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[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion


Ran
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25 minutes ago, Darryk said:

If they link the killing of the dragons to this moment then credit to them.

I would like there to be some more immediate consequences for it though ie. The Greens using it as propaganda against the Blacks. It was a really traumatic event for the people of King's Landing and the next episode should acknowledge that and not just continue as if nothing happened.

Rhaenys just knowingly butchered thousands of people so I hope the writers realised this makes her character a ruthless psycho (and someone who would've been a terrible queen) and weren't trying to make this into a "Girl Boss" moment. 

The reason I think this scene won't have the consequences it warrants is because I'm worried they did a D+D and just went for spectacle. "Creatively it made sense cause we wanted it to happen" etc. As much as I'm loving this series. GoT season 8 made me cynical and expect the worst. The writing on this show has been top notch but there's always that fear they'll jump the shark.

I think thousands of people is a bit ridiculous. It was a couple of dozen of people caught up when she burst out and the primary thing people will remember is how it made Aegon look weak.

It's not like she was going through the blast massacring everyone deliberately.

It was just she smashed through the ground.

Hell, some of the people might be alive with broken limbs.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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10 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

On paper, Aemond and Daeron are much better marital prizes.

Er...what?  Jace is the heir to the Iron Throne and Luke is heir to Driftmark.  Aemond and Daeron are in line for...absolutely nothing.  And Aegon already has a son.  If you're looking at it from a 50/50 proposition - or anywhere close - on which side is going to win, Jace and Luke are objectively better prizes.  That's inarguable.  Which may be why Alicent didn't bring it up - so as not to emphasize she has lesser sons to offer.

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

Er...what?  Jace is the heir to the Iron Throne and Luke is heir to Driftmark.  Aemond and Daeron are in line for...absolutely nothing.  And Aegon already has a son.  If you're looking at it from a 50/50 proposition - or anywhere close - on which side is going to win, Jace and Luke are objectively better prizes.  That's inarguable.  Which may be why Alicent didn't bring it up - so as not to emphasize she has lesser sons to offer.

Yes, this is very much a Green view.

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

Everyone fears it will lead to war.  The hope is to stop it. 

One way to stop it is to win it immediately. 

1 hour ago, DMC said:

.... even Otto and the small council hope to prevent the war by killing Rhaenyra and her family.  Apparently Rhaenys is "stupid" for not doing the same thing.

I rest my case... 

You said so yourself- Otto and his ilk are trying to prevent a horrible war by killing the pretenders at the outset.  The assumption being that killing certain people prevents thousands more from dying  ... K... 

Rhaenys knows that.  And if she acted accordingly... war won. Lives saved. Including her grandchildren.  This entire argument is if you take an action like this you PREVENT the war.  Otto knows that, and your argument is either that Rhaeyns knows that also, but is somehow forgiven for not acting accordingly OR that she does not know it. 

Which is it?

1 hour ago, DMC said:

And even if it does lead to war, there's no way to anticipate that will lead to the type of war with such casualties - as well as the losses of the dragons and her houses.

If its like a small war, she saves ten times the lives she immolates that stage.  

Any reasonable person would know this will not be a small war; SHE knows that.  Both sides have dragons- a weapon without any reasonable peer in the World.  With both sides so armed its very very reasonable to assume they will use them.  Against the other.  Thousands will die.  

The only way to prevent that is to cut the head off one of the two sides.  Rhaenys had this opportunity.  She did not take it.  Why?  Either because she is ignorant or unwilling.  Either way, she should  known better.  

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Not to mention, again, that she's not even sure she wants to participate in the war. 

That's head canon.  She is literally flying to Dragonstone; she JUST married her grandchildren to Rhaeyna's children; she knows she is tied to the Princess-Queen and she has known that for like quite some time.  To deny that is to deny the character as we know it.

I feel like people are making excuses.  The idea that she did not know is an excuse that is a slap in the face to the character.  

Edited by Rockroi
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54 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Have they even mentioned kinslaying on HOTD though? They didn’t mention the stigma around bastards until after Rhaenyra had three of them. And it’s not like GOT was consistent about either: no one batted an eye over Jon being crowned over his trueborn sister who was sitting right next to him, and no one mentioned him being a kinslayer after he killed his aunt.

Ok so show only watchers have an excuse to not understand that one reason of multiple reasons Rhaenys would have never done it.

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Just now, Rockroi said:

I rest my case... 

 

Ok then.  Your case is Rhaenys should respond to such a horrific act that always leads to horrible consequences in Martin-world and is generally a terribly stupid way to win the throne by doing the same.  Case closed indeed.

3 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

and your argument is either that Rhaeyns knows that also, but is somehow forgiven for not acting accordingly OR that she does not know it. 

My argument is she knows that's a horrific act she's not willing to do in order to "win" a war she hasn't even committed to participating in yet.

4 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

Any reasonable person would know this will not be a small war; SHE knows that. 

No, they don't, at all.  You're just assuming this because you know what happens.  Again, there hasn't been any type of serious war in 80 years.

5 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

That's head canon.

No, it's not.  It was asserted by the actress who plays Rhaenys.  Ran brought it up earlier today in this thread:

 

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10 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

We are told this episode that he watches kids fighting to the death for amusement. He raped a young maiden last episode and didn't even deny it to his mother.

Book Aegon always seemed like kind of a fuck up but they never explicitly mentioned any of this except for Mushroom, who was away at Dragonstone at this time.

Yeah, I really find what they've done with Aegon to be over the top. He can be a compelling antagonist without being a rapist/child fighting ring enthusiast. He would have been a much more interesting antagonist as a general spoiled fuck up who slides into cruelty than Joffrey part 2.

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

Ok then.  Your case is Rhaenys should respond to such a horrific act that always leads to horrible consequences in Martin-world and is generally a terribly stupid way to win the throne by doing the same.  Case closed indeed.

She literally just killed like 150 people to get away.  She's NOT above killing people.  

 

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

My argument is she knows that's a horrific act she's not willing to do in order to "win" a war she hasn't even committed to participating in yet.

She's committed.  Its silly that you do not see this. 

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

No, they don't, at all.  You're just assuming this because you know what happens.  Again, there hasn't been any type of serious war in 80 years.

Yet everyone is prepping for it - you yourself just said so.  So she cannot say "War? Never heard of it!" And put her head in the sand.  And she has not.

She could now win that war.  She chooses not to.  Why? NOBODY has given a good answer, 

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

No, it's not.  It was asserted by the actress who plays Rhaenys.  Ran brought it up earlier today in this thread:

HAHA!  Including her!  For all the reasons I said above.  

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I think people are forgetting about the scene Alicent and Rhaenys had before the ending on purpose. That conversation is there for a reason.

Rhaenys doesn't murder the Greens because she doesn't want to murder Alicent. And that's it. They both stare at each other for the whole scene, Rhaenys watches as Alicent puts herself in front of Aegon and Healena and closes her eyes in fear, and she decides to spare her life.

 

 

Edited by Ingelheim
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4 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Yeah, I really find what they've done with Aegon to be over the top. He can be a compelling antagonist without being a rapist/child fighting ring enthusiast. He would have been a much more interesting antagonist as a general spoiled fuck up who slides into cruelty than Joffrey part 2.

It seems to me the writers have some sort of conflict over who they want him to be, since some of his scenes show certain depth, but on the other hand he is doing all sorts of evil deeds off-screen.

Edited by Ingelheim
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2 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Rhaenys doesn't murder the Greens because she doesn't want to murder Alicent. And that's it. They both stare at each other for the whole scene, Rhaenys watches as Alicent puts herself in front of Aegon and Healena and closes her eyes in fear, and she decides to spare her life.

This is the obvious answer. 

And if its true (ts true, btw) its a terrible reason not to do it because you are guaranteeing that thousands die because she does not want to ... let a woman face the clear consequences of her bad actions.  Alicent is acting in a manner that will kill thousands.  Rhaenys can prevent it.  She chooses not to.  Bad move.  It could cost her her life.  Her grandchildren's lives; countless soldiers, lords, small folk.  etc etc, 

 

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1 minute ago, Rockroi said:

This is the obvious answer. 

And if its true (ts true, btw) its a terrible reason not to do it because you are guaranteeing that thousands die because she does not want to ... let a woman face the clear consequences of her bad actions.  Alicent is acting in a manner that will kill thousands.  Rhaenys can prevent it.  She chooses not to.  Bad move.  It could cost her her life.  Her grandchildren's lives; countless soldiers, lords, small folk.  etc etc, 

 

Well, I agree, but that's part of her characterization. People aren't perfect and make mistakes sometimes. Ryan Condal said on the Inside Episode something along the lines of "Some people are going to argue against her choice, but at the end of the day it's her choice and no one else's."

Rhaenys will end up regretting that, likely, but it's not easy to murder 10 people who are just defenseless. Rhaenys probably hasn't killed anybody in her entire life.

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6 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

This is the obvious answer. 

And if its true (ts true, btw) its a terrible reason not to do it because you are guaranteeing that thousands die because she does not want to ... let a woman face the clear consequences of her bad actions.  Alicent is acting in a manner that will kill thousands.  Rhaenys can prevent it.  She chooses not to.  Bad move.  It could cost her her life.  Her grandchildren's lives; countless soldiers, lords, small folk.  etc etc,

I mean, yes.

It's a mistake that gets Rhaenys killed.

I'm not sure why it being a mistake is....a mistake.

She will regret not doing it.

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8 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

She literally just killed like 150 people to get away.  She's NOT above killing people. 

We already discussed the difference between the two last night, I'm tiring of reiterating the same obvious points.

10 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

She's committed.  Its silly that you do not see this. 

It's silly you're assuming she is.  Talk about head canon.  Especially considering just last episode she refused to commit to Rhaenyra until Viserys unexpectedly entered the throne room making it clear which side was going to win.

11 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

Yet everyone is prepping for it - you yourself just said so.  So she cannot say "War? Never heard of it!" And put her head in the sand.  And she has not.

This is an absurd reduction of my argument that doesn't warrant a response.

12 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

She could now win that war.  She chooses not to.  Why? NOBODY has given a good answer, 

Plenty have.  You just choose to ignore them.

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I think there's a difference between Ned Stark warning Cersei, which is informed by his longstanding moral principle that children shouldn't be harmed, vs. Rhaenys randomly murdering 50+ innocents, staring down her enemies, and then flying off.

Like, I have nothing against Rhaenys not wanting to murder Alicent and co. at this point. But to come right after she just killed a bunch of people just felt very, very odd. Like a lot of the violence in HOTD, the whole scene felt random.

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Just now, C.T. Phipps said:

Why would Ned Stark warn Cersei?

And yet he did.

 

Again, people have to stop making my case for me; I don't need the help. 

Ned was a vastly inexperienced player set about by veteran players. His "mistake" is that he warns somebody bc he incorrectly assumes she will realize how bad her posture is. 

Rhaeyns does not have this excuse. She is incredibly experienced at this.  If your argument is that its okay for a very keen and aware character to act, instead, like an blissfully ignorant one ... 

... well... that's one way to see things, I guess... 

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1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Someone theorised that he has a thing for healthy feet because of his own bad foot, which is... interesting.

I think how they focused on his club foot there suggest that that is what they're going for. 

This was probably mentioned but I'm sure now they did cut an earlier foot fetish scene at their dinner. Like I said at the time it was weird that she removed her shoes, how often do you see characters do that on the show? Of course I wouldn't have thought anything of it if someone hadn't mentioned the leaks here. 

I was wondering are hand fetishes a thing? I've never heard of that. If you can answer without linking me to videos that would be great. 

Again I'm probably repeating someone else but as much as I liked the Eyyrk and Ayyrk stuff I realized today "here's two more characters they're properly introducing only for them to die in the next episode." 

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