[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

"Thousands" sounds like a Trump estimate.

Rewatching it, it were dozens or scores injured, not everybody interacting with the dragon's body would have died. She didn't breathe fire, after all.

Once the dust settles you don't see lots of corpses, and while Meleys hit quite a few people, there is no indication that she intentionally killed lots of people.

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Er...what?  Jace is the heir to the Iron Throne and Luke is heir to Driftmark.  Aemond and Daeron are in line for...absolutely nothing.  And Aegon already has a son.  If you're looking at it from a 50/50 proposition - or anywhere close - on which side is going to win, Jace and Luke are objectively better prizes.  That's inarguable.  Which may be why Alicent didn't bring it up - so as not to emphasize she has lesser sons to offer.

I agree that Alicent should have tried to make that offer - although it would have been pointless anyway, since the girls seemed to be quite taken by their cousins even before they were formally betrothed. Not to mention that both would likely gladly take out Aemond's second eye.

The notion that they are 'better matches', though, is ridiculous and seems to feel into false Targaryen supremacy propaganda that only Targaryens who look Valyrian are well and proper Targaryens.

Jace is in line for the throne, and Luke will succeed to the richest lordship in the Realm and command the largest fleet.

Alicent's younger sons will hold neither lands nor titles unless the king in his magnimity creates some minor lordship for them. They will live of an allowance granted to them by the king. Without the generosity of the Crown Aemond could most likely not even feed his monstrously large dragon.

Although, of course, Alicent could have made better offers - lands and titles and money for Rhaenys and her kin, for instance.

2 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

After we got Myseria rhapsodise over “Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses” today, what other quote from Holy Grail can we expect?

Mysaria isn't that bad. This is a fantasy world, not the real middle ages, and Mysaria is neither a peasant nor an uneducated woman. She could very well have read whatever political theory there exist in this world, not to mention she could have reached her own conclusions about how power works. Like Varys does. Her little speech there isn't that different from Varys' speech about power as a shadow on the wall. And she is not wrong. Especially in a city a ruler residing there is always at the mercy of the people. They can hound him out of the city and/or depose him. That happened rather often in the middle ages

And, you know, in the end we see the truth of Mysaria's words: It is not Alicent or Otto or the septon who anoints him that makes Aegon king. It is the people who are cheering him. When they cheer him he realizes that not only can be king ... but that he is king now.

Her take on reducing suffering of the children exploited for the fun of degenerates like Aegon is also well in line with 'the good mobster' character like Vito Corleone who put on certain restrictions on how far organized crime should go. I don't see much difference there, and one expects that the blatant attack on Mysaria's manse is going to trigger an equally ruthless reaction. What they do with her as the series progresses is difficult to say, but she can still do quite a few of the ugly things she does for her own reasons.

[chrisdaw]

This week it seemed was supposed to be about Alicent trying to find a peaceful way out. Then Rhaenys has the chance to blow everyone up but stays her hand. Next week Rhaenyra will probably think about going a peaceful way too but then Aemond does a man thing killing whichever Strong it is, and the moral of the story is the women wanted peace and this all would have worked out if not for the bloody men being men.

Which is eh, kind of shit, contemporary girl power fighting the patriarchy stuff but whatever. The writing is not particularly good in this instance and has fallen away somewhat.

But GRRM spent a not insignificant amount of page time explaining what makes Jaime Jaime, Bloodraven Bloodraven, Tywin Tywin etc, and it's exemplary writing. For people to think Rhaenys would not just jump into that company but eclipse them with the darkest deed inworld is disheartening.

Edited October 18, 2022 by chrisdaw

[Rockroi]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Rewatching it, it were dozens or scores injured, not everybody interacting with the dragon's body would have died. She didn't breathe fire, after all

That place is PACKED with people; solid stone is thrown for quite a distance and that dragon is just lurching over people.  People fall into the hole, and many others are slammed with that tail.  We are talking about people with no protection or armor, caught completely off guard, thrown in the air, hurled by the dragon, slammed with concrete.  Then people start running for the door so any more are trampled etc.  

One Hundred dead is a low estimate. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Rockroi

[Lord Varys]

28 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I think how they focused on his club foot there suggest that that is what they're going for. 

Could be why they ended up associating Larys with feet, but just because you have issues with your own foot you don't develop a foot fetish. Also, of course, it is, presumably, royal female feet he gets off on, so that's clearly a sexual thing, and one that's also intimately connected to Alicent. Larys should be able to jerk off to all the common feet he can buy as Lord of Harrenhal, but he seems to be exclusively interested in royal feet.

28 minutes ago, RumHam said:

This was probably mentioned but I'm sure now they did cut an earlier foot fetish scene at their dinner. Like I said at the time it was weird that she removed her shoes, how often do you see characters do that on the show? Of course I wouldn't have thought anything of it if someone hadn't mentioned the leaks here. 

I still think they may have cut some stuff there, but even if they didn't the directing is now pretty weird. The way to properly build this up would have been to have Larys stare at/be interested in (young) Alicent's feet, and show that Alicent recognizes this. Then we could have had a scene like the dinner where she deliberately takes off her shoes to turn him on, followed by the scene we got now.

The way it is it is just odd as hell that Alicent would take off her shoes during the dinner scene. It kind of implies that he either approached her about this, or she caught up on his specific interest without the writers telling the audience. This is kind of weird because this kind of thing is not something either party likely openly talked about. They can scheme and exchange information together, but neither seems to be willing or capable to actually openly address the sexual nature of their meetings.

I must also say that the way they depicted is kind of wrong. Alicent is clearly and visibly uncomfortable with this thing. But she is the queen. So why does she do this? The man is sucking up to her, not the other way around. She never gives the impression that she needs Larys for anything.

So a better take could have been if she actually kind of enjoyed this. Which could have worked if it was more a D/s setting rather than an almost antiseptical 'Guy jerks off to a picture of beautiful feet' scenario.

28 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Again I'm probably repeating someone else but as much as I liked the Eyyrk and Ayyrk stuff I realized today "here's two more characters they're properly introducing only for them to die in the next episode." 

I liked the stuff on priciple, but there was too little focus on this thing, and them not using the names often enough. I guess Errky was the guy walking away from the sept, but it was never confirmed.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

So why does Aemond say that he is next in line for the throne when that's very obviously not the case?

[RumHam]

5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

So why does Aemond say that he is next in line for the throne when that's very obviously not the case?

Vaemond did something similar. The writers might just be confused. 

I keep forgetting to notice or ask, is the Baratheon stag crowned? I know on Game of Thrones they established it was "now that Robert is king."   

[Caligula_K3]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Could be why they ended up associating Larys with feet, but just because you have issues with your own foot you don't develop a foot fetish. Also, of course, it is, presumably, royal female feet he gets off on, so that's clearly a sexual thing, and one that's also intimately connected to Alicent. Larys should be able to jerk off to all the common feet he can buy as Lord of Harrenhal, but he seems to be exclusively interested in royal feet.

 

After I was done laughing because the scene was so ridiculous, my next thought was that it was just insanely tacky to have the clubfooted character have a foot fetish. Like... come on. He's already such a Richard III stereotype without adding this.

 

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

After we got Myseria rhapsodise over “Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses” today, what other quote from Holy Grail can we expect?

Is it that dissimilar to Varys's "power resides where men believe it resides"?

[butterweedstrover]

2 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Is it that dissimilar to Varys's "power resides where men believe it resides"?

Oh it's very different. The language is similar but they mean two completely different things. 

[DMC]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Also the kingsguard is bloody useless. A goddamn dragon is facing off against your king, and his mother has to shield him because none of you will step up? Cersei would have had their heads.

While this is hard to argue, Alicent does order Cole to "get to Helaena" right as she stands in front of Aegon.  So, for once, we can't blame Cole.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

19 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Vaemond did something similar. The writers might just be confused.    

I mean, Aemond's entire story in this episode was about his kingly ambition. They're obviously going somwhere with it, but where? Is it foreshadowing of him becoming regent?

[BlackLightning]

5 hours ago, apovsic said:

I don't know if this is sarcasm or not, but if I offend you, sorry, I'm pretty grumpy right now, cause the scene didn't sit well with me and also it's quite late here (so I should probably head to bed).

I'm not being sarcastic.

4 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The people of King's Landing eventually turn against dragons and the lack of killing the Greens results in Rhaenys death.

I'm not sure why people don't think this will have consequences.

Keep in mind that most viewers, by in large, don't know what's going to happen to Rhaenys and the dragons.

They're comparing this to season 8 because they think that these actions have no consequences. Honestly that's D&D's fault and Condal is just inheriting the bad faith of that.

The Rhaenys scene and the Daemon scene from episode 3 illustrate the Toland girl's ominous warning that "wherever the dragons danced, the people died."

The show is doing more to set up a massive uprising than GoT did when the Faith took over King's Landing.

 

 

[Rockroi]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

While this is hard to argue, Alicent does order Cole to "get to Helaena" right as she stands in front of Aegon.  So, for once, we can't blame Cole.

I think that much of this discussion could have been avoided had the people on the dais acted like real people.  The KG would have- irrespective of any calls to the contrary - removed the King from the Dias; the Septon and several others would have outright fled.  Cole would have grabbed Alicent and done the same.  

If the "target rich environment" suddenly has people dispersed - and especially if the King is behind significant cover - than Rheaneys immolating people to and fro becomes far less efficient and people can escape.  Even if she gets the King, if the Queen, the Queen Regent and Aemon are still alive, you still have a war.

I found it unrealistic for everyone to be looking into the maw of a second-generation Dragon and thinking "Naw, it'll be fine."  

[RumHam]

19 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I mean, Aemond's entire story in this episode was about his kingly ambition. They're obviously going somewhere with it, but where? Is it foreshadowing of him becoming regent?

I don't know. In the books we only get that one bit about how he said the crown looked better on him, but he never called himself king. They've had to fill in most of these characters who are just sketched in the books. I love what they've done with Aemond. They easily could have made him a petulant monster but instead he's Daemon 2.0. Daemon had Daemon been been capable of self control. 

 

 

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

The KG would have- irrespective of any calls to the contrary

It's totally in character that Cole followed Alicent's order.  There appears to be only one other KG on the dais (three of them, including Westerling, may well have already fled the city - but that still leaves four counting Cole, which begs the question where the hell are the other two).  Can't tell who he is, but yeah, you'd think he'd immediately go to Aegon.  And yes, certainly you'd think the rest of the small council and septons would just fucking flee.  Aemond wouldn't though.  And Otto's trying to scream orders to allow Rhaenys to escape.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, Rockroi said:

... except ... for the 100-150 she killed in the prior 30 seconds...

Yes, the ten or so people she didn't intend to kill?

What about them?

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

So why does Aemond say that he is next in line for the throne when that's very obviously not the case?

You mean in the conversation where he's very obviously feeling Criston Cole out for killing/abandoning his brother?

Where he cuts ONE WORD off from "I should be king"?

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[DMC]

It was mentioned earlier that Alicent and Helaena look almost the same age.  Definitely agree, so looking it up the actresses are indeed only five years apart.  The funniest thing, though, is that Aegon is only 14 months younger than Alicent.  It's pretty weird they cast a 28 year old to be the mother of three adult children.  It's like the opposite of all those high school movies/shows starting with Grease where you had actors in their thirties playing teens in high school.

[Raksha 2014]

20 hours ago, Rockroi said:

I find it weird that you think that was an "accident."  There is a difference between wanton/reckless behavior and an accident.  She knew or should have known that if she breaks through a the floor that thousands of people are standing on with a  dragon... people are going to die.  And she killed them.  Its either murder or manslaughter.  Either way, she's terrible for doing that and any attempt to mitigate it is "whataboutism." 

And btw - many of us thought Larys was a shit for killing his own brother and father and said so.  

No, no- its perfectly reasonable when you escape to kill hundreds of people.  Its totally cool.  

See, if that was the end of it - if she was really that way - then I would be okay with it.  I would get that she would need to escape.  

But she then faces down the enemy and ... what?  She has a chance to end the whole war, save all her grandchildren and ensure her and her family's safety. She does not "kill or be killed" 

So which is it?  Is she "kill or be killed" or is she wise and merciful (who had just killed like 150 innocent people)?  You can have one or the other, but not both.

I think the show wanted it to be both.  And that's bad storytelling.  

 

To escape danger in the streets of King's Landing and very possible recapture, Rhaenys had justifiable reason to find and free her dragon.  Once she had done so, unfortunately killing smallfolk in the process, there was no more immediate reason to kill anyone, much less her own kindred, however treasonous Aegon was, or the High Septon of the Faith.  It could be that Rhaenys hoped that her refusal to slaughter Aegon might deter the Greens from retaliating against her own grandchildren and Rhaenyra's children (fat chance!, but she might have thought so).  In any case, Rhaenys at least in that moment scorned to take on the mantle of a Kinslayer.  And she will have to live and die with her decision.  

[Daeron the Daring]

Well, I guess we know what those marble balls are for at the Small Council.

I mean, damn, they looks sharp, but not that sharp.