (a very stupid one)!

I'm so looking foward for all the "show turned so bad suddenly and unexpected" people in the final season.

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7 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I haven't watched the preview, but I suspect at least one of those things won't be per the book

  Reveal hidden contents

Rhaenyra didn't look anywhere near ready to give birth in episode 8, so the stillbirth will likely be replaced by a miscarriage. She may still blame the greens for murdering her child.

We know there is a scene where Daemon counts the dragons they have.

And we'll likely have a quick council where they decide to send emissaries to Winterfell and Storm's End. The greens already mentioned Borros Baratheon. So it shouldn't be too long a scene. Luke's part does need some length.

However, I fear that the finale will continue the trend of fast endings after careful buildups.

 

That's a good point.

Spoiler

They can just be saving all of Rhaenyra's tragedies -- the deaths of Jacaerys, Lucerys, Visenya (who I think will be called Aemma in the show), the near-total destruction of House Velaryon, etc. -- for season 2.

But I think that they are really missing out on an opportunity to show the horrifying stillbirth of a twisted-dragon-baby. It's a nice parallel to all of the other childbirth scenes, it references the magical, not-quite-human blood of Valyrian dragonlords and it points out the obvious incest issue. Plus, it's dramatic and graphic...which honestly is the staple of HBO's GoT universe.

Maybe Rhaenyra's doomed childbirth will be the reason why she is unable to take a more hands-on role in the very beginning of the war.

I really wish that they flesh out and extend a lot of the politics and battles that happen.

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2 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Oh wow apparently the writer of episode 9 was interviewed about the ending and had this to say about the dead civilians https://i.redd.it/4l2296gzncu91.jpg

I wish they stop calling it murder.

The Dragonpit had been closed and it seems like that they only have two entrances/exits: the roof and the door. How else she supposed to set her dragon free and get out of the city in the fastest way possible in one piece? Obviously, the floor is some sort of passageway or hollowed out ceiling below because there's no way that Meleys could burst through that much solid stone and earth. 

 

Speaking of which, Helaena's mini-prophecy about "the beast beneath the boards" seems to be referring both to Aegon and Meleys. Helaena was terrified of him during the coronation; she wouldn't even look.

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

Oh yeah it already doesn't seem like that.  More like - as Helaena discusses this episode - Aemond lusting after that which is not his.

Which clearly seems to be more the throne than Helaena.

But Aemond's interest in Helaena likely might be used to have get really angry in the wake of Blood and Cheese.

Right now the guy is still very controlled and potentially pretty competent (although I'm sure his own assessment of his abilities and education are not necessarily accurate), they have some work to do to make him the mad sadistic nutcase he eventually becomes in the book.

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