[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion

[Adaneth]

47 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Oh, I agree it was not their intention. 

But I don't see how a competent villain would be that much better. Why not make her a morally grey character who thinks she is doing the right thing instead of a power hungry usurper?  

The idea that she could be just pure evil unravels all the relationship build it up between her and Rhaenyra and the conflicted nature Alicent (should) be facing. As of now Rhaenyra is completely passive/diplomatic in reaction to this betrayal so there does not seem to be any emotions/passions at her end regarding Alicent. 

Granted, what they did was the worst option possible. 

I don't think they have made her look "pure evil". They are trying to make their relationship more complex than it was in the books, or that it need to be for that matter. I think I understand where they are coming from (I might be wrong), but I think they are a bit confused about how exactly do they want to portray these two women and their relationship.

They are also very much aware of the culture "fashion" right now, and that is a problem everywhere in the industry right now. I think that negatively affect the creative process, ideas and writing. 

There is nothing wrong with a woman wanting power, or wanting her family to benefit from it. Not wanting to lead or govern doesn't automatically make you a "good person", and viceversa, and it certainly doesn't make you a more interesting character either. Furthermore, a woman can be manipulative, power hungry, a liar, a killer, ruthless, psycho etc., too. It doesn't matter what kind of people you decide to tell the story about. What matters is how you tell that story and write those characters.

I like Theon in the books a lot. Not because I like Theon as a person and what he does. But I like his POV and how he is portrayed. That's what a show creator and writer should strive to do, IMO.

[Adaneth]

15 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't know if it's true or not but someone said that a scene like Rhaenys' escape on her dragon had to be agreed upon by everyone in the writers room and the showrunners, since it's an expensive scene to film. So Sara Hess is the one who get all the hate, when in fact a lot of people signed off on it.

Because she is putting her face and talking about it. Easy target. 

Of course the show runners had to agree. As for all the writers in the room. Well, not all of them have the same weight and decision power. If I'm not mistaken she's also a Producer (?).

[butterweedstrover]

6 minutes ago, Adaneth said:

I don't think they have made her look "pure evil". They are trying to make their relationship more complex than it was in the books, or that it need to be for that matter. I think I understand where they are coming from (I might be wrong), but I think they are a bit confused about how exactly do they want to portray these two women and their relationship.

They are also very much aware of the culture "fashion" right now, and that is a problem everywhere in the industry right now. I think that negatively affect the creative process, ideas and writing. 

There is nothing wrong with a woman wanting power, or wanting her family to benefit from it. Not wanting to lead or govern doesn't automatically make you a "good person", and viceversa, and it certainly doesn't make you a more interesting character either. Furthermore, a woman can be manipulative, power hungry, a liar, a killer, ruthless, psycho etc., too. It doesn't matter what kind of people you decide to tell the story about. What matters is how you tell that story and write those characters.

I like Theon in the books a lot. Not because I like Theon as a person and what he does. But I like his POV and how he is portrayed. That's what a show creator and writer should strive to do, IMO.

Women can be generic villains whose sole motivation is power, but that doesn't play well in a duel narrative where both sides are framed as having nuanced motivations that form a morally grey conflict. 

Martin quotes Faulkner about the heart at conflict with itself and that is the basis for character's worthy of an actual perspective, not just a one-dimensional power grab. It isn't a question of realism but making their psychological battles interesting and engaging. 

Alicent had her friendship with Rhaenyra developed to add conflict to her decision. The implicit emotional reluctance would require a strong motivating factor. But they weren't able to give her one so instead she appears to be conflicted but is really just schizophrenic. And that keep in mind ruins the Blacks as well since they come off as bland heroes fighting against a pointless evil.  

[Adaneth]

51 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I mean she is now unambiguously the good guy so I suppose the showrunners got what they wanted. 

There is plenty of time for Rhaenyra to be the "bad guy". Personally, I don't see her as that "good" now either, but that's a different matter.

If they don't change her story much, I don't see how anyone would side with her, or Alicent for that matter. I'm saying this as someone who sides with the Blacks in the books, but not because of Rhaenyra. 

 

[Adaneth]

14 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Women can be generic villains whose sole motivation is power, but that doesn't play well in a duel narrative where both sides are framed as having nuanced motivations that form a morally grey conflict. 

Indeed. I didn't said they are, or should be black&white. Most people are fare more complex than even we give them credit for. I meant that just because you want a position of power, in this case the Throne, shouldn't automatically make a character either good or bad. And you can also be a "villain" and not be generic but an interesting one. 

Quote

Alicent had her friendship with Rhaenyra developed to add conflict to her decision. The implicit emotional reluctance would require a strong motivating factor. But they weren't able to give her one so instead she appears to be conflicted but is really just schizophrenic. And that keep in mind ruins the Blacks as well since they come off as bland heroes fighting against a pointless evil.  

Agreed.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Adaneth

[$erPounce]

42 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't know if it's true or not but someone said that a scene like Rhaenys' escape on her dragon had to be agreed upon by everyone in the writers room and the showrunners, since it's an expensive scene to film. So Sara Hess is the one who get all the hate, when in fact a lot of people signed off on it.

That's right. Such decisions are done together.

Also remember that Ti Mikkel (George's assistant at ASOIAF) is also part of the writer's room and participates in the discussions and has some input.

I also wouldn't be surprised if George had some say as well. After GOT season 8, the cancelled Bloodmoon prequel and House of the Dragon being rebooted twice under different showrunners, his influence within HBO has grown.

After all, we know it was because of George that the HOTD show didn't start with Viserys' death and the Green Council. Former showrunner Carly Wray did not want timeskips and Bryan Cogman's version was insufficient.

George understands well that the target audience that needs to be catered to with the show is very different from that of the novels.

I think everyone involved in the decision making agreed that there had to be a twist the penultimate episode because, after all, casual fans expect that after being used to that from GOT.

Edited October 19, 2022 by $erPounce

[Ran]

I don't think it's profitable to assume that Ti or George have an outsized position on the show. We know that George has said that sometimes he had to be convinced about things, and sometimes he had to simply agree to disagree on something but allow them to go the route the writers think best because ultmately they are doing the heavy lifting of creating it. He has input, not veto power.

George's and, by extension, Ti's contributions are valued, but Ryan Condal is the final word on the show.

Basically, just because something happens on the show does not mean it was done with George's direct approval or even blessing. That said, he's clearly very happy with the show. So far, so am I, even though I've a host of quibbles and issues with this and that. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Ran

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

30 minutes ago, $erPounce said:

I also wouldn't be surprised if George had some say as well. After GOT season 8, the cancelled Bloodmoon prequel and House of the Dragon being rebooted twice under different showrunners, his influence within HBO has grown.

I think people overestimate how much influence GRRM has. He couldn't stop D&D from turning Jeyne Westerling into Talisa, even though he really tried. And that was during season 2 of GoT, when his word arguably had the most weight. Sure, the people involved might listen to his advice from time to time, but they reject it just as often.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yep, that was the part that caught my eye too. I didn’t feel enough of a connection to Rhaenyra and Alicent’s friendship for their falling out to feel like the great tragedy the show was aiming for—Alicent was always clearly subservient to Rhaenyra, who never seemed to care much how her supposed best friend was handling things—and by making them both pawns and victims, they’ve been sapped of a lot of their vitality. There’s a reason people found characters like Cersei so engaging.

I think we now will see the fallout of the problem I've been talking about since the show was first announced. If they don't properly depict the motivations and issues of the main characters, then the war will be uninteresting because we don't care about either party.

They tried with Alicent-Rhaenyra, but them rushing through things and not really starting to get them no longer being friends until the end of episode 5, skipping the time when their relationship deteriorated further, doesn't make it all that successful.

Much worse, I think, is the fact that Rhaenyra and Aegon didn't interact at all so far. Aegon presumably will kill Rhaenyra, and unless they make great changes the only time these characters will speak to each other will be when Aegon feeds Rhaenyra to Sunfyre.

Thus there would be no buildup for this at all.

I'm not saying there should have been many scenes with Aegon and Rhaenyra, but at least one to establish how they felt about each other. Do they like each other? Are they neutral about each other? Do they hate each other for reasons?

They botched this completely. This is significant once things go down to Rhaenyra and Aegon dealing with each other as pretenders - which will eventually happen. Otto and Alicent are but kingmakers, now it is up to Rhaenyra and Aegon to make peace or war.

The book clearly establishes that Aegon and Rhaenyra didn't like each other, meaning this would have also played into there being a war to a point. The show has Rhaenyra never talk about Aegon or any of her half-siblings at all, meaning we have literally no idea how she feels about them, while all references Aegon made about Rhaenyra imply he doesn't hate her and is actually pretty fine with her being the heir. Like Daemon, Aegon craved the love/recognition of Viserys, having more issues with the man not giving him much attention than with the fact that he didn't name him heir.

I said it already - they really missed the chance to include a scene with young Aegon and Viserys where the boy told his father that his mother told him he would be king one day, etc., wanting to know from the king whether this was true. And then Viserys making it crystal clear to Aegon that this would never happen.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Lord Varys

[Adaneth]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think we now will see the fallout of the problem I've been talking about since the show was first announced. If they don't properly depict the motivations and issues of the main characters, then the war will be uninteresting because we don't care about either party.

They tried with Alicent-Rhaenyra, but them rushing through things and not really starting to get them no longer being friends until the end of episode 5, skipping the time when their relationship deteriorated further, doesn't make it all that successful.

Much worse, I think, is the fact that Rhaenyra and Aegon didn't interact at all so far. Aegon presumably will kill each other, and unless they make great changes the only time these characters will speak to each other will be when Aegon feeds Rhaenyra to Sunfyre.

Thus there would be no buildup for this at all.

I'm not saying there should have been many scenes with Aegon and Rhaenyra, but at least one to establish how they felt about each other. Do they like each other? Are they neutral about each other? Do they hate each other for reasons?

They botched this completely. This is significant once things go down to Rhaenyra and Aegon dealing with each other as pretenders - which will eventually happen. Otto and Alicent are but kingmakers, now it is up to Rhaenyra and Aegon to make peace or war.

The book clearly establishes that Aegon and Rhaenyra didn't like each other, meaning this would have also played into there being a war to a point. The show has Rhaenyra never talk about Aegon or any of her half-siblings at all, meaning we have literally no idea how she feels about them, while all references Aegon made about Rhaenyra implies he doesn't hate her and is actually pretty fine with her being the heir. Like Daemon, Aegon craved the love/recognition of Viserys, having more issues with the man not giving him much attention than with the fact that he didn't name him heir.

I said it already - they really missed the chance to include a scene with young Aegon and Viserys where the boy told his father that his mother told him he would be king one day, etc., wanting to know from the king whether this was true. And then Viserys making it crystal clear to Aegon that this would never happen.

100% agree with this. 

I was thinking about Aegon and Rhaenyra because I was reading something about it from the books this morning. I didn't pay attention in the show about their lack of interaction, or us not knowing anything about her feelings and opinion of him. I think there was too much focus on the two women. But you're absolutely right. This could backfire. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Adaneth

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, RumHam said:

Right but it still seems like she knows pretty clearly whats going to happen when Aemond gets his dragon. I guess maybe not though, maybe she just had a dream about a one eyed dragon or something.

I'm expecting/hoping that Helaena's prophetic gifts will eventually be discovered by a perceptive person - Aemond for the Greens, say, and Daemon or Rhaenyra for the Blacks - with later prophetic remarks of hers actually influencing policy and/or military strategy.

Having her talk to herself all the time is getting stale already.

The writers gave themselves a good plot device there set up the parts of the Dance story that make little to no sense. Perhaps the people in charge listening to and misinterpreting cryptic prophecy will explain some of those.

I'm also starting to think show Helaena might actually be murdered ... by somebody who realizes that her most recent cryptic prophecy gives away their secret plans. Let's say Larys Strong is setting up the riots against Rhaenyra and Helaena both foresees it and correctly interprets what's going to happen and is murdered before she can warn Rhaenyra. Or she could have figured out where Aegon II is and what he is going to do in the future.

That nobody figured out what Helaena is is also quite ridiculous. Viserys was obsessed with dreamers, and Alicent knows about this. If she has been throwing out cryptic prophecies her entire life - which is implied - then somebody should have figured out things by now.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Lord Varys

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Adaneth said:

Of course the showrunners had to agree.

But even if they wanted to make a scene "for the Twitter reactions", they have already shown that they are capable of doing that the right way just an episode ago, with Viserys entering the throne room. And now they're doing this? Why?

Given that nothing gets through without being approved by the showrunners, it's not even a case of too many cooks in the kitchen with all the different writers. 

[butterweedstrover]

https://i.redd.it/1pxqyabr1mu91.jpg 

Eve Best’s reaction. It was an act of grace and mercy.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Much worse, I think, is the fact that Rhaenyra and Aegon didn't interact at all so far. Aegon presumably will kill Rhaenyra, and unless they make great changes the only time these characters will speak to each other will be when Aegon feeds Rhaenyra to Sunfyre.

Yeah the fact Rhaenyra hasn't interacted with any of her half-siblings is quite unfortunate, with Aegon being the most glaring.  I definitely would have been interested in seeing how they all really felt about each other beforehand.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That nobody figured out what Helaena is is also quite ridiculous. Viserys was obsessed with dreamers, and Alicent knows about this. If she has been throwing out cryptic prophecies her entire life - which is implied - then somebody should have figured out things by now.

I dunno, it's quite clear Alicent dismisses it as rambling, which makes sense.  They're all decidedly vague.  Even Viserys would have a hard time identifying her statements as coming from prophetic dreams.  Even the "closing one eye" one, which is the most explicit, she's not referring to Aemond but the millipede.  Plus, only Alicent and Aemond are there and they aren't even paying attention to her.  Same goes for the dragons of flesh and thread one in episode 7 (with Aegon replacing Alicent).  Helaena would probably have to express these are coming from her dreams, and it doesn't appear she has.

[The Bard of Banefort]

It’s weird that, aside from name-dropping the Baratheons, EP9 did nothing to set up the other houses. Cregan Stark and Dalton Greyjoy are both hugely important characters in the war, and no one mentioned trying to win either of them over.

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s weird that, aside from name-dropping the Baratheons, EP9 did nothing to set up the other houses. Cregan Stark and Dalton Greyjoy are both hugely important characters in the war, and no one mentioned trying to win either of them over.

Yeah I don't mind most of the omissions from the Green Council scene in the books, but they could have spent a minute or so discussing their potential allies (or not) among the great houses.

[El Guapo]

Well they did mention Riverrun and Highgarden last episode and I am pretty sure we will hear mentions of Winterfell and possible the Vale next episode, along with Storms End of course.

Edited October 19, 2022 by El Guapo

[Ran]

I hope they'll have Jace go to White Harbor as well. Even if it's just a quick glimpse, the Manderlys do end up playing a role, and they were cut from GoT entirely I think.

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

and they were cut from GoT entirely I think.

Wyman shows up in the Season 6 finale after the Battle of the Bastards.  Little Lyanna Mormont shames him and others for "refusing the call," and Wyman is the first to declare Jon King (after Lyanna) and dubs him "the White Wolf."

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

Wyman shows up in the Season 6 finale after the Battle of the Bastards.  Little Lyanna Mormont shames him and others for "refusing the call," and Wyman is the first to declare Jon King (after Lyanna) and dubs him "the White Wolf."

Ah, well. Did not watch that season, so that would explain it! But was he a walrus-looking dude? Because if not, they can rectify that on this show!