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[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion


Ran
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12 minutes ago, DMC said:

I took the remark to mean civilians don't count to the nobles - just as they didn't in GoT.

I can buy that explanation a bit but the problem as others alluded to us that scene was shot as a triumphant badass moment that didn’t care about the small folk deaths so it’s not too much of a stretch to see those comments as the writers actual thoughts

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7 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

IMO they are going to make the Greens enormously less popular among them, they are going to be horrified.

In the end, the Greens are less popular than the Blacks for a reason. And that's in-universe and among the readers.

The average non-reader viewer will think it was insane because -- if what I think is going to happen ends up happening -- it prevents all possibility of peace and it will be a subtle power move (Aemond is well-established within the show as envying Aemond and wanting to usurp him and his children)

Some people will also view it as extremely childish and petty.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, DMC said:

I wouldn't be surprised if people are more upset about the dragon.

I really think some people are seriously under-estimating just how people are going to react to the the deaths of dragons. 

Especially young dragons.

The Storming of the Dragonpit is going to get PETA on the show's case.

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15 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

People nowadays react very viscerally to self-righteous, "I do all the right things" goody-two-shoes. Especially ones who keep pressing and picking at issues that have already been contested and resolved.

Alicent, at that point, was being very self-righteous. She is similar to Ned Stark but, unlike Ned Stark, her motives and reasonings are not pure. They are fearful, paranoid and selfish.

And mother or not, stealing a dagger from a person and charging at an 8-year-old child with said stolen dagger (in public, no less) is pretty wild.

Yes, it's true. But still it bugged me.. I can't really explain why. Except that Rhaenyra also striked me as kind of self-righteous regarding her sons who attacked aemond first. Sure he was being an ass, but I feel that the audience would have reacted differently if we had know Aemond for a while as a bullied kid who got to take a small revenge by riding Vhagar.

Or maybe that's just because we live in a time where people keep reacting to self-righteousness while be self-righteous themselves ^^

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19 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Yeah that was a pretty stupid remark.

 

All I'm saying is that Rhaenys is not at all wrong for setting herself and her dragon free with a consequences-be-damned mindset, that she will come to regret this decision and the smallfolk will remember events like this and the attack on Mysaria.

 

Plus, let's think of what would've happened if Rhaenys never escaped.

For one, Rhaenyra would've never found out. She would've eventually returned to King's Landing only to walk right into a death trap and Dragonstone would've ended up facing surprise siege and blockade.

It wouldn't be right.

I don't think Rhaenys was attempting to maximise casualties among the smallfolk,  although she was not bothered by them either.  To her and her party, they are after all, traitors, by virtue of acclaiming an usurper as king.

I think she did as any noble in her position would do.  She wants to escape, and the lives of the smallfolk don't count for much in that case.

Edited by SeanF
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2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

In the end, the Greens are less popular than the Blacks for a reason. And that's in-universe and among the readers.

The average non-reader viewer will think it was insane because -- if what I think is going to happen ends up happening -- it prevents all possibility of peace and it will be a subtle power move (Aemond is well-established within the show as envying Aemond and wanting to usurp him and his children)

Some people will also view it as extremely childish and petty.

 

 

True. Aemond's actions kills every hope for reconciliation as well as Luc.

I think they'll be reacting mostly negatively, though Daemon is a clear fan favorite and he's been childish and petty for most of the season.

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15 minutes ago, apovsic said:

You mean even less popular than they are now? I mean if one is supporting Greens so far into the show, I don't think a little bit of kinslaying will change one's mind :)

Aemond is quite popular, though. More so than the Strong boys, I would say.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I don't think Rhaenys was attempting to maximise casualties among the smallfolk,  although she was not bothered by them either.

I think she did as any noble in her position would do.  She wants to escape, and the lives of the smallfolk don't count for much in that case.

Right

But people have to look at the alternative.

Is Rhaenys expected just to languish in her room within the Red Keep like TV-Sansa first languished in Maegor's Holdfast (and refused the Hound's offer to escape) and then languished once again in Ramsay's Winterfell rape tower?

She lost Ser Arryk in the crowds, and he was going to escort her to safety--despite her wishes to get Meleys.

 

Also, if Rhaenys doesn't escape King's Landing on dragonback, then Rhaenyra is more or less doomed. Because she had stated her intention to return to King's Landing within the week.

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16 minutes ago, apovsic said:

You mean even less popular than they are now? I mean if one is supporting Greens so far into the show, I don't think a little bit of kinslaying will change one's mind :)

Yes, even less popular hahaha. There are some fans out there of Alicent or Aemond, quite a few actually if you follow reddit and youtube and all of that.

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

I wouldn't be surprised if people are more upset about the dragon.

I just thought about that after watching the preview, Vhagar looks easily 10 times the size of Arrax, it's going to be a massacre. He even struggles with flying through the storm as in the books, it will be a sad scene.

12 minutes ago, Khloey said:

Theyr won't cheer on it, that's for sure. But then I can't wait to see the look on their face next season for Blood and cheese.

I still think B and C isn't going to be done in a manner that will be 100% faithful to the books. It's just too dark for TV, IMO. I would bet that Daemon doesn't have anything to do with it and it's just Mysaria on her own.

7 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

In the end, the Greens are less popular than the Blacks for a reason. And that's in-universe and among the readers.

The average non-reader viewer will think it was insane because -- if what I think is going to happen ends up happening -- it prevents all possibility of peace and it will be a subtle power move (Aemond is well-established within the show as envying Aemond and wanting to usurp him and his children)

Some people will also view it as extremely childish and petty.

 

 

Agree with all of that.

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

I really think some people are seriously under-estimating just how people are going to react to the the deaths of dragons. 

Especially young dragons.

The Storming of the Dragonpit is going to get PETA on the show's case.

Hahahahaha that would be funny

Edited by Ingelheim
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7 minutes ago, Ran said:

I really think some people are seriously under-estimating just how people are going to react to the the deaths of dragons. 

Especially young dragons.

The Storming of the Dragonpit is going to get PETA on the show's case.

I think dragons and direwolves are vastly more popular with viewers than the smallfolk are.  I think there was quite a widespread view at the end of GOT that the people of Kings Landing were getting their just desserts.

Edited by SeanF
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5 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

I can buy that explanation a bit but the problem as others alluded to us that scene was shot as a triumphant badass moment that didn’t care about the small folk deaths so it’s not too much of a stretch to see those comments as the writers actual thoughts

I dunno.  If they didn't want to shoot it showing Rhaenys/Meleys clearly killing a bunch of civilians, they obviously didn't have to.  Which means they intentionally put that in there..which suggests the writers do indeed care about the civilians she killed.

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

I really think some people are seriously under-estimating just how people are going to react to the the deaths of dragons. 

Especially young dragons.

Yeah it's kinda like an extreme version of how my sister will not watch anything where horses are killed.  Or even kinda how in the old westerns you could tell who was a bad guy if a dog didn't like/barked at him.

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3 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

I still think B and C isn't going to be done in a manner that will be 100% faithful to the books. It's just too dark for TV, IMO. I would bet that Daemon doesn't have anything to do with it and it's just Mysaria on her own.

Dear God, I hope not or I will riot.. I'll become an endless troll on socials bitching about the show for anything.

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2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Aemond is quite popular, though. More so than the Strong boys, I would say.

2 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Yes, even less popular hahaha. There are some fans out there of Alicent or Aemond, quite a few actually if you follow reddit and youtube and all of that.

 

Really, I didn't notice, I thought that most people that tend to like this kind of character choose Deamon as their guy.

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6 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Also, if Rhaenys doesn't escape King's Landing on dragonback, then Rhaenyra is more or less doomed. Because she had stated her intention to return to King's Landing within the week.

And? How is not doomed Rhaenyra better than killing hundreds of people?

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3 minutes ago, Khloey said:

Dear God, I hope not or I will riot.. I'll become an endless troll on socials bitching about the show for anything.

I honestly don't think they are going to decapitate a 2 year old boy after two assassins force her mother to choose one of her children...on screen.

It may be done off-screen, it may be changed quite a bit, but I'm not sure HBO is willing to go down that route.

Edited by Ingelheim
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2 minutes ago, apovsic said:

And? How is not doomed Rhaenyra better than killing hundreds of people?

Because (in the eyes of the Blacks) the rightful Queen would have been killed by traitors.

Even in a modern democracy, if it's a choice between the life of the Head of Government, and the lives of ordinary civilians, you know whose life is going to be favoured.

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1 minute ago, Ingelheim said:

I still think B and C isn't going to be done in a manner that will be 100% faithful to the books. It's just too dark for TV, IMO. I would bet that Daemon doesn't have anything to do with it and it's just Mysaria on her own.

But we're not talking TV. We're talking HBO.

I think they should do it.

Well, I don't want to see a small child be beheaded on screen and their head carried about in a satchel like a piece of bread. But Helaena (or, if you really want to ant the dramantic tension, Alicent) should be made to choose which child should be killed and the assassins should kill the child that they chose to save. 

Mysaria definitely has both the motivation and the power to be atrociously cruel in targeting Aegon's children (it makes sense storywise as he is a lot like Euron Greyjoy: a rapist who treats and views his bastards like excrement...someone like Mysaria would consider it poetic justice)

That said, I think Daemon should be involved--at least on the level of asking for help. TV version of Daemon - although he has matured - is both careless and indiscreet enough for such a thing and to not care if he was accused of such even though he is innocent.

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1 minute ago, Ingelheim said:

I honestly don't think they are going to decapitate a 2 year old boy after two assassins force her mother to choose one of her children...on screen.

It may be done off-screen, it may be changed quite a bit, but I'm not sure HBO is willing to go down that route.

I don't think we'll actually see the beheading, it will probably happen like Sansa's rape. We'll only get to see the reactions on Haleana and Alicent's faces. But I really hope they don't cut Daemon's role into that.

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I have only watched four of the episodes that have aired so far and have not read the book material.  The show seems mediocre to average and I only tuned in to episode 9 after reading a plot summary about Rhaenys and her dragon. Wanted to see the scene.

This is the strongest of the 4 episodes I have watched but there is still a lot of nonsense.  The scenes searching for Aegon dragged on and on.  I had to skip.  The scene with Rhaenys is absurd from the get go as there is no way she could not be severely injured or killed by her dragon bursting through the roof. Other people have mentioned other plausible reasons.

It also makes no sense that she would not kill the greens here.  The conversation she had with Alicent was a threat. The absurd argument about the Queen who never was is just transparent manipulation that someone like Rhaenys would see through. Alicent was not wise at all by trying to exploit a past grievance. What happens if Rhaenys refuses to endorse Aemond (or was it Aegon?)?  Does she get to walk away with her dragon? Best case is that they imprison her and have her dragon bonded to someone else.  It is do what we say or suffer the consequences.  Her looking on Alicent kindly is ridiculous as there was no olive branch there.  Installing her son is already an act of war. 

There is also another reason why Rhaenys' sympathy for Alicent does not work.  Rhaenyra's only option is to be humiliated and bend the knee without even the courtesy of a formal vote that Rhaenys got.  Or war.  Rhaenys would see the parallels between her situation and Rhaenyra and understand how much worse it is.  A woman doesn't even get a chance to volunteer for the job now.  Just callously tossed away without ceremony.  Rhaenys might even be hostile towards Alicent as she should see her as a willing tool for the machinations of the men who are in control.  The complete embodiment of an archetype Rhaenys would despise.

On a more positive note, I liked Alicent's characterization in the episode.  Better than anything I have seen so far in the series for any character.  However, in the context of the coronation, it doesn't quite work (even though it works judged in isolation).  What else is going to happen except war at this point?  It is an act of treason.  She has yet to come up with anything peaceful to counter Rhaenyra's future justifiable anger.  She should have been involved with the coup.  People keep saying she has a Cersei arc but she seems more like Sansa to me.  Without agency and having to put up with humiliations and marginalizations due to her powerlessness.  Their friendship is not good enough to bank on for a peaceful solution.  The show keeps trying to humanize them both with this but that ship sailed when Alicent seduced her father behind her back.  No friendship would survive that.  Alicent is relying entirely on Rhaenyra's capitulating and sanctioning their treason.  The path has been set for war otherwise.  That fool Otto was at least realistic. 

BTW, was Alicent masturbating at the end of that ridiculous foot fetish scene.  Her hand went under her dress as she closed her eyes.  Or did I misread that?  Sorry for the long post.

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1 minute ago, Ingelheim said:

I honestly don't think they are going to decapitate a 2 year old boy after two assassins force her mother to choose one of her children...on screen.

Well, Jaehaerys will presumably be a bit older than 2.  I royally suck at ages for kids but the twins look to be about 4 or 5 in the scene with Helaena this episode.  But still, yeah I agree.  I have a hard time believing they'll show the decapitation of an under-ten-year-old on screen.  I guess we'll see.

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