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[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion


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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s weird that, aside from name-dropping the Baratheons, EP9 did nothing to set up the other houses. Cregan Stark and Dalton Greyjoy are both hugely important characters in the war, and no one mentioned trying to win either of them over.

Pretty sure Cregan and Jeyne will be mentioned next episode, with the Manderlys or White Harbor being mentioned as well. While they might (and perhaps should) skip Jace's visit to White Harbor (there will be enough negotiation scenes with Jeyne at the Eyrie and Cregan at Winterfell), we definitely should see Medrick and Torrhen Manderly pop up at Rhaenyra's court eventually, perhaps even before she is in KL.

In the book the Greens also didn't really consider approaching the Northmen nor the Vale.

Having Riverrun and Highgarden mentioned as crucial Green allies is actually more than the books did at that point. There the writing is actually quite interesting, since the Greens believing the Tullys to be in the camp could indicate that Alicent arguing for Lord Grover dealing with the Bracken-Blackwood feud may have been her attempt to show Riverrun that the Crown thought he could keep his house in order all by himself.

Dalton Greyjoy is an afterthought in the book. If they include the Ironborn plot - which, in my opinion, they could cut easily enough - it is enough to start with that early in season 2. The whole thing would need considerable screentime if the audience is to care about the suffering of the Westermen, so if they have it it might be more a background plot we are told about rather than something that's crucial element in the story.

3 hours ago, DMC said:

I dunno, it's quite clear Alicent dismisses it as rambling, which makes sense.  They're all decidedly vague.  Even Viserys would have a hard time identifying her statements as coming from prophetic dreams.  Even the "closing one eye" one, which is the most explicit, she's not referring to Aemond but the millipede.  Plus, only Alicent and Aemond are there and they aren't even paying attention to her.  Same goes for the dragons of flesh and thread one in episode 7 (with Aegon replacing Alicent).  Helaena would probably have to express these are coming from her dreams, and it doesn't appear she has.

I'm going with the assumption that Helaena talks this way all the time. It just makes no sense that people overhearing her - and there would be people overhearing her all the time since she is a pampered princess, surrounded day and night by servants and companions - would never connect any dots.

We cannot presume that all her prophecies would be as cryptic as the ones she made so far - although people did hear about 'the beast beneath the boards' twice and might actually make the connection now.

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11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm going with the assumption that Helaena talks this way all the time.

Oh, nah I don't get that impression.  That would be a ton of prophecies.  And/or repeating the same prophecy - which maybe then some people would wonder about but also quite possible they just think she's weird (or, as Aegon says, an idiot).  Even if we go with her talking like this a handful of times a day, that's likely to be dismissed I think.

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We cannot presume that all her prophecies would be as cryptic as the ones she made so far - although people did hear about 'the beast beneath the boards' twice and might actually make the connection now.

Well, we can't assume (m)any of her prophecies are straightforward either.  Even on the beast beneath the boards - which I do agree is different because it's repeated and she seems to be yelling it at Alicent the second time - even the internet can't agree on what it means.  Is it Blood and Cheese, Rhaenys and Meleys, Aegon hiding, or some combination of the three?  As sticklers have mentioned, Meleys emerging through the floor isn't really "boards."   

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7 hours ago, $erPounce said:

I think everyone involved in the decision making agreed that there had to be a twist the penultimate episode because, after all, casual fans expect that after being used to that from GOT.

Sure, and I don't mind that per se. I'm just baffled that not one of the people involved thought that this particular twist was questionable.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think we now will see the fallout of the problem I've been talking about since the show was first announced. If they don't properly depict the motivations and issues of the main characters, then the war will be uninteresting because we don't care about either party.

They tried with Alicent-Rhaenyra, but them rushing through things and not really starting to get them no longer being friends until the end of episode 5, skipping the time when their relationship deteriorated further, doesn't make it all that successful.

Much worse, I think, is the fact that Rhaenyra and Aegon didn't interact at all so far. Aegon presumably will kill Rhaenyra, and unless they make great changes the only time these characters will speak to each other will be when Aegon feeds Rhaenyra to Sunfyre.

Thus there would be no buildup for this at all.

I'm not saying there should have been many scenes with Aegon and Rhaenyra, but at least one to establish how they felt about each other. Do they like each other? Are they neutral about each other? Do they hate each other for reasons?

They botched this completely. This is significant once things go down to Rhaenyra and Aegon dealing with each other as pretenders - which will eventually happen. Otto and Alicent are but kingmakers, now it is up to Rhaenyra and Aegon to make peace or war.

The book clearly establishes that Aegon and Rhaenyra didn't like each other, meaning this would have also played into there being a war to a point. The show has Rhaenyra never talk about Aegon or any of her half-siblings at all, meaning we have literally no idea how she feels about them, while all references Aegon made about Rhaenyra imply he doesn't hate her and is actually pretty fine with her being the heir. Like Daemon, Aegon craved the love/recognition of Viserys, having more issues with the man not giving him much attention than with the fact that he didn't name him heir.

I said it already - they really missed the chance to include a scene with young Aegon and Viserys where the boy told his father that his mother told him he would be king one day, etc., wanting to know from the king whether this was true. And then Viserys making it crystal clear to Aegon that this would never happen.

I fully agree with this .

despite the fact that I found ep8 one of the best episodes of the season , I found myself quite uninterested in the show afterwards and one of the main reasons for that was the lack of any Aegon/Rhaenyra interactions in any shape or form . for all the clash of two women advertisements , the dance story is a war between two siblings . one that goes so far that Aegon becomes obsessed with ending his sister's line. 

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s weird that, aside from name-dropping the Baratheons, EP9 did nothing to set up the other houses. Cregan Stark and Dalton Greyjoy are both hugely important characters in the war, and no one mentioned trying to win either of them over.

well , it's the show that there's no name dropping of Daeron the Daring although he's apparently gonna be in the show. so , I wouldn't say it's weird ! but disappointing !

I think Jace's education scene could've been way better with showing him interested in Westeros , say Starks and their strange gods , rather than dead old Valyrian language . book-Jace is a savvy politician who can befriend a Stark and convince an Arryn and a Manderly to join his mother's cause . he should also know enough of Westerosi history to be fully aware of weird first night rule ,unlike queen Alyssane, in order to use it in sowing of dragon seeds plot (probably without Mushroom's help!) . clinging to heritage and your slaver ancestors' dead language is all good and well for kings but not all that much when you have a foreign heritage in the kingdom you rule . i mean that I expect someone like Daemon to be interested in learning Valyrian history and someone like Jace to be interested in Westerosi one! 

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Having her talk to herself all the time is getting stale already.

And that's Helenae having had less than 2 minutes on screen in aggregate, and not even appearing in at least half of it?  Harsh, old chap, harsh. 

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5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

https://i.redd.it/1pxqyabr1mu91.jpg 

Eve Best’s reaction. It was an act of grace and mercy.

Delusional. lol

In her defense though, the journalists seems to completely disregard the smallfolks and is frustrated only by the fact that she didn't incinerated the Greens. He should've pushed back on that one, but maybe it's for the best he didn't. Otherwise, we would have received a similar answer that Hess gave: What smallfolks? lol

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12 minutes ago, Zorral said:

And that's Helenae having had less than 2 minutes on screen in aggregate, and not even appearing in at least half of it?  Harsh, old chap, harsh. 

Yeah, for someone who was loved by the people and given what happens later, she didn't have much screen time.

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On 10/19/2022 at 1:20 AM, Leticia Stark said:

She maybe expected that he would be one of the stars, but not THE one lol

But I don’t know what they expected when they casted Matt Smith, he shines in every single one of his parts (except in Morbius but no one could save that lmao)

I don't know why she is surprised. Daemon has charisma. He's the classic "bad boy", if you will. He has bad things and good things going for him, which makes it interesting. And as you said, Matt Smith shines.

I think they have done a good job with the casting of Aemond too. Although the age difference between him and Aegon is very weird.

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26 minutes ago, Adaneth said:

Delusional. lol

In her defense though, the journalists seems to completely disregard the smallfolks and is frustrated only by the fact that she didn't incinerated the Greens. He should've pushed back on that one, but maybe it's for the best he didn't. Otherwise, we would have received a similar answer that Hess gave: What smallfolks? lol

The best part was: "in a weird way." 

Weird is doing a lot of work there. 

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12 minutes ago, Adaneth said:

Although the age difference between him and Aegon is very weird.

Ewan Mitchell (Aemond) actually is two years younger than Tom Glynn-Carney (Aegon).  So, it's just that the latter looks more boyish which..really I'm fine with.  The thing with Aemond/Mitchell is he definitely looks at least 25, his actual age, which makes Aemond freakishly (physically) mature for what his age should be.

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2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The best part was: "in a weird way." 

Weird is doing a lot of work there. 

I noticed that too. lol

1 minute ago, DMC said:

Ewan Mitchell (Aemond) actually is two years younger than Tom Glynn-Carney (Aegon).  So, it's just that the latter looks more boyish which..really I'm fine with.  The thing with Aemond/Mitchell is he definitely looks at least 25, his actual age, which makes Aemond freakishly (physically) mature for what his age should be.

I had no idea about their real age. I was just ref. to the looks. I wouldn't have guessed that Mitchell is actually younger. WOW! LOL

I like him though. He's perfect as Aemond.

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On 10/18/2022 at 9:49 PM, Tha_Prince_Ali said:

One thing this episode has emphasized for me is how dumb the storming of the Dragonpit is...

Like I really, really hate to use such negative language but it honestly was just one of the dumber scenes in the book. You could really see that George was straining to write around the existing lore that he has created ("how the hell do I get rid of all these dragons before I get to Aegon III??"). And it's one of those things I've believed would look 100x more implausible when you're watching it happen on screen instead of imagining it through text. Watching Meleys wade through a crowd of terrified peasants like they're ants confirmed that to me.

I think storming of the dragonpit is going to be ripe territory for some story expansion and rewrites in this show.

Yep. I've never been convinced with that story either.

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Ewan Mitchell is not 20. Some websites mention he is, some others state he is 25 actually.

He was already acting in 2016 in The Last Kingdom and he wasn't 14 years old there, no chance of that.

He must be in his lates 20s, like Olivia Cooke and Tom

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4 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Ewan Mitchell is not 20. Some websites mention he is, some others state he is 25 actually.

He was already acting in 2016 in The Last Kingdom and he wasn't 14 years old there, no chance of that.

He must be in his lates 20s, like Olivia Cooke and Tom

Google says he's 25, born March 8, 1997.  As does this.

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It’s weird how they cast someone so young to play Jace (17) but not Aemond (around 25) despite them only being about a year apart on the show. Depending on where the seasons end, Aemond may only live a few episodes longer than Jace, so I don’t think it’s an issue of the passage of time. Jace’s age also makes it less likely that we’ll see an intimate relationship between him and Sara Snow (although they had 17-year-old Emily Carey lay under Paddy Considine, so maybe that doesn’t matter). The only explanation I can think of is that the actor must have blown them out of the water during his audition (and he has been very charismatic based on what we’ve seen so far).

The huge age gap between Aemond and Luke is probably intentional though, and will be used to emphasize Aemond as a villain even more when he kills Luke. I can already see all the defenses people will makes for him though—Aemond lost an eye in a childhood brawl, so of course he has every right to kill Luke unprovoked!

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2 hours ago, Adaneth said:

I don't know why she is surprised. Daemon has charisma. He's the classic "bad boy", if you will. He has bad things and good things going for him, which makes it interesting. And as you said, Matt Smith shines.

he's got mostly bad things going about him and unfortunately lacks the depth they are clearly giving Aemond with so little screen time (I thought it would be the other way around!) . I think Daemon shines because of Matt Smith ... and that's about it . 

2 hours ago, Adaneth said:

I think they have done a good job with the casting of Aemond too. Although the age difference between him and Aegon is very weird.

absolutely . this actor is great . re age differences , as others mentioned , Ewan Mitchel is younger than Tom Glynn-carney . considering Aegon is a pampered soft prince and Aemond is the warrior prince , I'm fine with their depictions . where it doesn't make sense is with Jace and Aemond's age difference . as far as we know , Jace and Aemond are pretty close in age , unless Alicent somehow managed to have Aemond when Rhaenyra was on her tour and they kinda forgot to tell/show the audience! 

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It's certainly a weird choice how young and even meager Jace and Luke look in comparison to Aemond and even Aegon, particularly considering their actual father is described as massive and them themselves are described as quite formidable in the books.  This is one area where I agree the showrunners/producers might be trying to give the blacks the edge - by making Jace and Luke look like such underdogs, they're more sympathetic.

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As cringey as her interviews were, I do feel bad for Sara Hess, seeing how badly she’s getting dogpiled online. Nothing seems to rile up GOT fans like being angry at someone who works on the show.

UPDATE:

Jesus Christ, this is the worst fandom ever lol: https://www.change.org/p/hbo-should-replace-sara-hess-with-another-writer-for-her-parts-in-season-2-of-hotd?utm_content=cl_sharecopy_34739873_en-US%3A3&recruiter=1281091603&recruited_by_id=9a26ad50-4f99-11ed-87e9-693739a00682&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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