[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion

[C.T. Phipps]

23 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The “guards” in the Dragonpit seem more like a monastic order dedicated to the care and preservation of the dragons themselves than guards loyal to a particular branch of the Targaryen family… but that’s my take.

I admit, this was my thought.

Rhaenys: Step aside.

Dragon Tender: Yes, holy one.

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, Ran said:

Good point! I forgot they were clearly in separate places.

But yeah, she's ambivalent about the whole thing anyways, so I'm not sure why she needs to feel bound by a betrothal to a branch of the family that may not be around for much longer... hard as it is to say.

IMO, her concern is the survival of the Velaryons. That means suggesting Baela and Rhaena come to Driftmark, and basically try to preserve neutrality.

Since Baela is not with Rhaenys in KL in episode 9, she must have accompanied her betrothed Jacaerys to Dragonstone ... and is thus in Rhaenyra's power. If push came to shove Rhaenyra and Daemon could even use the girls as hostages against Rhaenys and Corlys ... not that they would do that, in light of the actual family relations.

But Baela and Rhaena are now both with their father and stepmother, and one imagines that they would decide what they do and where they go and who they marry. Not to mention the girls themselves having a mind of their own. They seem to look like grown women in episode 8.

7 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

who said anything about her emotional reluctance? she is an idiot because she's been accusing Rhaenyra of high treason for 16 yrs and had been telling her children that Aegon will be king but even though SHE (and not Otto) was present in Kingslanding undermining Rhaenyra for the majority of this period, she is completely surprised to see other council members do not need her flimsy lucky excuse of Viserys's dying wish to prepare for Aegon's coronation. so, what was Alicent's plan, if Otto hadn't schemed beforehand? she is certain that Rhaenyra and Daemon won't bend the knee, yet, she thinks she can keep Aegon king and keep Rhaenyra alive. ummm... how?!

I don't think it is a given Alicent must have been the instigator or co-conspirator of a planned coup just because she also wants Aegon to be king.

For one, because her dad and his cronies may not have trusted her with such information. Two, because Alicent herself may have refused to think about what to do exactly when Viserys died, hoping that the situation would be resolved by her being able to change the succession in Aegon's favor.

After all, it seems that Alicent does believe that Rhaenyra would accept a changed succession if it came from her father.

[teej6]

12 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Dragon Tender: 

 sounds like something you’d order off a fastfood menu

 

[butterweedstrover]

44 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

who said anything about her emotional reluctance? she is an idiot because she's been accusing Rhaenyra of high treason for 16 yrs and had been telling her children that Aegon will be king but even though SHE (and not Otto) was present in Kingslanding undermining Rhaenyra for the majority of this period, she is completely surprised to see other council members do not need her flimsy lucky excuse of Viserys's dying wish to prepare for Aegon's coronation. so, what was Alicent's plan, if Otto hadn't schemed beforehand? she is certain that Rhaenyra and Daemon won't bend the knee, yet, she thinks she can keep Aegon king and keep Rhaenyra alive. ummm... how?!  

Her reaction is equal to her emotional reluctance. She has schizophrenia so she responds with her emotional position which is that she loves Rhaenyra.  

But both her behavior and her thought process are in line with the conspiracy so this surprise does not manifest itself into any perceivable change of course making it fundamentally superfluous rather than idiotic. It would be idiotic if she tried to stop the coup she herself was planning for over a decade, that is not what is happening. 

She (Alicent) needs to be surprised to go through with Crowning Aegon as king because she is doing it as a dutiful wife, just as she had opposed Rhaenyra incessantly for her lack of duty.  

 

44 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I don't know why you have to make this a race between Blacks and Greens. we are talking about character writing. at least, I am. 

Because for some reason people here think the problem is Alicent isn't evil enough or that her confusion/reluctance is the whitewashing of her character by turning her from a schemer into a gullible idiot. 

My point is this lack of motivation is not idiotic in nature, it is schizophrenic but such that all her actions become very deliberate and evil. It gives the appearance of nuance but underlines how absent she is of desire, with all her motivations drawing upon her self-perception as a loyal friend and wife. 

So from a narrative perspective, the issue isn't that the Greens are being given more depth by Alicent's reluctance to confront/kill Rhaenyra, but that the conflict has become more shallow or, possibly, nonexistent. Which isn't good for any of the characters.  

Edited October 18, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Since Baela is not with Rhaenys in KL in episode 9, she must have accompanied her betrothed Jacaerys to Dragonstone ... and is thus in Rhaenyra's power.

Agreed.  What I would expect Rhaenys to do next is to fly to Dragonstone to inform Rhaenyra of what happened in KL - she at least deserves that - and ask for her/Daemon's leave to take the girls back to Driftmark for their safety, at least for the time being.  Really it doesn't matter where the girls are for this request - as their father Rhaenys should ask for his leave to do so regardless.

[The Bard of Banefort]

So apparently people hate the screenwriter, Sara Hess, now? Some of it looks to be because she said Daemon is a a monster, which—you go, girl, I’m right there with you. But they’re also comparing her to D&D lol.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Agreed.  What I would expect Rhaenys to do next is to fly to Dragonstone to inform Rhaenyra of what happened in KL - she at least deserves that - and ask for her/Daemon's leave to take the girls back to Driftmark for their safety, at least for the time being.  Really it doesn't matter where the girls are for this request - as their father Rhaenys should ask for his leave to do so regardless.

I'd be surprised if Rhaenys and the girls actually left Dragonstone - it seems more likely to me that Corlys is going to show up there. But, of course, the Velaryons have yet to declare for Rhaenyra, just as Rhaenyra herself has yet to decide that she wants the throne and that she is going to challenge Aegon.

[Lord Varys]

In general one should keep in mind that there are hawks and doves in both parties - we have Greens pushing for war from the start, but the women push the terms thing through (Alicent and Helaena in the book). We have methodical Otto trying to prevent or limit the scale of the war by getting as many houses on their side as possible (and have outsiders like the Triarchy deal with the Blacks), we have Criston Cole advocating for a more ruthless approach, and eventually we have Aemond and Aegon II himself doing stupid and self-destructive things.

With the Blacks it is similar - we have Rhaenyra who is reluctant and rarely does anything, we have Daemon who starts as a cautious guy doing pretty much nothing of substance, either, we have people pushing for an attack on KL, and we have people advocating for peace and reconciliation.

(Corlys Velaryon, especially, is a joke in the book, constantly whining about peace and insisting on that silly Aegon-Jaehaera match.)

Rhaenyra is later portrayed as steering a middle course between Daemon's 'they must all be destroyed' approach, and Corlys' advice 'you have to pardon everybody'.

We have to wait and see how they portray the Blacks, but one imagines they will be portrayed as more nuanced as well.

One expects that show Daemon won't have much of the quite uncharacteristic restraint book Daemon suddenly shows at the beginning of the war.

[Caligula_K3]

36 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

So apparently people hate the screenwriter, Sara Hess, now? Some of it looks to be because she said Daemon is a a monster, which—you go, girl, I’m right there with you. But they’re also comparing her to D&D lol.

Jesus fuck, I hate fan/media culture on the internet these days. Writing a mediocre or poor script or having a different interpretation of a character doesn't make someone an idiot or a monster or a hack or worthy of hate. That applies to D&D, Sara Hess and the rest of the writing team for this show, writers of the Rings of Power, everyone.

[Aladdin]

I find the idea that adults Dragons would have guards silly. It’s a DRAGON not a Rolls Royce. Not like a thief is going to show up and make off with Meleys. 

The Keepers in the show seem to be more like zoo keepers than guards, and they seem to be doing their own thing. That is to say that they have no inherent loyalty to a political entity but rather have some sort of religious reverence for dragons and their riders.

The fact that Rhaenys was able to get to Meleys is very plausible. Personally I could have done without that final scene but I don’t think that aspect of it is an issue.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Tha_Prince_Ali

[Ran]

People are super tribal about this show for some reason. In some senses, the Black vs. Green, Alicent vs. Rhaenyra, Daemon vs Aemond thing is great for stirring intense feelings about the show, but it's not great for actual discussion.

As to Hess's remark, you know, I think to me James Hibberd's leading question was something that her agreement with -- specifically in reading a purely cynical take on Daemon's moving to his brother's side and helping him -- should not be taken too much to heart. I think she's agreeing with the general sense that Daemon is a pretty shitty father, brother, and husband, which I think are all true, but not necessarily with the specific idea that he only acted out of self-interest in that moment. Because if you see him in the scene at Viserys's bedside, it's quite clear that whatever differences they have had, however much he thinks his brother isn't a good king or didn't treat him right, he's clearly bothered by how terribly ill and in pain his brother is.

To me, despite all the sturm und drang of their relationship, Daemon has fundamentally always cleaved towards loyalty to his brother, when push comes to shove. Maybe not by a straight path, maybe sometimes blinkered by his own hopes and ambitions, but still, to me that moment felt fundamentally true to what their relationship is. 

Matt Smith certainly seemed to articulate that idea, that he cares about the family and especially Viserys, when Javi Marcos of Los Siete Reinos and I talked to him at the Amsterdam Premiere:

 

  

12 minutes ago, Tha_Prince_Ali said:

I find the idea that adults Dragons would have guards silly. It’s a DRAGON not a Rolls Royce. Not like a thief is going to show up and make off with Meleys. 

I think the Dragonkeepers are there to protect the young dragons more than the adults, yes, but even the adults can be in danger if people are determined. It's true the show has changed them a lot.

Specifically as it concerns this episode, I believe the idea is that they would have tried to prevent Rhaenys from getting to Meleys, so it's more stopping her from getting to her dragon than protecting her dragon. But the fact that they decided to have a huge coronation there could have led to the guards getting distracted, pulled away, whatever.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Ran

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

But the fact that they decided to have a huge coronation there could have led to the guards getting distracted, pulled away, whatever.

Yeah if there was ever a time she could get to Meleys unnoticed, that would've been it.  That's a pretty standard distraction trope.

[TormundsWoman]

3 hours ago, Ran said:

The marriages have not happened. Betrothals can be undone. New betrothals can be made. 

Thats true. But regardless of what the actress herself says (which you posted previously, many thanks for that!) and besides the betrothals’ flexibility to be unmade, there’s the scene with Alicent.
 

Rhaenys herself responded to  Alicent when asked to pledge herself to Aegon and renounce the Velaryon original pledge to Rhaenyra as heir, that “the word of my house is not fickle”. 
 

What I’m saying is, people are not really jumping to conclusions here out of nowhere. It’s in the script.

Does the Non-Dracarys mean Rhaenys herself doesn’t agree with the pledge her husband made while Viserys was alive or that she herself wants to stay neutral? I honestly don’t think that’s posible not even in her mind as of that moment.

Perhaps she thinks the throne claim could be negotiated since Alicent seems to think so.

As Alicent pleaded: “Gently guide” the rulers of their factions to moderate action. I think that’s most likely what was going on, but what is considered fact in universe so far, even for the audiences is that her House is definitely pledged to Rhaenyra. Unless or until Corlys or his successor (should he die) decides otherwise.

[The Bard of Banefort]

26 minutes ago, Ran said:

People are super tribal about this show for some reason. In some senses, the Black vs. Green, Alicent vs. Rhaenyra, Daemon vs Aemond thing is great for stirring intense feelings about the show, but it's not great for actual discussion.

As to Hess's remark, you know, I think to me James Hibberd's leading question was something that her agreement with -- specifically in reading a purely cynical take on Daemon's moving to his brother's side and helping him -- should not be taken too much to heart. I think she's agreeing with the general sense that Daemon is a pretty shitty father, brother, and husband, which I think are all true, but not necessarily with the specific idea that he only acted out of self-interest in that moment. Because if you see him in the scene at Viserys's bedside, it's quite clear that whatever differences they have had, however much he thinks his brother isn't a good king or didn't treat him right, he's clearly bothered by how terribly ill and in pain his brother is.

To me, despite all the sturm und drang of their relationship, Daemon has fundamentally always cleaved towards loyalty to his brother, when push comes to shove. Maybe not by a straight path, maybe sometimes blinkered by his own hopes and ambitions, but still, to me that moment felt fundamentally true to what their relationship is. 

Matt Smith certainly seemed to articulate that idea, that he cares about the family and especially Viserys, when Javi Marcos of Los Siete Reinos and I talked to him at the Amsterdam Premiere:

 

  

I think the Dragonkeepers are there to protect the young dragons more than the adults, yes, but even the adults can be in danger if people are determined. It's true the show has changed them a lot.

Specifically as it concerns this episode, I believe the idea is that they would have tried to prevent Rhaenys from getting to Meleys, so it's more stopping her from getting to her dragon than protecting her dragon. But the fact that they decided to have a huge coronation there could have led to the guards getting distracted, pulled away, whatever.

Re: tribalism, part of it is the nature of fandom these days, part of it is the show’s own doing. GOT has always had a sports team like appeal, with people picking which houses they like and rooting for them to win the Iron Throne. Unfortunately, concerning the two female leads, that means HOTD has become a battle-of-the-bitches (or battle-of-the-long-suffering-martyrs, from an alternate perspective).

[Lord Varys]

There is little reason to assume that anyone was concerned with Rhaenys getting to Meleys, anyway. We don't even know that anyone of note knew she was gone, considering the entire court went to the coronation in the Dragonpit.

37 minutes ago, Ran said:

To me, despite all the sturm und drang of their relationship, Daemon has fundamentally always cleaved towards loyalty to his brother, when push comes to shove. Maybe not by a straight path, maybe sometimes blinkered by his own hopes and ambitions, but still, to me that moment felt fundamentally true to what their relationship is.

Daemon is only loyal to himself and, perhaps, Rhaenyra, at the end of the first season. When he returns from Pentos after what seems to have been a very long journey/exile he chose for himself and his family, his brother wants them to reconect ... but Daemon is just cold. He seems to have more feelings of hate for Otto Hightower left than positive feelings for his brother. And he is also not really particularly passionate with Rhaenyra. She throws herself at him and he takes her, but if he hadn't done it he wouldn't have instigated an affair nor suggested a marriage.

And he very much enjoys watching the fucked-up court of his brother, indicating he gets off on how bad a king Viserys turned out to be, how inept at creating a lasting bond among his family.

In episode 8 Viserys is more or less just a pawn for him and Rhaenyra to use to get what they want - Luke being confirmed as heir to Driftmark. Neither actually cares about what Viserys wants.

There is that touching moment when Daemon offers to help Viserys on the throne ... but he does that because he expects his brother to rule in Rhaenyra's favor. Daemon is also not concerned over the milk of the poppy for Viserys' sake - it is much better for him to drink it considering his dreadful pain - but simply because an addled Viserys cannot help him and Rhaenyra.

I mean, it cannot be helped - Rhaenyra and Daemon handed Viserys to Alicent's and Otto's mercy. They knew he was very sick, suffering from an illness that would eventually kill him ... and yet they didn't bother visiting him for six years, apparently. That's not the behavior of a dutiful daughter nor the behavior of a loving brother.

The show could have made this more plausible if they had bothered showing how the Daemon-Rhaenyra marriage was received in KL and Driftmark - it could have led to Viserys working himself into a tantrum considering that Daemon clearly was the husband he did not want for Rhaenyra, and Alicent and Otto would have only fueled whatever bad feelings he may have had over that.

But it is still quite nonsensical to assume that Rhaenyra-Daemon had used the births of both Aegon and Viserys to return to court to show off their son(s) to Viserys and regain his favor that way. Waiting for a succession crisis to force them to go to the capital and then use that opportunity to show off their children seems like a completely nonsensical decision.

6 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Re: tribalism, part of it is the nature of fandom these days, part of it is the show’s own doing. GOT has always had a sports team like appeal, with people picking which houses they like and rooting for them to win the Iron Throne. Unfortunately, concerning the two female leads, that means HOTD has become a battle-of-the-bitches (or battle-of-the-long-suffering-martyrs, from an alternate perspective).

Part of that problem is that in the readership chose their sides even before we had any information about the Dance. I always liked Rhaenyra more, I guess because her son succeeded Aegon II, indicating that her side won in the end, and because a Targaryen woman rebelling against her own brother (who could easily enough have been her brother-husband at the time) seemed like a cool person.

We only get the full history of the Dance with FaB ... and when you read that closely there is pretty much no chance that you feel much sympathy for the Green gang.

This is why so many complain that George treated the Greens badly, that they are portrayed as 'too evil' - they feel they deserved better because they wanted both sides to be equally good/bad. Which would have never happened if we had gotten the full story earlier ... after all, nobody complains that Euron or Roose/Ramsay (of the Boltons, Freys, Lannisters, etc.) deserve better. They are what they are, which is, for the most part, ugly villains, whose motivations and actions speak for themselves.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Lord Varys

[Aladdin]

One thing this episode has emphasized for me is how dumb the storming of the Dragonpit is...

Like I really, really hate to use such negative language but it honestly was just one of the dumber scenes in the book. You could really see that George was straining to write around the existing lore that he has created ("how the hell do I get rid of all these dragons before I get to Aegon III??"). And it's one of those things I've believed would look 100x more implausible when you're watching it happen on screen instead of imagining it through text. Watching Meleys wade through a crowd of terrified peasants like they're ants confirmed that to me.

I think storming of the dragonpit is going to be ripe territory for some story expansion and rewrites in this show.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Tha_Prince_Ali

[Ran]

More of Matt Smith and his view of Daemon's love for Viserys, from the time of the previous episode:

 

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

More of Matt Smith and his view of Daemon's love for Viserys, from the time of the previous episode.

It really doesn't come across this way. In episode 7 he acts like a petulant child, pushing Viserys back because he, as the king, dared to offer him favors. It was 'Daemon being pissed that his brother wanted to save his ass on the Stepstones' all over again.

And in episode 8 he also cannot bring himself to actually express his alleged emotions in a way people could understand ... aside from the throne moment which is, of course, also self-serving.

[IFR]

2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I admit, this was my thought.

Rhaenys: Step aside.

Dragon Tender: Yes, holy one.

Otto: Ser Cole, it occurs to me that we take measures so that our prisoners do not escape. What is one method Targaryens are notorious about using against others?

Cole: Dragons?

Otto: Precisely. See that the dragons are guarded.

This is a conversation those who aren't extremely incompetent would have.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Specifically as it concerns this episode, I believe the idea is that they would have tried to prevent Rhaenys from getting to Meleys, so it's more stopping her from getting to her dragon than protecting her dragon. But the fact that they decided to have a huge coronation there could have led to the guards getting distracted, pulled away, whatever

This is exactly what I was thinking. Even more,  within this very show a dragon was "stolen" by Aemond, so this is something that should always be considered. You guard your nukes. That should go without saying, really. I think this should have been even more of an imperative, because apparently dragons breaking from their confines is super easy, barely an inconvenience.

Leaving this point as a vulnerability makes the Greens seem needlessly stupid.

If this were by design, fine, but it really seems that the writers went for a showstopper and didn't consider or care about all it entailed.

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

So apparently people hate the screenwriter, Sara Hess, now? Some of it looks to be because she said Daemon is a a monster, which—you go, girl, I’m right there with you. But they’re also comparing her to D&D lol.

Random internet nonsense. Everything is a scandal it seems. The media latches on to any vague thread of a controversy and amplifies it for clicks.

Hess to me seems like a perfectly capable writer. I think these misfires were a fault of the writers collectively in the planning stage.

I think this episode did have a lot of good writing, even with those unfortunate moments (I'd say Mysaria, warrior of justice, was another point I really disliked).

Edited October 18, 2022 by IFR

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It really doesn't come across this way. In episode 7 he acts like a petulant child, pushing Viserys back because he, as the king, dared to offer him favors.

I thought the show did an outstanding job showing Daemon's love and affection for Viserys (and of course vice versa) while still preserving Daemon being Daemon.  You see it in the pilot when Daemon's eavesdropping on the small council meeting, you see it when Corlys recruits him for the Stepstones, you see it when he returns at the beginning of episode 4, and, yes, you see it throughout episode 8.  He was a dick at the funeral/wake in episode 7, aye, but that's totally how he would express his resentment.  Perhaps it's because I personally can very much identify with such a relationship between brothers, but I thought it was pitch perfect.