[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion

[Khloey]

24 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

On the other hand, I've seen many people, particularly on Youtube and the official HOTD subreddit, who absolutely loved the ending. 

Yes, I've seen the same thing on Facebook groups as well. Very few people had a problem with the ending. Lots of them are writing about Rhaenys as the Queen who should have been, just because of that moment.

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

But everyone who we get near seems to think it will lead to war; people are preparing for war; Viserys feared it would lead to war; Hightower acts like its leading to war.

Rhaenys is far too smart to claim ignorance; she cannot be this smart and say "War? What's that? No, it won't lead to that!" 

Everyone fears it will lead to war.  The hope is to stop it.  Hell, even Alicent, albeit naively, hopes to stop it in this episode.  And of course, even Otto and the small council hope to prevent the war by killing Rhaenyra and her family.  Apparently Rhaenys is "stupid" for not doing the same thing.

And even if it does lead to war, there's no way to anticipate that will lead to the type of war with such casualties - as well as the losses of the dragons and her houses.  There's a shitton of variability in the extent of war before a peaceable resolution can be achieved.

Not to mention, again, that she's not even sure she wants to participate in the war.  And moreover, if she does, whether Rhaenyra would want her to incinerate her half-siblings et al. at this point.

[Happy Ent]

After we got Myseria rhapsodise over “Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses” today, what other quote from Holy Grail can we expect?

“No, now go away before I taunt you a second time.” Simon Strong to Deamon Targaryen during the Assualt on Harrenhal.

“’tis but a flesh wound” – last words of Luke off Storm’s End?

“When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them […]” Maybe Lord Tully?

Maybe the whole Lancelot temptation subplot can be acted out by either Aemond at the Baratheon’s or (even better) by Jace in Winterfell, if Mushroom is to be believed.

[Ingelheim]

10 minutes ago, Khloey said:

Yes, I've seen the same thing on Facebook groups as well. Very few people had a problem with the ending. Lots of them are writing about Rhaenys as the Queen who should have been, just because of that moment.

One of the most important things that we all have to keep in mind at all times is that we are a minority among viewers. 90% of them haven't read any of the source material and probably never will.

That's why some of the changes will always be done no matter what we think. Rhaenys being there doesn't make much sense, but they thought it was cool and watching the reactions the average viewer thinks the same.

And even with that, I think HOTD is being quite a faithful adaptation so far, as much as the first season of GOT was. And it's quality television.

[chrisdaw]

The discourse around the Rhaenys scene is disappointing. You wouldn't think this was a world in which Bloodraven became the most reviled villain alive for ordering arrow fire in a battle that killed 3 of his kin. Makes one wonder why bother with world and character building.

[Zorral]

50 minutes ago, SeanF said:

As far as I can tell, class conflict was very unusual in medieval times (you can see it, but mostly, in conflicts between burgesses and nobles, eg in Flanders, and Northern Italy, places that were heavily urbanised).  Even Wat Tyler's revolt was mostly a revolt of prosperous peasants, guildsmen,  and minor gentry against oppressive government.

It wasn't.  It's just that the poor peasants, poorly armed, fighting against professionals, and already starved, tended to lose.

These are the same as slave insurrections.  You read the history of say the Caribbean and Dixie, in the days of the Atlantic slave trade and slavery, and you get the idea insurrections were few -- only the very biggest, longest getting into the history books.  But insurrections were constant, when one goes digging, as contemporary historians discovered.

Again they did tend to be short because of being underarmed and starving.  So, the enslaved preferred to run away, as on Cuba and Jamaica, for instance, and in South Carolina to the Great Dismal Swamp, for instance.  It was more effective anyway.  At least in the US South until the 1840's, when all of Dixie became a locked down prison.  Yet, still they ran, and still they rebelled.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Zorral

[Khloey]

Btw, I don't know if any of you have seen this, but those are the kind of HOTD memes that I'm looking forward to every week :

https://scontent-fra5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/312178651_252931533749576_8875455210195427466_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=7k1oYPbhNLcAX8s3If6&_nc_ht=scontent-fra5-2.xx&oh=00_AT8Hp4Edfas2h1lbjXm3gKr5w4XaZsTDeplFdUTmyJQASQ&oe=635391CE

Edited October 17, 2022 by Khloey

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

34 minutes ago, massoir said:

clubfoot foot fetish, just why?

Someone theorised that he has a thing for healthy feet because of his own bad foot, which is... interesting.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[teej6]

53 minutes ago, massoir said:

glad rhaenys had time to armour up before, minus the helmet that probably would have helped smashing through a stone floor. Nice to see meleys threading the needle though

 yeah didn’t think of that. all those rocks falling when Meleys smashed through a wall of concrete/ stone… not one seemed to land on Rhaenys naked head. I know I’m just nitpicking now… but can’t help it with that idiotic scene.

[Darryk]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The people of King's Landing eventually turn against dragons and the lack of killing the Greens results in Rhaenys death.

I'm not sure why people don't think this will have consequences.

If they link the killing of the dragons to this moment then credit to them.

I would like there to be some more immediate consequences for it though ie. The Greens using it as propaganda against the Blacks. It was a really traumatic event for the people of King's Landing and the next episode should acknowledge that and not just continue as if nothing happened.

Rhaenys just knowingly butchered thousands of people so I hope the writers realised this makes her character a ruthless psycho (and someone who would've been a terrible queen) and weren't trying to make this into a "Girl Boss" moment. 

The reason I think this scene won't have the consequences it warrants is because I'm worried they did a D+D and just went for spectacle. "Creatively it made sense cause we wanted it to happen" etc. As much as I'm loving this series. GoT season 8 made me cynical and expect the worst. The writing on this show has been top notch but there's always that fear they'll jump the shark.

[The Bard of Banefort]

37 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

The discourse around the Rhaenys scene is disappointing. You wouldn't think this was a world in which Bloodraven became the most reviled villain alive for ordering arrow fire in a battle that killed 3 of his kin. Makes one wonder why bother with world and character building.

Have they even mentioned kinslaying on HOTD though? They didn’t mention the stigma around bastards until after Rhaenyra had three of them. And it’s not like GOT was consistent about either: no one batted an eye over Jon being crowned over his trueborn sister who was sitting right next to him, and no one mentioned him being a kinslayer after he killed his aunt.

[chrisdaw]

They made an effort to allude to Daemon having sexual difficulties but then he was particularly attracted to Rhaenyra and Laena. Rhaenyra always particularly had the hots for Daemon. And now we have Aemond seeming to desire Helaena.

It may be the point that the more dragon like (wilful to the point of destruction) the Targaryen the more attracted they are to incestuous relations.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Also the kingsguard is bloody useless. A goddamn dragon is facing off against your king, and his mother has to shield him because none of you will step up? Cersei would have had their heads.

[Darryk]

48 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

One of the most important things that we all have to keep in mind at all times is that we are a minority among viewers. 90% of them haven't read any of the source material and probably never will.

That's why some of the changes will always be done no matter what we think. Rhaenys being there doesn't make much sense, but they thought it was cool and watching the reactions the average viewer thinks the same.

And even with that, I think HOTD is being quite a faithful adaptation so far, as much as the first season of GOT was. And it's quality television.

It's not so much "they haven't read the source material so they don't mind the changes" that's my issue as "they're cheering a character for slaughtering peasants en masse, possibly because they think it's 'Girl Boss'"

Just shows how psychotic Twitter is. 

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

I think it was a major omission not to have Alicent suggest Aemond and Daeron marry Baela and Rhaena. Not only should that have logically happened but it'd also be an organic way to introduce Daeron ahead of S2. Oh, and if their excuse for Rhaenys' stunt is she's not at that point a committed Black then why not show her genuinely consider a Green counter-offer? On paper, Aemond and Daeron are much better marital prizes. 1) Aemond and Daeron are legitimate princes with the prestigious surname Targaryen. 2) Aemond rides Vhagar, the largest dragon and the only surviving mount of the Conquest trio. (The Blue Queen is also by all accounts a fine dragon whereas Vermax and Arrax don't even have a description, let alone a title.) 3. Aemond is noted to be a deadly swordsman and Daeron, it is safe to assume, is at least decent whereas Jace and Luke are never said to be particularly skilled with the sword (and before anyone brings up their youth, Jaime, Daemon, Maegor, etc. were already making names for themselves at that age). 4) House Hightower makes for better allies and in-laws, especially when you consider House Strong is A) In the Riverlands, B) Rules Harrenhal, and C) Is now led by the childless cripple, Larys. Oh, and the Hightowers, like the Velaryons, are heavily involved in trade so they'd probably get along better than most houses as old, rich, powerful, and ambitious as both of them are.

[Darryk]

7 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Also the kingsguard is bloody useless. A goddamn dragon is facing off against your king, and his mother has to shield him because none of you will step up? Cersei would have had their heads.

I did notice that, yeah. You could argue everyone was in shock but yeah, it would have been better writing for the Kingsguard to form a shield in front of them.

[Ingelheim]

8 minutes ago, Darryk said:

It's not so much "they haven't read the source material so they don't mind the changes" that's my issue as "they're cheering a character for slaughtering peasants en masse, possibly because they think it's 'Girl Boss'"

Just shows how psychotic Twitter is. 

People in general liked Rhaenys' scene, it's not just Twitter. It is just what it is.

[butterweedstrover]

Ok, look. No one wants to be broken record, especially not one that's going to rain on the parade of others, dampening the euphoria that fans feel over a show they hold dear to their hearts. 

And as someone else said, this episode might have been custom built for me or others who had complained about a lack of nuance. And others who I happen to agree with quite often, those who take issue with the episode, decry the whitewashing of Alicent's character and the making of her into an impotent pawn of the men in her life. 

So I watched it. Just finished the episode. And it is remarkable, that even among its detractors, no one seems to care about how fundamentally broken the script is. So much so that it brings an otherwise phenomenal production down to levels that are to their core horrendous. And I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but that is what it was, horrendous. 

Episode 9 itself is the climax of all the haphazard writing flaws and favoritism which built up to this disaster. But I find it peculiar that no one seems to be discussing what about it is so awful. And to do that we need to look at what it did great. 

Like the rest of the season, the production value was incredible. The tone, the music, the gothic intro flush with candlelight really spoke to a dedication by the team. And it was not, like Rings of Power, just beautiful visuals masking an empty narrative, but cinematography that enhanced the story. 

Seeing the conspirators gather around late at night provided a tension lesser shows would find elusive. And the acting is on a scale I see only in the most prestigious television. All around the actors provide an emotional sophistication that speaks to some greater themes involving fear, anticipation, loyalty, conflict, and love. 

So really, it should be a homerun. All the minor quibbles about why Rhaenys did or did not finish the family off, or whether Cole did or did not mean to kill Beesbury are just that, irrelevant asides to the greater plot that is being fleshed out. But alas on even the most shallow introspection this beautiful tapestry falls apart. 

The characters behave in such a way that appears nuanced and emotionally intricate, but instead of underlining some internal strife it signifies mental schizophrenia.  

Now I have no problem with people diagnosed with schizophrenia. They are all perfectly fine people. It becomes an issue however when the characters are meant to be perceived in a serious manner, and when those characters are the primary movers of the plot. 

Alicent is not a real person anymore. To say she is whitewashed is to say she has been gifted with moral clarity, which she has not. I don't understand why people here or elsewhere pretend the Greens are behaving in some rational manner, or that they are reacting to some personal motivations that are worthy of interpretation, because they are not.   

The premise of the conflict was that Alicent, worried for the safety of her children, sought to prevent Rhaenyra from ascending to the throne. And why? Because the realm would not accept Rhaenyra. 

Alicent is sold to us as a dedicated wife. And as a friend who must now, for sake of her children, go against the person whom she has shared her most private of thoughts with since childhood. 

This is not a rivalry, but it is the premonition of one. And it manifests itself in the form of despise, not reluctance. This character shows not reluctance but rather a commitment to see the downfall of her best friend. Even at the expense of her own children. 

And who is Rhaenyra? What is she? We don't know because this 'rivalry' is not acknowledged on her end. She provides endless niceties and seems oblivious to the fact that this person who she called friend wants her all but dead. 

And against the wishes of who does she, Alicent, plan this betrayal? Against those of her husband who she works to undermine at every turn. We are assured she is dedicated to him but yet she only manipulates his weakness and health for her own ends. She knows many times over Viserys does not want Aegon to be king, and that is specifically why she attempts to exploit his suffering, so that she might rule in a manner opposite of how he would conduct affairs. Both in the removal of Valyrian insignia and by the ostracization of Rhaenyra's children. 

Why is she doing this? It's too late to figure out why because by episode 8 this 'rivalry' is concluded with heartfelt apologies. Because the king pleaded for it, and because Rhaenyra acknowledged Alicent as a dedicated wife to the king. 

 

I want everyone to read the bold again. Alicent, whose only purpose in the plot has been to undermine the will of her husband, ceases to do so because she is told she is a dedicated wife and so she becomes a dedicated wife. She moves past her inexplicable hatred because that which she is not becomes what she is. 

Now I want to provide a definition for Schizophrenia- 

"a long-term mental disorder of a type involving a breakdown in the relation between thought, emotion, and behavior, leading to faulty perception, inappropriate actions and feelings, withdrawal from reality and personal relationships into fantasy and delusion, and a sense of mental fragmentation."  

Thought: "I am a good wife." 

Emotion: "I hate Rhaenyra" 

Behavior: "I love Rhaenyra"  

She disassociates the belief that she is a good wife with her emotional objective to see Rhaenyra destroyed. 

And why again is she to see Rhaenyra destroyed? For the sake of her children, whom she loves. And why again does she not show hesitance in seeing Rhaenyra destroyed? Because she wants Rhaenyra destroyed. She needs her children alive and wants her best friend to suffer for being free which she herself is not because she is a dedicated wife stuck in a loveless marriage. 

CHILDREN need to be safe so RHAENYRA needs to be destroyed. RHAENYRA is a threat so CHILDREN aren't safe. Being an UNDEDICATED wife makes RHAENYRA a threat to CHILDREN. Alicent hates RHAENYRA for being UNDEDICATED so to protect her CHILDREN she becomes an UNDEDICATED wife to Viserys.  

Then in episode eight she realizes for her thoughts to align with her emotions her behavior has to alter. First she disowns her eldest son and second she mends ties with Rhaenyra. Now she is a loyal wife and friend. 

Putting aside the jumbled speech Viserys gives on his death bed which is atrocious writing in of itself, lets take for granted Alicent believes his dying wish was to see Aegon on the throne. Now in order to be loyal to her husband she must be disloyal to her friend and forgive the son she had just disowned. 

So she goes to the council chamber and is SHOCKED to find out their was a plot underway to overthrow Rhaenyra.   

Thought: "I am a good wife." 

Emotion: "I love Rhaenyra." 

Behavior: "I hate Rhaenyra." 

Here we come to what the Bard was talking about in reference to Alicent being whitewashed. Rather than be an active member of the conspiracy she is now a passive bystander supporting it through her behavior but not through any emotional consent. 

This means Alicent no longer has agency, she is no longer affecting the plot but implicitly condoning the coup through inaction. Therefore she is given (we presume) some moral capital by being reluctant to go against Rhaenyra and is given further goodwill by having her actions be derived by her self-perception as a good wife. 

That would work except her reluctance in overthrowing Rhaenyra does not come from her love for Rhaenyra. Because the reason she loves Rhaenyra post episode 8 was to reconcile her self-perception as a dedicated spouse to her behavior as an undedicated spouse. 

She hated Rhaenyra for over decade without reluctance. She was not conflicted in this hatred because she a.) rejected offers of protection for her children and b.) schemed against her own husband. Rhaenyra never acknowledged the rivalry as she was psychologically immune to the concept of her best friend hating her. 

So when they reconcile, Rhaenyra herself does not alter course. Whereas Alicent sought to destroy Rhaenyra the opposite was never true so during the toast there was nothing, either politically or privately, that Rhaenyra needed to change. 

In this episode Alicent: "sexually appeases a psychopath" and "establishes a known rapist as heir to the seven kingdoms." She has agency, the problem is that she is a schizophrenic so her emotional rejection works in tandem with her active participation. They do not signify internal conflict but a coherent mental imbalance. Her support of abject evil is not in spite of her emotional reluctance, but because of it.      

Now not only do the Greens' lack of motivation result in a general psychopathy throughout their ranks, but the blacks all suffer from too many motivations, as they have no internal conflict themselves because they are faced with deciding between morality and personal gain or immorality and personal loss making allies of every character within the group huddled around Dragonstone, depriving their philosophical differences of any outlet. 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[DMC]

18 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Rhaenys just knowingly butchered thousands of people

"Thousands" sounds like a Trump estimate.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 minutes ago, Darryk said:

I did notice that, yeah. You could argue everyone was in shock but yeah, it would have been better writing for the Kingsguard to form a shield in front of them.

Cristion had a real opportunity to become Crispin there.