Jump to content

[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion


Ran
 Share

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

But we're not talking TV. We're talking HBO.

I think they should do it.

Well, I don't want to see a small child be beheaded on screen and their head carried about in a satchel like a piece of bread. But Helaena (or, if you really want to ant the dramantic tension, Alicent) should be made to choose which child should be killed and the assassins should kill the child that they chose to save. 

Mysaria definitely has both the motivation and the power to be atrociously cruel in targeting Aegon's children (it makes sense storywise as he is a lot like Euron Greyjoy: a rapist who treats and views his bastards like excrement...someone like Mysaria would consider it poetic justice)

That said, I think Daemon should be involved--at least on the level of asking for help. TV version of Daemon - although he has matured - is both careless and indiscreet enough for such a thing and to not care if he was accused of such even though he is innocent.

I don't know about the US but I'm pretty sure that in my homecountry (Spain) you are not legally permitted to decapitate a little child on screen. 

It's just a feeling that I've had since way before the show aired, that Blood and Cheese isn't something that's going to be a 100% faithfully portrayed.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Because (in the eyes of the Blacks) the rightful Queen would have been killed by traitors.

Even in a modern democracy, if it's a choice between the life of the Head of Government, and the lives of ordinary civilians, you know whose life is going to be favoured.

Hell, you see this in a more everyday level.

Let's say a company is in trouble and/or needs to downsize and it's a choice between the CEO and the maintenance crew of corporate headquarters.

Who is not getting a bonus or a raise? Who is getting a pay cut? Whose benefits are getting taken away? Who is getting fired?

 

I'm not saying that to say that the lives of people at the bottom of the totem pole do not matter. What I am saying is that the CEO is very difficult to replace compared to the overnight janitor.

 

But back to in-world because the real world is depressing sometimes...even if Rhaenyra is not the rightful Queen, she is still a a well-known public entity (i.e. celebrity), a pregnant woman and a royal princess, the firstborn child of the King. The King still hasn't even been buried yet. To throw her in a cell somewhere and have her summarily tortured into submission or executed would be an egregious, senseless crime...worse than what King Joffrey did to Ned Stark before the High Septon in the Great Sept.

Edited by BlackLightning
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Because (in the eyes of the Blacks) the rightful Queen would have been killed by traitors.

Even in a modern democracy, if it's a choice between the life of the Head of Government, and the lives of ordinary civilians, you know whose life is going to be favoured.

I know and I strongly disagree with this sentiment and it's even worse in the show. Defending killing hundreds just because there is possibility that one figurehead will die? Nonsense.

Let's then defend Otto's proposal to kill Rheanyra and her family, it would be less bloody ... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Hell, you see this in a more everyday level.

Let's say a company is in trouble and/or needs to downsize and it's a choice between the CEO and the maintenance crew of corporate headquarters.

Who is not getting a bonus or a raise? Who is getting a pay cut? Whose benefits are getting taken away? Who is getting fired?

 

I'm not saying that to say that the lives of people at the bottom of the totem pole do not matter. What I am saying is that the CEO is very difficult to replace compared to the overnight janitor.

 

But back to in-world because the real world is depressing sometimes...even if Rhaenyra is not the rightful Queen, she is still a a well-known public entity (i.e. celebrity), a pregnant woman and a royal princess, the firstborn child of the King. The King still hasn't even been buried yet. To throw her in a cell somewhere and have her summarily tortured into submission or executed would be an egregious, senseless crime...worse than what King Joffrey did to Ned Stark before the High Septon in the Great Sept.

1.) I prefer to be fired, than dead.

2.) And killing hundreds is less egregious and senseless crime? Come on ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, apovsic said:

I know and I strongly disagree with this sentiment and it's even worse in the show. Defending killing hundreds just because there is possibility that one figurehead will die? Nonsense.

Let's then defend Otto's proposal to kill Rheanyra and her family, it would be less bloody ... 

I mean, this is pretty much the landscape of the entire universe.  Robert's Rebellion is fought because of the murder/kidnapping of a handful of nobles.  Robb Stark calls his banners just to try to save his father and two sisters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Oh wow apparently the writer of episode 9 was interviewed about the ending and had this to say about the dead civilians https://i.redd.it/4l2296gzncu91.jpg

 

57 minutes ago, DMC said:

I took the remark to mean civilians don't count to the nobles - just as they didn't in GoT.

 

I agree with DMC here. The plight of the smallfolk was the motif of the episode. I'm sure the writer knew what she wrote and if not the director got the message. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, apovsic said:

1.) I prefer to be fired, than dead.

2.) And killing hundreds is less egregious and senseless crime? Come on ...

Okay fine.

I don't think it is senseless for Rhaenys to injure and kill a few hundred people in her attempt to escape. Is she supposed to stay put and let herself be a prisoner/hostage?

But you are right and I can't win this argument/debate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The nonsense dial goes all the way to 11

Rhaenys and Meleys are badass, including smallfolk massacre, idiotic warstrategy, incompetent guards, magically appearing clothes. “We can’t write for shit but must needs show female characters are simultaneously peace-loving and adolescent wish-fulfilment”

TV so bad it’s embarrassing

Mysaria, Kingsguard twins, Elric, and Chris stroll through the slums of Kings Landing. The whole arc looked like something out of Xena: Warrior Princess and was acted even worse, in particular by the White Worm.

Pretty cool

Coronation of Aegon was not badly done. (Still: who has choreographed the guards for this? As in “let’s rehearse a coronation spiel” in case we suddenly need it. Prepared to let this go, though.) Trumpet fanfare was musically fitting instead of something Benjamin Britten could have written. Well done.

I think we saw somebody (should be Erryk? or the other one?) take the crown of Jaeharys (I clearly have the crowns confused in my head, need to reread that.)

This Week in Contemporary Marxism

“Supreme executive power derives from a mandate of the masses.” Spoken not exactly like that, but close enough to turn the entire scene with Mysaria into Monty Python. As if anybody of her standing, in her time, with her background, or her job, would care for children’s pit fighting. Another embarrassing insert of late 21st century morality performed with the narrative delicacy and historical understanding of an 8-year old.

The verisimilitude of depicting the lower classes is zero. Who is this? When does this happen? Does anybody believe this?

Happy Simone De Beauvoir Doesn’t Need to See This

Because of misunderstood allyship, another female character arc turns from agency to a deplorable mishmash of victimhood and brave desparation. Alicent is now in the 9th iteration of “try to give her a character,” and it fails miserably, we’ve arrived at “deer in headlights”. Oh what a wonderful character she could have been, even as “just” a Hexia de Trick, a Malificent, a Cruella de Vil. But, no, the women need to be saints, victims, and badass. If I had a shred of sympathy left with the Woke Movement, I’d feel betrayed and disappointed. Instead, I’m just shaking my head and rolling my eyes, halfway happy that their ill-begotten project has turned to shit. What a mess, what a contemptible mess.

Pretty Costumes

I liked both Alicent and Aemond. The latter looks so much like Elric in my head I want him to brandish Stormbringer. Somebody make him say “All Aemond has is sorrow, guilt, malice, hatred. This is all he deserves and all he will ever desire.”

Stuff that Made no Sense but Who’s Counting Anymore

Aegon hidden in the Sept. Rhaenys wearing visible earrings (probably worth several years of income) when “disguised” among the smallfolk. Chris killing Beesbury in the most nonsensical manner. Really weak and loooong plotting about who should find Aegon first and why. 

Offputting Softcore Porn

Not a lot, except for Larys’s pedo-philia. For that, at least, we’re grateful. If wokism can cure this show of its embarrassing porn scenes, I’m willing to look favourably on the nonsensical demographics.

What I’d have liked to see

Viserys rotting. Blood oath of the green council. More house names of minor Lords who bent the knee or refused to, just to give everything some Westerosi colour.

Arboreal Perspective

None. Not so much as a shrubbery.

 

Edited by Happy Ent
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

I mean, this is pretty much the landscape of the entire universe.  Robert's Rebellion is fought because of the murder/kidnapping of a handful of nobles.  Robb Stark calls his banners just to try to save his father and two sisters.

Sure, you got me here. I was thinking about direct killing, but yeah if we include all the  "indirect" killing it is pretty common occurrence in the books/show.

It's probably the scene, it just doesn't feel right and it probably clouds all the discussing about it. I'm probably more disappointed with the writers that "forced" Rheanys into the situation than with Rheanys for her actions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

Next season, though, perhaps? Who knows.

I do hope so but my strong suspicion is that they will gloss over it as they did Cole’s murder of Joffrey. Maybe they can make the Shepherd or his family a casualty of Meleys destruction. This may give him a backstory for his hate and passion. But I’m not counting on it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

But you are right and I can't win this argument/debate.

I don't know if this is sarcasm or not, but if I offend you, sorry, I'm pretty grumpy right now, cause the scene didn't sit well with me and also it's quite late here (so I should probably head to bed).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Skimmed the thread so not sure if it’s been mentioned, buried at the beginning of the episode as it was, but after the wedding fight that Criston started and got away with … he straight up murders one of the small council. OK it was an unusual circumstance, but nah. White cloaks can’t just murder the small council regardless of how convenient it might be for some present.

ETA: yes it’s been discussed, nvm.

Edited by DaveSumm
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two of the accounts from the chroniclers claim he murdered him even more clearly than what they did here, where he didn't expect Beesbury to die (more manslaughter than murder). Admittedly, in all likelihood Cole never did in fact kill Beesbury, he was an old man who died in the poor conditions of the black cells, but still... 

It was convenient for everyone present, in any case, except for the Lord Commander. Everyone else accepted it and moved on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, apovsic said:

It's probably the scene, it just doesn't feel right and it probably clouds all the discussing about it. I'm probably more disappointed with the writers that "forced" Rheanys into the situation than with Rheanys for her actions.

Yeah, I agree with this.  Logically, there should be other exits for her to use instead of having to emerge from the floor.  Like I said earlier, I anticipated the former but should have known better and expected the latter due to "spectacle."

Plus, I do think it'd be cool if this helps explain the storming of the dragonpit.  It's pretty intuitive that it would, but we'll see.  That's a long ways off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I think dragons and direwolves are vastly more popular with viewers than the smallfolk are.  I think there was quite a widespread view at the end of GOT that the people of Kings Landing were getting their just desserts.

What?  That horrible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, DMC said:

I mean, this is pretty much the landscape of the entire universe.  Robert's Rebellion is fought because of the murder/kidnapping of a handful of nobles.  Robb Stark calls his banners just to try to save his father and two sisters.

As always, Tywin and Ser Kevan dial up the cruelty to eleven.  They do seek to maximise casualties among the smallfolk of the enemy, in order to break their spirits.

But, among the rest, I think Catelyn is the only one who actually cares sufficiently about non-noble lives to  think that peace is worth having, even if one has to swallow one's pride. Ned, Stannis, and Robb don't want the smallfolk to suffer, but accept that they will have to suffer in order for them to defend themselves/avenge wrongs done to their families/take the crown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Genuine question, and please forgive me for not paying attention:

Why was the dragonpit covered in the first place? 

Wasn’t it open in episode 1, then young!Rhaenyra lands; more like an arena? Where does the roof come from, and why is it there? Are the other dragons (say, Vhagar) also supposed to break through the floor? I’m not trying to be sarcastic, but genuinely confused.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What?  That horrible.

In light of recent events it is blackly funny that in Russia, the final season received a furious reaction from viewers, simply because no one could see what the issue was with burning down Kings Landing and massacring the inhabitants.  But, yes, I had a number of friends and acquaintances who took the view that Kings Landing got what was coming to it.  There's probably a bit of a medieval executioner in a lot of us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Ned, Stannis, and Robb don't want the smallfolk to suffer, but accept that they will have to suffer in order for them to defend themselves/avenge wrongs done to their families/take the crown.

Reminds me of the conversation in season 3 between Robb and Talisa when she asks him what will happen if he wins and Robb's like "I don't know, I have no desire to sit the Iron Throne" and Talia points out how stupid it is to go to war without an endgame in mind.  Again, reminds of Iraq.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...