[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion

[Khloey]

11 minutes ago, Mithras said:

And so is GoT but the double standard in the fandom is hilarious.

We can't compare adaptations yet.. There are 8 seasons of GOT only one of HOTD.

The only big changes from the book is Laenor's fate and Rhaenys' escape. GOT completely changed entire character's storyline from season 5.

It's not double standard. Not yet anyway.

[DMC]

27 minutes ago, Mithras said:

And so is GoT but the double standard in the fandom is hilarious.

If we're just comparing first seasons, yes, GoT was considerably more faithful.

[Ran]

I would definitely say the first season of GoT is on the whole more faithful than the first season of F&B, even allowing for F&B's duelling chroniclers with imperfect information. The most significant difference is Cersei and her characterization, with her having had a child by Robert and so on, Catelyn from the get-go being flipped from urging Ned to accept the Handship to her urging him to reject it, and the depiction of Renly and his relationship to the Tyrells (where he is essentially a weak, soft-hearted soul who is their puppet) Dany's, Jon's, Arya's, Sansa's, Tyrion's, and Ned's stories are otherwise pretty much spot on for the book. 

Against this we have a very substantial change to Alicent that makes her basically a different character, pretty substantial changes to Rhaenyra, very substantial changes to Viserys that make him essentially a new character, Mysaria's basically a different character... 

OTOH, visually F&B comes closer to capturing George's world. D&D deliberately wanted to push things into the more fantastical, in terms of architecture, set design, costume design, and away from the more grounded look that seems to permeate HotD.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Ran

[The Bard of Banefort]

50 minutes ago, Ran said:

I would definitely say the first season of GoT is on the whole more faithful than the first season of F&B, even allowing for F&B's duelling chroniclers with imperfect information. The most significant difference is Cersei and her characterization, with her having had a child by Robert and so on, Catelyn from the get-go being flipped from urging Ned to accept the Handship to her urging him to reject it, and the depiction of Renly and his relationship to the Tyrells (where he is essentially a weak, soft-hearted soul who is their puppet) Dany's, Jon's, Arya's, Sansa's, Tyrion's, and Ned's stories are otherwise pretty much spot on for the book. 

Against this we have a very substantial change to Alicent that makes her basically a different character, pretty substantial changes to Rhaenyra, very substantial changes to Viserys that make him essentially a new character, Mysaria's basically a different character... 

OTOH, visually F&B comes closer to capturing George's world. D&D deliberately wanted to push things into the more fantastical, in terms of architecture, set design, costume design, and away from the more grounded look that seems to permeate HotD.

You think GOT had a more fantastical look than HOTD does?

[EggBlue]

54 minutes ago, Ran said:

 OTOH, visually F&B comes closer to capturing George's world. D&D deliberately wanted to push things into the more fantastical, in terms of architecture, set design, costume design, and away from the more grounded look that seems to permeate HotD.

umm... I agree with the rest of your post , but what is more fantastical about GoT's season1 ? I honestly don't recall...

[The Bard of Banefort]

10 hours ago, DMC said:

Blaming Sara Hess for the Rhaenys scene is just reason 4 trillion something for why the internet is so stupid.  The responsibility for such a decision - and really any major beat in any episode - ultimately resides with the showrunners.  That's why they are called showrunners.  Fucking morons.

It’s especially weird that there’s now a panic that they’re going to “ruin” Daemon and Rhaenyra’s relationship. Many shippers have read FnB by now. Daemon isn’t some loving partner. He starts up his relationship with Mysaria again as soon as Rhaenyra takes the throne, then ditches her for a teenage girl. I can only imagine the amount of absurd hate Nettles’ actress will get when that happens.

[Ran]

12 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

umm... I agree with the rest of your post , but what is more fantastical about GoT's season1 ? I honestly don't recall...

The clothing designs -- just look at what the ladies are wearing in the Vale. And speaking of the Vale, here's the Eyrie. And consider the initial design of the Great Sept that they thankfully eventually moved away from. The baroque and exaggerated Red Keep, as well, though that's something the new show has had to inherit... but you don't get many shots of its  towering heights compared to what you saw in GoT, I think. The grand sept and Dragonpit are huge, Romanesque buildings, very much grounded in real world architecture, OTOH.

The Lannister armor was inspired by Japanese samurai armor (to the point that, I was told, initially D&D wanted their swords to be katana-like, but apparently were talked out of it), for that matter, with the idea of a more fantastical, exotic mish-mash of styles. I suppose Cersei's clothing was also a bit Japanese-inspired. And so on. Clothing on HotD generally feels to be much more unified in styles across regions, and with some very deliberate references to medieval and Renaissance clothing in a way that GoT often strayed from. Jaime's whole get up for several seasons, with the leather coat with the flap closure that wouldn't be out of place on a WWI pilot....

I don't know, it read very far, in some places, from what I think George imagined personally, while this show is closer.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Ran

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Something that I never understood is how people would say that S8 was all D&D’s fault and HBO was blameless. HBO signed off on every decision D&D made. The show had been going off the rails for years and they didn’t care so long as it continued to bring in revenue. 

I think HBO's perspective is quite understandable, though. The ratings kept going up each season, even after the show went off the rails, and by season 8 were completely astronomical. HBO definitely didn't want to interrupt the money train rolling in.

And we shouldn't forget that while fans like us thought that the quality went down in later seasons, many casual viewers really enjoyed all the spectacle.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[EggBlue]

23 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s especially weird that there’s now a panic that they’re going to “ruin” Daemon and Rhaenyra’s relationship. Many shippers have read FnB by now. Daemon isn’t some loving partner. He starts up his relationship with Mysaria again as soon as Rhaenyra takes the throne, then ditches her for a teenage girl. I can only imagine the amount of absurd hate Nettles’ actress will get when that happens.

I mean , in the book there was some chance that Daemon has an arc and changes slowly after his exile , but there's never much of a hint that he's a loving partner to Rhaenyra . in the show , Daemon's even worse and his love for Rhaenyra is clearly an obsession with Valyrian customs . so , I'm very much lost when it comes to all Daemon fans and Daemon/Rhaenyra shippers ... he may be his best self with Rhaenyra but she is her worst version with him... why is there so much love for this?! 

17 minutes ago, Ran said:

The clothing designs -- just look at what the ladies are wearing in the Vale. And speaking of the Vale, here's the Eyrie. And consider the initial design of the Great Sept that they thankfully eventually moved away from. The baroque and exaggerated Red Keep, as well, though that's something the new show has had to inherit... but you don't get many shots of its  towering heights compared to what you saw in GoT, I think. The grand sept and Dragonpit are huge, Romanesque buildings, very much grounded in real world architecture, OTOH.

The Lannister armor was inspired by Japanese samurai armor (to the point that, I was told, initially D&D wanted their swords to be katana-like, but apparently were talked out of it), for that matter, with the idea of a more fantastical, exotic mish-mash of styles. I suppose Cersei's clothing was also a bit Japanese-inspired. And so on. Clothing on HotD generally feels to be much more unified in styles across regions, and with some very deliberate references to medieval and Renaissance clothing in a way that GoT often strayed from. Jaime's whole get up for several seasons, with the leather coat with the flap closure that wouldn't be out of place on a WWI pilot....

I don't know, it read very far, in some places, from what I think George imagined personally, while this show is closer.

ah , yes I was thinking of Cersei's custums as I was asking that question . I don't think HOTD is much grounded in sets and armors(read Helmets). but yeah , in general I found HOTD to be closer to the image I got from the books.

[Ran]

HBO also didn't really have any say. D&D had brought the show to them, and could not be forced off. All HBO could do is give notes and suggest things and negotiate over how the budget was being used, but short of buying D&D out of very expensive contracts to get them to leave the (megahit) TV show in the hands of someone else, they were stuck with them.

And as Tak says, the thing grew in popularity year by year, even as it headed towards a reputation-damaging conclusion. However much HBO would have liked to have more seasons, they really couldn't justify the potentially risky mess and bad publicity that would come from switching showrunners as the show came towards a conclusion.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Ran

[invincible warrior]

36 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s especially weird that there’s now a panic that they’re going to “ruin” Daemon and Rhaenyra’s relationship. Many shippers have read FnB by now. Daemon isn’t some loving partner. He starts up his relationship with Mysaria again as soon as Rhaenyra takes the throne, then ditches her for a teenage girl. I can only imagine the amount of absurd hate Nettles’ actress will get when that happens.

The Mysaria Story does not have to happen, I thought it was already out of place in the first season and can't imagine that she would go back to Daemon. But Nettles could be rewritten to the child which Daemon teased early this season. It's definitely possible that she was actually pregnant when she ditched Daemon.

[butterweedstrover]

30 minutes ago, Ran said:

The clothing designs -- just look at what the ladies are wearing in the Vale. And speaking of the Vale, here's the Eyrie. And consider the initial design of the Great Sept that they thankfully eventually moved away from. The baroque and exaggerated Red Keep, as well, though that's something the new show has had to inherit... but you don't get many shots of its  towering heights compared to what you saw in GoT, I think. The grand sept and Dragonpit are huge, Romanesque buildings, very much grounded in real world architecture, OTOH.

The Lannister armor was inspired by Japanese samurai armor (to the point that, I was told, initially D&D wanted their swords to be katana-like, but apparently were talked out of it), for that matter, with the idea of a more fantastical, exotic mish-mash of styles. I suppose Cersei's clothing was also a bit Japanese-inspired. And so on. Clothing on HotD generally feels to be much more unified in styles across regions, and with some very deliberate references to medieval and Renaissance clothing in a way that GoT often strayed from. Jaime's whole get up for several seasons, with the leather coat with the flap closure that wouldn't be out of place on a WWI pilot....

I don't know, it read very far, in some places, from what I think George imagined personally, while this show is closer.

I agree, but I thought the futuristic/retro castles look cool in a weird way. They just needed to be bigger (but that may have to do with budget problems).

[Caligula_K3]

I know I'm behind the discussion, but I think the reason that Daemon can be interpreted in so many different ways is because he's not a consistent character. Or at least, not as he's presented so far on the show. Remember when one of his defining features was his impotency? Or that time he was tough on crime for some reason in episode 1?

It's also not a coincidence that the people he kills (from random commoners in episode 1, to the Crab Feeder in episode 3, to his wife in episode 5, to the servant who takes the place of Laenor, to Vaemond) are all barely developed filler characters. He commits very morally questionable acts, but the writers have either chosen to minimize your attachment to the characters he kills so that the moment feel more badass, or they've simply failed to realize that this is a side-effect of not developing most of the show's characters. It's not just that it's hard to care when a character dies, but it's hard to have any sort of real take on the ethics of these acts other than "that was badass" or "murder is wrong, maybe you should do less of that, Daemon."

 

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Remember when one of his defining features was his impotency? 

 

Oh wow, I completely forgot about that. It’s weird as how he breeds multiple children in a short amount of time with no perceived difficulty. I mean it was part of F&B but then why make such a big deal of his ED?

Edited October 20, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Against this we have a very substantial change to Alicent that makes her basically a different character, pretty substantial changes to Rhaenyra, very substantial changes to Viserys that make him essentially a new character, Mysaria's basically a different character... 

I don't think that's really true. George never had a character named Viserys I in his book ... he has an extra of that name in his history, but not a character. The show couldn't have been if they had accurately adapted this non-character because he would have had barely any lines, much less a story of his own.

He clearly suffers from a different sickness in the book, but claiming it is 'a change' to have him as a man interested in Valyrian history and prophetic dreams doesn't seem accurate. He is a non-character in the book the show decided to give substance to. If George had properly fleshed him out a a character they wouldn't have been forced to do it for him.

It is also too much to say that Alicent is a different character in the show. We don't know what kind of character Alicent is in the book - whether she is an ambitious slut or not, whether she wished for Rhaenyra to die in childbirth or not, what exactly her feelings and designs were.

There is evidence that she never loved Viserys in the book ... but does this mean she was this evil ambitious gold digger who seduced and married the king because she felt like doing that? Or was she pushed to marry Viserys pretty much in the same way Otto had her doing it in the show? We don't know, because George doesn't elaborate on that at all. There aren't conflicting versions there, there is just the fact that Alicent became Viserys' second wife because he wanted her. That's it.

Of course, book Alicent clearly did not need her husband's apparent blessing in the coronation of Aegon II ... but this doesn't mean him giving it behind the scenes is something that couldn't have happened in the book. The book never gives us the last conversation between Viserys I and Alicent Hightower.

Her and Rhaenyra being of the same age and close friends is a change, but not that great a change since the book itself establishes that they were friendly enough and book Rhaenyra even supported her father's decision to make Alicent his second wife ... a fact the show decided not to actually depict.

Assuming Alicent was the main instigator/force behind the 'crown Aegon' project is also more or less conjecture - it could have been the plan of the Lord of Oldtown and Otto pushing Alicent in that direction. She certainly is on board those plans, but the show's decision to portray her as the more reluctant party in the coup plans doesn't go against the book. After all, FaB is crystal clear that the peace terms are offered because of her and Helaena's insistence.

There are changes to Rhaenyra's character and Laenor's, but those changes we can only measure on the basis of the briefest of sentences. Those are not exactly all that important, since we have literally no information on the intimate details of their marriage nor how it came to be that it actually kind of worked.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One thing I wish the books clarified was whether Aemon fully intended for Rhaenys to follow him onto the throne. The fact that the succession crisis didn’t come up until after his death leads me to believe that yes, he did. But it’s weird that Rhaenys and Alysanne didn’t use this to their advantage. The idea that Jaehaerys would be spitting on his son’s grave would have surely have made for a powerful objection to his decision to pass over Rhaenys.

One imagines that Aemon intended for that. If he hadn't, if he wanted to hand the throne to either Baelon or Baelon's eldest son Viserys if Baelon predeceased him, then it is utter nonsense that he didn't lay the groundwork for that by marrying Rhaenys to Viserys ... or Rhaenys to Baelon in the wake of Alyssa's early death.

If they had had concrete designs to pass over Rhaenys as a ruling queen then they would have had the decency to at least include her as the mother of the next king in the dynastic framework - to soften the blow and reduce the potential for friction within the family.

Instead, one would imagine that both Rhaenys and Aemond (and even Jaehaerys) agreed to the Corlys match because they viewed him as an ideal potential prince consort. Rhaenys is passed over mostly because of her youth at the time of her father's death and because Baelon so heroically avenges Aemon's death.

But it seems that nobody ever decreed anything. Rhaenys wasn't formally installed as 'heir of the heir' or anything like that - which does make sense since that's never actually done. King Aemon would have named Rhaenys his heir upon his ascension.

That George doesn't bother fleshing out why the hell Jaehaerys' grandchildren married the people they did marry really shows laziness on his part - not only is it odd as hell that Rhaenys and Visery didn't marry, but also that neither Viserys nor Daemon were considered as husbands of Jaehaerys' youngest daughters ... why the hell was Daemon married to Rhea Royce and not Gael Targaryen? And why not Gael for Viserys rather than Aemma - Gael was born in 80 AC, Aemma in 82 AC. Aemma was a better match for Daemon.

[Ran]

50 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Oh wow, I completely forgot about that. It’s weird has how breeds multiple children in a short amount of time with no perceived difficulty. I mean it was part of F&B but then why make such a big deal of his ED?

Because he was obsessed with having a Valyrian bride on the show. Hence Mysaria asking if he wanted a young silver-haired girl. 

Laena and Rhaenyra both satisfy his apparent obsession on the show, but obviously this is a show thing, and Mysaria was in fact pregnant in F&B (but then she was probably Valyrian too!)

[DMC]

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She certainly is on board those plans, but the show's decision to portray her as the more reluctant party in the coup plans doesn't go against the book. After all, FaB is crystal clear that the peace terms are offered because of her and Helaena's insistence.

While she and Helaena do convince Aegon to offer peace terms (which, btw, they don't need to do in the show), her conduct and perspective at the green council is a significant change from the books that fundamentally changes the scene.  Also, even though there is the self-interested bias, I do believe it was Orwyle who first proposed offering terms in the books.  I would suspect most maesters to make such a proposal.

[butterweedstrover]

12 minutes ago, Ran said:

Because he was obsessed with having a Valyrian bride on the show. Hence Mysaria asking if he wanted a young silver-haired girl. 

Laena and Rhaenyra both satisfy his apparent obsession on the show, but obviously this is a show thing, and Mysaria was in fact pregnant in F&B (but then she was probably Valyrian too!)

But he had the problem with Rhaenyra in episode 4.

[Adaneth]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s especially weird that there’s now a panic that they’re going to “ruin” Daemon and Rhaenyra’s relationship. Many shippers have read FnB by now. Daemon isn’t some loving partner. He starts up his relationship with Mysaria again as soon as Rhaenyra takes the throne, then ditches her for a teenage girl. I can only imagine the amount of absurd hate Nettles’ actress will get when that happens.

That's Mushroom's account, if you mean that they were lovers. They don't need to go that way.