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[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion


Ran
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Are we sure that HBO doesn’t play a hand in leaking episodes to build hype? The ratings peaked with EP2, which also leaked early.

In fairness to Eve Best for that quote about Rhaenys’ big scene, some people pointed out that she probably gave the interview weeks ago, and the script probably didn’t mention all the smallfolk that were crushed. So she may not have realized the full context of the scene yet.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

They greatly reduced Criston’s role as kingmaker. I’m starting to think he was miscast too. The actor isn’t bad, but he doesn’t have the same gravitas as the rest of the main cast.

The problem is also that the character didn't age at all, and they didn't even made an effort for it, he looks the same age as Aegon and Aemond, when he needs to be 20 years older. You'll say Daemon too, but Matt Smith at least looks in his early 40's. Fabien looks like a 25 years old. He still looks like a bitter college guy who holds a grudge against his first girlfriend. And he doesn't have that much lines either to make the character speaks about anything else. So it's difficult for him to appear with a kind of stern charisma.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Are we sure that HBO doesn’t play a hand in leaking episodes to build hype? The ratings peaked with EP2, which also leaked early.

In fairness to Eve Best for that quote about Rhaenys’ big scene, some people pointed out that she probably gave the interview weeks ago, and the script probably didn’t mention all the smallfolk that were crushed. So she may not have realized the full context of the scene yet.

Just like with Emilia in The Bells episode. The first time she saw and understood what Dany had really done in KL was during that dinner with her fans, when they were watching the episode live.

 

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They greatly reduced Criston’s role as kingmaker. I’m starting to think he was miscast too. The actor isn’t bad, but he doesn’t have the same gravitas as the rest of the main cast.

It's not just his role as the Kingsmaker. He sucks as a character. He's holding this grudge for years, against a woman (and her kids too) he had a one night stand with, and he just can't let go. It looks and feels like he had nothing else to do during all these years. The butthurt is strong with him. He's just pathetic and creepy.

And what @Khloey said about his age doesn't help at all.

Edited by Adaneth
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3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

They greatly reduced Criston’s role as kingmaker.

They did?  How?  Because all he did - other than physically placing the crown on Aegon's head as in the show - is worry about bastards turning the Red Keep into a brothel during the Green Council and convince Aegon to take the crown by warning him Rhaenyra would have to kill him and his brothers.  The show gives the latter to Alicent, aye, but I don't think that's much.  It's hard to "greatly reduce" a sobriquet that is greatly overstated in the first place.

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9 minutes ago, DMC said:

They did?  How?  Because all he did - other than physically placing the crown on Aegon's head as in the show - is worry about bastards turning the Red Keep into a brothel during the Green Council and convince Aegon to take the crown by warning him Rhaenyra would have to kill him and his brothers.  The show gives the latter to Alicent, aye, but I don't think that's much.  It's hard to "greatly reduce" a sobriquet that is greatly overstated in the first place.

Then they should have improved it and made him more worthy of the moniker “kingmaker,” instead of the opposite. It’s what his character is remembered for in-universe.

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4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s what his character is remembered for in-universe.

Which seems to be solely due to the crowning.  It's not like much of anyone outside maesters/scholars would be much interested in his role during the Green Council/lead up to the coronation years and decades later anyway.

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8 minutes ago, DMC said:

Which seems to be solely due to the crowning.  It's not like much of anyone outside maesters/scholars would be much interested in his role during the Green Council/lead up to the coronation years and decades later anyway.

He’s going to need to take on a greater role next season if his death is to have any impact, with his killers recognizing him as a puppet master behind the war. I’m thinking he may fan Aegon’s ego, which will surely grow now that he is king, with the intention of supplanting Otto.

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On 10/17/2022 at 7:35 AM, Ran said:

Basically, when George wrote AFFC, he wanted to do a parallel with Jaime the Kingslayer, so Criston Cole became the Kingmaker, but he had no real idea of what that meant. Then when he actually wrote the Dance... well, he didn't come up with some central role for him, really, so he's the Kingmaker because of putting the crown on Aegon's head more than anything, and yes, then that detail from Eustace that claims he was pivotal in convincing Aegon, which most people would not have known contemporaneously.

It's fine, honestly. Putting the crown on Aegon's head is a literal act of king making. But I suspect, way back in AFfC when George had Arianne and Arys talking about the Kingmaker, he envisioned a more significant role for him in some nebulous way.

I totally get what you’re saying and agree with most of it.

However, George knows The Wars of the Roses inside and out and has said many time, as you know, that it’s one of the main sources he based this universe on. He knows Richard Neville, 16th Earl of Warwick was The Kingmaker, and his daughter Anne became Queen of England when she married Richard III.

Cole May have the Kingmaker moniker in F&B, but Otto is much closer to Neville in actions. 

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Hmm looks like the plug may have been pulled on the Nymeria and Sea Snake prequels: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/yac4lz/spoilers_extended_sea_snake_ten_thousand_ships/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

That said, Snow isn’t listed either, which I’m guessing GRRM is producing as well.  

 

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No chance. The problem is HBO, unlike Disney and Amazon, had legacy deals internationally. That means the show has to go to, say, Foxtel in Australia, Now and Sky in the UK, etc., which means they lose complete control of the content at some point.

I believe some leaks have been sourced to India, previously.

Episode 2 was the peak in good part because it was the last week where it wasn't programmed against the NFL.  That said, the Nielsen ratings for the week of September 19-25 are out, and the show has now surpassed RoP, and has  been climbing steadily from week to week now. It's looking very strong.

Edited by Ran
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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Hmm looks like the plug may have been pulled on the Nymeria and Sea Snake prequels: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/yac4lz/spoilers_extended_sea_snake_ten_thousand_ships/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

That said, Snow isn’t listed either, which I’m guessing GRRM is producing as well.  

 

Good. I like Dorne in the books but I can't say I feel sad not having TV Show about it. Idk about Sea Snake prequels either. These kind of stories are far more fascinating when reading. 

I would like a Blackfyre rebellion, or The Doom of Valyria. Otherwise, they could bring to an end the TV series (based on this Universe) with HoD. Love me some Jon Snow but I find that idea terrible. 

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The Nymeria show, like the Doom, is something that I think they could very well revisit in animation, if those take off. But it would be monumentally expensive to film as a live action show, considering all the new locations they’d be using, and there hasn’t really been enough interest among fans to justify the price tag.

The likelihood of a Sea Snake show going forward probably rested on whether he was a breakout character during the first season, and unfortunately he hasn’t been (granted, the writers didn’t really provide him with riveting material, nor was much said about his many voyages). It wouldn’t surprise me if HBO is wary of proceeding with projects that have almost no written base material. 

Is it a fool’s dream to hope that GRRM will announce some new material at one of his upcoming events? It must be, but I was hoping that all this talk of spin-offs would at least lead to some new supplementary material. . . :crying:

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5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Hmm looks like the plug may have been pulled on the Nymeria and Sea Snake prequels: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/yac4lz/spoilers_extended_sea_snake_ten_thousand_ships/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

That said, Snow isn’t listed either, which I’m guessing GRRM is producing as well.  

 

As the top comment says, if they're going to make a show about ships and voyages they might as well do one with Arya.

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The Nymeria show, like the Doom, is something that I think they could very well revisit in animation, if those take off. But it would be monumentally expensive to film as a live action show, considering all the new locations they’d be using, and there hasn’t really been enough interest among fans to justify the price tag.

It would be perfect as an animation.

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Eve also said her act of mercy showed why Rhaenys should be queen while everyone here was calling her stupid for such a decision.  

But also, I think that puts to sleep the idea she spared them because she was undecided. 

She said showed to herself, not that she did it for that reason. Either way, "it's not her war" kinda shows that she hadn't decided.

I love (book) Arya. She's in my top 5 favorites. But I think that's a terrible idea too. They had 8 long years. Their story is over. I say let it rest.

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