[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

36 minutes ago, DMC said:

Just Daeron's.

Yeah.  Do dragons do kidnappings though?  That kinda seems like Lennie with a puppy.

Didn’t Daenerys’s dragons grab people with their feet when she rescued them from beyond the Wall?

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Didn’t Daenerys’s dragons grab people with their feet when she rescued them from beyond the Wall?

I think so, but I wasn't counting that.

ETA:  Also, they can definitely grab people with their feet, pick them, etc., but my point about "Lennie with a puppy" is can Meleys make the flight to Dragonstone or Driftmark holding Aemond without crushing him?

Edited October 18, 2022 by DMC

[IFR]

7 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Rhaenys had to get Meleys to even the odds. Leaving without her would have given the Greens another weapon. Not killing everyone on the dais shows power, and lack of desperation.

Knowing where the story goes it’s easy to say just go Mad King and burn them all.

But from Rhaenys’s perspective, having her dragon break out of the dragon pit and not kill the usurpers, who, by the way, forced all those small folk into the dragon pit in the first place, will look magnanimous seeing as she had a choice.

Everyone knows dragons are going to be dragons, and I doubt there will be universal blame laid on Rhaenys.

Here is what makes it bad writing. First, the improbability of the event. Rhaenys should have died pulling that stunt. She should have either been captured by guards at the pit, or crushed against the roof of the pit as the dragon initially tried to break through, or crushed by the collapsing stone. Her plan required her to be incredibly lucky. It speaks to a character's lack of intelligence if they go with the plan that should be all but impossible to succeed.

At no point did the writers in any way try to cover themselves by coming up with a reason for her to not use the standard exit of the dragon pit, so presumably that would be available. Even if it was closed and guarded in any way, no way would it have been more difficult than vertically crashing through the several tons of stone. And there were many guards at the king's ceremony, of course.

Second, Rhaenys deliberately chose to kill many, many people for the chance at a stare down. For all she knew, before bursting through the floor, one of her relatives might have moved from the last time she saw them, possibly to a point where they fell through the collapsing floor and died - also, the entire floor could have collapsed (a real risk) potentially killing everyone at the ceremony. So she actively risked their lives for a stare down, when she could have simply flown off. So much for her consideration for her family.

Ultimately, she killed a bunch of men, women (including mothers) and children in a high risk maneuver to randomly glare at some people.

With such a dumb, high stakes maneuver, if she was intelligent at all she would have roasted them. One can argue that not doing so is consistent with her character because she wouldn't want to risk family (even though she is now sparing those who are of direct risk to her family, and as pointed out early, she already put her family's lives in jeopardy by flying through the floor). But the writers manufactured this sequence. They put Rhaenys in a situation which makes her needlessly sadistic and an idiot because they wanted a shocking scene at the end of episode 9. It deflates any sense that the throne was "stolen" from her because she's morally on the level of the likes of Gregor Cleagane or the Mad King, and the realm was incredibly lucky to have Viserys in power instead of her.

It didn't have to happen this way, and it's poor form and the writers' fault that they chose bombast without considering the absurdities this scene creates.

Edited October 18, 2022 by IFR

[Theon is dead]

Is the dark skinned girl that works for Mysaria, Nettles?

Edited October 18, 2022 by Theon is dead

[C.T. Phipps]

There's no reason for the doors not to be blocked for the Dragon Pit, necessitating this way.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 10/17/2022 at 5:28 PM, Ran said:

A lot of people have read her as now having made the choice to be on the side of the Blacks... but things make a lot more sense, in a way, if she has in fact only acted for the freedom of herself and her dragon, and then chooses to essentially remain neutral by leaving the Greens to live and departing King's Landing, presumably to Driftmark to reunite with the Sea Snake and consult with him.

But how can she remain neutral if her granddaughters are betrothed to Rhaenyra's sons?

Edited October 18, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But how can she remain neutral if her granddaughters are betrothed to Rhaenyra's sons?

The marriages have not happened. Betrothals can be undone. New betrothals can be made. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Ran

[EggBlue]

it's become a routine by this point: a very good episode ending in idiocy. 

Aegon and Aemond's stories have been pretty good in these episodes and all 4 actors (teen and adult ) were brilliant. Tom Glynn-carney was a highlight for me in ep9. Aegon's coronation scene and Aegon's shift from doubt to joy and embracing kinghood could've been a perfect ending to the episode. I also loved Arryk and Errik's story.

Alicent turned from the Mean Girl in ep6 to the Mad Queen in ep7 to the tired mother missing her old friend she's been a bitch to in ep8 and a total idiot in ep9. I suppose they did this to make her a sympathetic character, but she's just turned out messy and incompetent. 

Rhaenys's final scene was the stupidest thing in the episode. we KNOW there's a dragon entrance to the dragonpit, if she was so merciful, why did she make a hole in the floor and killed hundreds of innocents, men, women, and children, in the process? though, I give the writers this, this sloppy killing of smallfolk will work well for the shepherd plot.

 

[Khloey]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Didn’t Daenerys’s dragons grab people with their feet when she rescued them from beyond the Wall?

No, Drogon landed on the rock in the middle of the lake (btw, it didn't look to be that big a rock for a dragon to land on but whatev') and people climb on his back.

[teej6]

27 minutes ago, Ran said:

The marriages have not happened. Betrothals can be undone. New betrothals can be made. 

Her granddaughters’ father is probably #2 on the Green’s hit list. She may not like him but she must see and recognize that. So by association, her granddaughters are at risk. Or does she expect them to disown their father?

[Lord Varys]

28 minutes ago, Ran said:

The marriages have not happened. Betrothals can be undone. New betrothals can be made. 

Rhaenys could try to unmake them ... but her granddaughters have a will of their own. She and Corlys can either throw in their lot with the Blacks or risk to lose the legacy Corlys wanted to build.

Sure enough, Alicent should have tried to suggest Aemond and Daeron for Baela and Rhaena, but it is pretty clear there is no chance that either girl would have agreed to break their betrothals and marry one of Alicent's brats. Especially not the guy who stole Vhagar.

Also, of course, the Daemon problem which would mean that the girls would have to be willing to abandon their dad to Otto's mercy. The Velaryons could still try to stay neutral in a succession war ... but if they were doing that they would abandon their family.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

Her granddaughters’ father is probably #2 on the Green’s hit list. She may not like him but she must see and recognize that. So by association, her granddaughters are at risk. Or does she expect them to disown their father?

They mostly hang out at Driftmark, with her and Corlys, based on ep 8. So I think her idea is that they aren't going to be given the choice of being involved.

Again, I'm just taking the pieces of what Best says and what the preview shows. At least at the start of 10, she appears to want to keep her family out of any war.

[butterweedstrover]

11 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

Alicent turned from the Mean Girl in ep6 to the Mad Queen in ep7 to the tired mother missing her old friend she's been a bitch to in ep8 and a total idiot in ep9. I suppose they did this to make her a sympathetic character, but she's just turned out messy and incompetent. 

 

 

How is she an idiot this episode? Alicent’s emotional reluctance is not reflected in her behavior.

She acts as fits a usurper, never veering off the path. Her thoughts are not in line with her emotions so it gives off the perception that she is acting indecisively but she is not. She does everything needed to crown Aegon as king. 

It seems idiotic because her character has no internal conflict yet is skeptical. This is not a sign however of internal struggles but rather the necessary incoherence to motivate her action. 
 

Her character needs to love Rhaenyra because she a dutiful wife. And she has to be a dutiful wife because Rhaenyra is not. And Rhaenyra cannot be a dutiful wife because if she were Alicent wouldn’t have valued overthrowing her above protecting her own children. 
 

There is no reason behind the Green movement as it is a result of schizophrenia (the separation of thought, emotion, and behavior) so all their numbers are filled with psychopaths. 
 

If this makes you happy, know the Blacks suffer more from this dynamic, stripped of their personality and philosophical distinctions.

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

They mostly hang out at Driftmark, with her and Corlys, based on ep 8.

Baela certainly lives on Driftmark as Rhaenys' ward, but I got the impression from episode 8 that Rhaena lived on Dragonstone - particularly from Rhaenyra bringing her when she offered the betrothals to Rhaenys and it definitely seemed she hadn't seen her grandmother in a while.

Anyway, the important thing to remember about episode 8 is Rhaenys still thinks Rhaenyra and Daemon killed Laenor, which likely would inform her ambivalence - at least at first - even with her granddaughters' betrothals.

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

Baela certainly lives on Driftmark as Rhaenys' ward, but I got the impression from episode 8 that Rhaena lived on Dragonstone - particularly from Rhaenyra bringing her when she offered the betrothals to Rhaenys and it definitely seemed she hadn't seen her grandmother in a while.

Good point! I forgot they were clearly in separate places.

But yeah, she's ambivalent about the whole thing anyways, so I'm not sure why she needs to feel bound by a betrothal to a branch of the family that may not be around for much longer... hard as it is to say.

IMO, her concern is the survival of the Velaryons. That means suggesting Baela and Rhaena come to Driftmark, and basically try to preserve neutrality.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, DMC said:

I think so, but I wasn't counting that.

ETA:  Also, they can definitely grab people with their feet, pick them, etc., but my point about "Lennie with a puppy" is can Meleys make the flight to Dragonstone or Driftmark holding Aemond without crushing him?

No clue.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, IFR said:

She should have either been captured by guards at the pit

The “guards” in the Dragonpit seem more like a monastic order dedicated to the care and preservation of the dragons themselves than guards loyal to a particular branch of the Targaryen family… but that’s my take.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[EggBlue]

8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

How is she an idiot this episode? Alicent’s emotional reluctance is not reflected in her behavior.

who said anything about her emotional reluctance? she is an idiot because she's been accusing Rhaenyra of high treason for 16 yrs and had been telling her children that Aegon will be king but even though SHE (and not Otto) was present in Kingslanding undermining Rhaenyra for the majority of this period, she is completely surprised to see other council members do not need her flimsy lucky excuse of Viserys's dying wish to prepare for Aegon's coronation. so, what was Alicent's plan, if Otto hadn't schemed beforehand? she is certain that Rhaenyra and Daemon won't bend the knee, yet, she thinks she can keep Aegon king and keep Rhaenyra alive. ummm... how?! 

8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

If this makes you happy, know the Blacks suffer more from this dynamic, stripped of their personality and philosophical distinctions.

I don't know why you have to make this a race between Blacks and Greens. we are talking about character writing. at least, I am. 

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Ran said:

Yep. We don't know Lyman's relation to Braxton. It's possible that he was Lyman's father (at the age of 16, in that case), but it's also possible that he was Braxton Beesbury's uncle. The latter certainly would make it easier to understand why he'd serve Jaeherys, if he felt his nephew earned his fate and, well, hey, now he succeeded his brother... the former, well, says a lot about the sort of man Lyman Beesbury was, I guess? There was no question that his son (in this scenario) had committed treason by despoiling the princess, and that he died in a fairly-conducted trial by combat, his guilt adjudged by the gods themselves.

I'd personally prefer a father-son relationship there, since the other scenario would mean that Braxton's father only had one child. Certainly possible, but not a preferred scenario. Lyman being Braxton's father would give the whole Stinger affair a really interesting background, making Lyman a truly exceptional character - either an ambitious cynic or a man with principles who approves of the king freeing him of a bad heir.

10 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

An interesting possibility is that when he was named Hand, Otto may have suggested to bring Lyman to the Council as some kind of compensation (Lyman was Otto's bannerman).

I'd prefer the reverse, in fact. That Lyman succeeded Martyn Tyrell and his wife as Master of Coin in the late 80s or early 90s, possibly being brought in by Prince Aemon or, if you go with a later scenario, Prince Baelon (the latter is kind of implied to have surrounded himself with new men as Hand, some of which may have eventually formed Viserys' Small Council), to then suggest Otto to become Hand. Although there is also Archmaester Vaegon to consider - Otto being particularly learned could mean that Vaegon and Otto became acquaintances or even friends back in Oldtown.

Unlike in the show, in the book Otto Hightower was called from Oldtown to court to take up the Handship - he wasn't already a courtier when Baelon died, like it is in the show.

In fact, we could even speculate that Otto and Lyman were cousins or in-laws - Otto's wife - or the wife of Otto's brother - could have easily enough been a daughter of Lyman's, or Lyman's first wife could have been a sister or aunt of Otto's. If there were such a connection between the two families, it could also help explain why Otto and Alicent allowed the old man to continue in his office ... but it would then also imply that there was no ugly Criston Cole murder of any kind, but they simply threw him into a cell to ensure he would not endanger the coup.

Otto's appointment in the book only works if there were powerful people at court pushing for his appointment. He is from a great house, but merely a younger son, and he is not at court already. If there is no clear candidate for an important office at Hand, folks on the council will put for their own relatives and friends. The heads of the great houses will also be generally considered, but somebody like Martyn Tyrell's wife had to be suggested and pushed through by a Highgarden insider like Barth.

[C.T. Phipps]

47 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Her granddaughters’ father is probably #2 on the Green’s hit list. She may not like him but she must see and recognize that. So by association, her granddaughters are at risk. Or does she expect them to disown their father?

I believe this is essentially why Rhaenys is rolling her eyes with Alicent their entire conversation.

If Alicent was smart, she would have married Aemond to one.

Edited October 18, 2022 by C.T. Phipps