Jump to content

[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion


Ran
 Share

Recommended Posts

Just now, DMC said:

I thought the show did an outstanding job showing Daemon's love and affection for Viserys (and of course vice versa) while still preserving Daemon being Daemon.  You see it in the pilot when Daemon's eavesdropping on the small council meeting, you see it when Corlys recruits him for the Stepstones, you see it when he returns at the beginning of episode 4, and, yes, you see it throughout episode 8.  He was a dick at the funeral/wake in episode 7, aye, but that's totally how he would express his resentment.  Perhaps it's because I personally can very much identify with such a relationship between brothers, but I thought it was pitch perfect.

Oh, I think the earlier episodes did a good job. It is just that you can also interpret things as Daemon's brotherly love having grown cold from the way how they presented it.

He no longer views himself as his brother's champion who attacks anyone who challenges him ... nor as a guy who would do anything in his power defend him.

He hands him over to the leeches he thinks will kill him.

The issue there is what we discussed earlier when I said it made little sense that Otto became Hand again without anybody entertaining alternatives.

It is much worse to just swallow that Rhaenyra and Daemon - who apparently both love Viserys (and are dependent on him to eventually succeed to the throne) - just avoid court for years and years.

That's inviting your enemies to pull something like the Vaemond stunt.

I mean, it is clear that they have to create the Dragonstone-KL dichotomy. That's a crucial part of the plot. But they do not do the necessary buildup for that. The book had Viserys rule that Rhaenyra reside on Dragonstone after the Aemond incident whilst Alicent and her children live at court. They could have kept that. Or they could have had Viserys make such a ruling after he learned about secret Daemon-Rhaenyra marriage. Alicent could have kept his anger alive afterwards ... and they could have not sent whatever letters of reconciliation he may have written or dictated as his health deteriorated further. In context, one imagines that once they started to operate on his face Viserys may have been concerned that he might die soon ... so why didn't he call Rhaenyra-Daemon to court then? Why not put his heir into a position where there would be a smooth transition. Even if Otto were to remain Hand - Rhaenyra should at least be back in the castle to sit on the council.

Now we have to buy Rhaenyra-Daemon love Viserys without doing anything of note to help him ... or themselves.

It is hilarious how Rhaenyra talks about asking Gerardys' opinion about that ruin of a man who is literally knocking at death's door. Lady, you should have thought about that five years ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay having read this article I'm really not impressed with the answers from Sarah Hess.

Quote

HESS I think she just can’t do it. It’s not her war. The fight is between these two sides and she’s kind of not in it. She doesn’t feel like she’s the one to come in and do that. But you’re right. If she had just incinerated everybody, it’s game over, Rhaenyra wins and we’re done here. But the cost is huge. I also feel like that moment, she looks Alicent in the eye and Alicent walks in front of her kid to shield him. It’s one mother to another. Rhaenys is angry, but in her previous scene with Alicent, she respected her, even if she doesn’t agree with her. So she’s not going to kill another woman like that.

After she just killed a large amount of women and children without remorse?
 

Quote

 

So from the beginning, we have been waiting for Rhaenys to do something badass and you gave us this incredible moment. It’s very cool, but does it did make me wonder: Does it make sense that she doesn’t kill them? She murders a bunch of civilians by busting out anyway …

HESS It’s Game of Thrones — civilians don’t count!

 

Okay, these comments are D+D levels of dumb. GRRM would be tearing his hair out at an answer like that.

Like I said, the writing on the show has been impeccable throughout the season, but now alarm bells are starting to ring.

I hope Ryan Condal reins these crazy people in before they ruin his show.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, IFR said:

Otto: Ser Cole, it occurs to me that we take measures so that our prisoners do not escape. What is one method Targaryens are notorious about using against others?

Cole: Dragons?

Otto: Precisely. See that the dragons are guarded.

This is a conversation those who aren't extremely incompetent would have.

Would the dragon keepers allow this?  Would “guards” on the dragons who aren’t “dragon keepers” be seen as “crunchy and good with ketchup” to the large dragons on the Dragonpit?  IOW… was it possible to place a “guard” on large fire breathing lizards who aren’t terribly discriminating in what they choose to charbroil and then eat?

@Ran

What do we know, if anything, about the “Dragon Keepers”?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/17/2022 at 9:13 AM, MisbornHeir said:

How does everyone think Rhaeny's treatment and subsequent escape would of proceeded if she supported Vaemond in the Driftmark succesion? 

I’m not sure it’s something that would have changed the outcome of her escape.

1. First of I don’t believe Rhaenys would have ever done it.  She proposed Baela to Corlys as heir to Driftmark. She also had the girl close to her in the throne room if I’m not misremembering, when the claims were discussed. I’d think that indicates she wasn’t there to advocate for herself like Rhaenyra supposed and accused Rhaenys of doing. She wanted the Driftmark for her granddaughter.

2. IF she supported Vaemond, nothing would have changed:

Viserys’ would have been in a pickle as he gave Rhaenys the last word on this. Basically  he’d need to a knowledge that Luke is a bastard, since that’s why Vaemond was claiming the House seat over Luke to begin with, because he was the “last true blooded Velaryon”.

Daemon’s sword would still  have cut Vaemond for suggesting Rhaenyra’s kids are bastards but I doubt it would have sliced Rhaenys.

And the Velaryons would still have been pledged to Rhaenyra with Luke as heir, if Corlys buys the dust.

In the end the deciding factor here is Corlys being alive and refusing to die.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

@Ran

What do we know, if anything, about the “Dragon Keepers”?

In the books, they're a company of guards who wear armor and have weapons who guard the dragons night and day wherever they may be found. That's about it. None is ever given a name or dialog. On the show, they appear to have turned them more into a mystic, ascetic cult of dragon-worshippers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, EggBlue said:

it's become a routine by this point: a very good episode ending in idiocy. 

Even some of the people who liked the ending are pointing out that Rhaenys actually killed a lot of people during her escape. I really hope that the showrunners address this properly at some point, at least Condal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

So apparently people hate the screenwriter, Sara Hess, now? Some of it looks to be because she said Daemon is a a monster, which—you go, girl, I’m right there with you. But they’re also comparing her to D&D lol.

Some of her coments were really out of touch… like this one

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The episode certainly wasn't bad but it did kinda feel like filler. Where's Waldo but in Kingslanding.

Whether that's a bad thing depends on what they can get out of next episode. If they don't manage to get Storms End and....''cheese'' in the next episode then the Where's Waldo subplot might have been time better spend elsewhere.

From Harwin and Rhaenyra's relationship, more scene with the younger versions of the princes, to the White Worm or Laena there's a lot of story aspects that weren't given the time they might have deserved. So with that in mind I do think this more filler orientated episode might end up being among the more controversial ones.
Edited by Daemon of the Blacks
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said:

Some of her coments were really out of touch… like this one

 

It seems in touch to me. You can have two individuals who have radically different views of the nature of an interaction that took place. This is very common in sexual situations, unfortunately.

I think this is a social epidemic that has proved very hard to address.

Edited by IFR
Grammar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 And he is also not really particularly passionate with Rhaenyra. She throws herself at him and he takes her, but if he hadn't done it he wouldn't have instigated an affair nor suggested a marriage.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Rhaenyra was the one who proposed, yes, but he didn’t act like he didn’t care about her as you say. In fact, if you watch the funeral scene again, you see he basically was watching her every move during the entire event and when they kissed he seemed pretty moved to me. In the behind the scenes video from episode 8 the director says that they wanted to show the audience that they were really in love and we actually see them holding hands, him caressing her baby bump, etc.

We know he’s going to cheat/leave her soon enough, but right know, they’re showing he cares about her.

Same about Viserys, to me it was obvious Daemon always loved Viserys but only got resentful because he never felt that his brother truly trusted him.

I’ve always seen him care about his family (Viserys&Rhaenyra, not so much about his kids but this was entirely the writers choice as we know).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, IFR said:

It seems in touch to me. You can have two individuals who have radically different views of the nature of an interaction that took place. This is very common in sexual situations, unfortunately.

I think this is a social epidemic that has proved very hard to address.

Huh? Now we’re excusing r*pists “because they never understood the concept of consent” :worried:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said:

Read it again, she literally said this. This quote is the one making more noise than the one about Daemon.

That's not what she literally said. She said what I paraphrased.

It doesn't excuse the action, but provides an insight into a problematic social structure. This is what is called a nuanced view. Someone can engage in a terrible action without direct malice. It doesn't obviate the action or its impact, but it does provide insight behind the action.

Edited by IFR
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, IFR said:

That's not what she literally said. She said what I paraphrased.

It doesn't excuse the action, but provide an insight into a problematic social structure. This is what is called a nuanced view. Someone can engage in a terrible action without direct malice. It doesn't obviate the action or its impact, but it does provide insight behind the action.

Yeah, this sounds like a excuse, sorry. No one wants to have a nuanced view of a r*pist, at least I know I don’t.

I know this story is filled with terrible people, but they made Aegon a complete trash can, so if decided to follow this way, just go for it until the end.

Edited by Leticia Stark
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said:

Yeah, this sounds like a excuse, sorry. No one wants to have a nuanced view of a r*pist, at least I know I don’t.

To be fair, we do have a nuanced view of a guy who killed his wife and, uhm, seduced his underage niece. I definitely didn't ask for any of that.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said:

Yeah, this sounds like a excuse, sorry. No one wants to have a nuanced view of a r*pist, at least I know I don’t.

I know this story is filled with terrible people, but they made Aegon a complete trash can, so if decided to follow this way, just go for it until the end.

You're free to have your own views, and that's fine.

I personally find that life is not black and white and prefer writers who strive to write characters as humans are: with complexity. And so I appreciate when these kind of observations are made.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said:

Some of her coments were really out of touch… like this one

 

They actually could have accomplished what she’s talking about here better if Alicent had walked in on Aegon with Dyanna, who immediately looks ashamed. This would have been a better way to establish the “she likes him but she also can’t say no” dynamic than what we got, which clearly indicates that Dyanna was physically forced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...