[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion

[Adaneth]

14 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well it’s not gonna rest whether we like it or not. GOT is still in demand. There will be a Jon show, and if that does well an Arya show, and who knows, maybe a Drogon show.

Oh, I know. They will milk that cow until its death, and after.

Mine it's just a fool's hope. 

[DMC]

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

But also, I think that puts to sleep the idea she spared them because she was undecided. 

Huh?  No, it really doesn't.  Particularly, as mentioned, Best finishes the thought by saying it's not her war.  I don't see how you can jump from "Rhaenys' restraint shows she would've been a good queen" to "Rhaenys has decided to fight for the blacks."

[butterweedstrover]

54 minutes ago, DMC said:

Huh?  No, it really doesn't.  Particularly, as mentioned, Best finishes the thought by saying it's not her war.  I don't see how you can jump from "Rhaenys' restraint shows she would've been a good queen" to "Rhaenys has decided to fight for the blacks."

I think more so it is that she will never fight for the greens. Even if ostensibly she is not providing military aid to the Blacks her return to Dragonstone is at the very least to avoid persecution from the Greens. 
 

Someone here suggested she kept them alive as a viable alternative to the Blacks, but Eve more or less says it was done not for political reasons, but moral ones. If you remove the moral reasons, she’d have smoked them.

[C.T. Phipps]

16 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Are we sure that HBO doesn’t play a hand in leaking episodes to build hype? The ratings peaked with EP2, which also leaked early.

In fairness to Eve Best for that quote about Rhaenys’ big scene, some people pointed out that she probably gave the interview weeks ago, and the script probably didn’t mention all the smallfolk that were crushed. So she may not have realized the full context of the scene yet.

I mean, the killing of the Smallfolk was justified. They were all traitors.

 

[DMC]

33 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I think more so it is that she will never fight for the greens.

Well, sure.  That's pretty obvious, and her conduct was pretty obviously a threat to the greens.  That's not what the "undecided" part was about.  It's about whether she has decided to fight for the blacks or to remain neutral and simply go home to Driftmark.

34 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

If you remove the moral reasons, she’d have smoked them.

No.  There are political reasons not to smoke them as well.

[The Bard of Banefort]

16 hours ago, Ran said:

No chance. The problem is HBO, unlike Disney and Amazon, had legacy deals internationally. That means the show has to go to, say, Foxtel in Australia, Now and Sky in the UK, etc., which means they lose complete control of the content at some point.

I believe some leaks have been sourced to India, previously.

Episode 2 was the peak in good part because it was the last week where it wasn't programmed against the NFL.  That said, the Nielsen ratings for the week of September 19-25 are out, and the show has now surpassed RoP, and has  been climbing steadily from week to week now. It's looking very strong.

Although neither show could dethrone Cobra Kai 

[BlackLightning]

On 10/19/2022 at 12:56 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I came across a critique of HOTD and ROP from EW. Interestingly, it also suggests that the writers seem afraid to make Alicent and Rhaenyra more morally ambiguous:

https://ew.com/tv/tv-reviews/house-of-the-dragon-rings-of-power-finales-review/

That's the legacy of GoT

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Wrong thread

Edited October 23, 2022 by The Bard of Banefort

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

That's the legacy of GoT

I feel like both are pretty morally ambiguous, though. Especially Alicent.

[butterweedstrover]

4 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I feel like both are pretty morally ambiguous, though. Especially Alicent.

Why Rhaenyra?  

Alicent is a dead horse, I won't keep beating it. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

It occurred to me that we may get a reenactment of Aegon’s Amok portrait, with him pricking his finger with a dagger. In this case, that dagger would be the catspaw blade.

[frenin]

Absolutely disgusted by Rhaenys's actions... This changes become weirder and weirder.

The Green Council openly talk about killing Rhaenyra and her heirs... which while politically sound is near impossible to be done. How do they plan on doing it anyway?

The idea that Rhaenyra has dragons doesn't seem to cross their minds.

[Lord Varys]

There is no in-universe reason, any narrative justification for Otto not being with the Cargyll twins when they find Aegon in the sept, right?

Pretty poor writing there to have the Hand learn where the future king is and then only send two guys there ... and not, you know, more men. Not to mention the Hand himself whose authority should and would have ended every infighting among the men there.

Where the hell did Otto go after the Mysaria meeting? To the privy? Did he visit the grave of his nameless, long-dead wife?

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Absolutely disgusted by Rhaenys's actions... This changes become weirder and weirder.

The Green Council openly talk about killing Rhaenyra and her heirs... which while politically sound is near impossible to be done. How do they plan on doing it anyway?

It is pretty clear. Westerling was to go to Dragonstone with his knights and murder the princess and her family. That would be easily doable in a scenario where they didn't suspect any foul play or treason. All they would need to do is get there and get close to them.

[DMC]

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Where the hell did Otto go after the Mysaria meeting? To the privy?

You cracked the code to the greens' most closely-guarded secret:  Otto has IBS.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, DMC said:

You cracked the code to the greens' most closely-guarded secret:  Otto has IBS.

Not sure if he had then ever insisted to lock them into the council chamber with Beesbury's corpse.

Also, thinking about the Larys thing:

Does it make any sense at all that this freak could force the queen into doing something she didn't like to do - and she clearly doesn't like this perverted shit?

I mean, she is the queen, she has all the power. Larys isn't even a lord when this starts, and he might even owe his Lord Confessor office to her patronage (Lyonel could have done something there, too, of course).

In the wake of the Harrenhal double murder Alicent is clearly afraid of the freak, not just annoyed, but afraid. So why does she go along with his shit?

Sure enough - she wants allies. But she could just strong-arm/force Larys into doing what she wants. He murdered his father and his elder brother, after all, and while he might think he could also throw dirt at Alicent if he was publicly accused as a murderer ... Alicent could easily enough rid herself of Larys permanently in a manner which doesn't include him having a chance to speak.

Alicent is worshipped by at least one guy who is a known murderer of a favorite of the consort of the future queen. Criston Cole would gladly put down Larys Strong for his queen.

The foot fetish thing would only work if Alicent enjoyed it, too - either on a sexual level or at least in a way to exert dominance over Larys. The idea that Larys could effectively force Alicent to be his whore - even in this indirect manner - makes no sense at all. He would want to buy her attention and favor by offering whatever information he has, he could not possibly go to the queen telling her 'I've super important information you must want, but I'll only give it to you if you become my foot whore'.

Also, you don't gain the favor of a queen by murdering people without actually checking with her if that's what she wants. I mean, what sane person would trust a guy who did that? Even if you want an assassin in your service, you would want a trustworthy assassin, somebody you could rely on to do what you want him to do, and not somebody who presumes to know your intentions (better than you do).

[Daeron the Daring]

So, everybody here saw the leaked EP10?

 

[DMC]

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Larys could effectively force Alicent to be his whore - even in this indirect manner - makes no sense at all.

I think you're overthinking this.  As you said, Alicent is clearly terrified of Larys.  A public accusation is clearly a form of MAD, and she simply has a lot more to lose - especially considering Larys doesn't seem to care about Harrenhal at all.  As for asking Cole to kill him, she could, sure.  But (1) the inception of their relationship was Criston being ashamed enough of "soiling his honor" he confessed and was ready to accept the consequences, so she may be unsure if he'd accept such a dishonorable task (not to mention probably ask why, in which she'd have to explain herself or lie); and (2) the key aspect of her being terrified of Larys is what he is capable of.  It makes sense her character is too afraid to make a move against him, particularly when the cost of his information isn't too egregious.

[DMC]

43 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So, everybody here saw the leaked EP10?

 

No.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think you're overthinking this.  As you said, Alicent is clearly terrified of Larys.  A public accusation is clearly a form of MAD, and she simply has a lot more to lose - especially considering Larys doesn't seem to care about Harrenhal at all.  As for asking Cole to kill him, she could, sure.  But (1) the inception of their relationship was Criston being ashamed enough of "soiling his honor" he confessed and was ready to accept the consequences, so she may be unsure if he'd accept such a dishonorable task (not to mention probably ask why, in which she'd have to explain herself or lie); and (2) the key aspect of her being terrified of Larys is what he is capable of.  It makes sense her character is too afraid to make a move against him, particularly when the cost of his information isn't too egregious.

Criston Cole would be just one of many men willing to kill and die for their queen. I mean, squeemishness or not, Alicent Hightower is the leader of the Green party at this point. She has a lot of influence both through her hold over the king as well as through her own supporters.

There is just no way this guy could even continue to approach the queen if she just refused to receive him. What is he going to do then? He is just mid-tier court official.

Larys has the most to lose there - his life. Alicent would have been able to wiggle out of the whole thing considering her standing with Viserys and the fact that everybody knowing her (closely) would conclude it was unlikely as hell that she would command the murder of Lyonel Strong - much less Harwin's whose testimony she would actually need to potentially destroy Rhaenyra one day.

And the reason/pretext for killing Larys - what about Alicent just told Criston that Larys was masturbating in her presence? I mean, in what world could he justify this kind of filthy behavior? What man devoted to Alicent would actually care to listen to Larys' 'explanation' or 'justification'? What would Viserys do if he knew about this?

(I think I know what Aemond will do once he hears about this - or any other things Larys might to do to or with Alicent in the future - eradicate House Strong completely.)

Criston is pretty concerned about how Larys looked at Alicent in episode 8.

Also, we must assume that the foot thing started prior to the double murder - Alicent already takes her shoes off in the scene in episode 6, and that's clearly at a time when Alicent wasn't yet afraid of the guy.

And as I think I said earlier - this kind of thing also makes little sense as a formal agreement. I mean, they treat the whole thing as something that doesn't happen, don't reference it or mention it ... so are we to believe that both were grown-up or 'whore-patron' enough, in the beginning, that Larys told Alicent he would feed her information in exchange for permission to jerk off to her feet?

That just feels as ridiculous as it reads.

The whole thing could have made more sense if Larys was more Alicent's creature - if she realized he was attracted to her and if she realized his talents and decided to take him under her wing.

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is just no way this guy could even continue to approach the queen if she just refused to receive him. What is he going to do then? He is just mid-tier court official.

This seems to obviously be forgetting the situation is transactional.  She wants the information.

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Criston Cole would be just one of many men willing to kill and die for their queen.

Cole is in love with the "idea" of Alicent.  Destroy that idea and you may lose two allies.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And the reason/pretext for killing Larys - what about Alicent just told Criston that Larys was masturbating in her presence? I mean, in what world could he justify this kind of filthy behavior? What man devoted to Alicent would actually care to listen to Larys' 'explanation' or 'justification'? What would Viserys do if he knew about this?

Again, you're overthinking this.  She's terrified of the guy.

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, we must assume that the foot thing started prior to the double murder

No, we mustn't.

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That just feels as ridiculous as it reads.

I think a private exchange for sexual favors is common enough both would have the discretion and knowhow to negotiate that privately and subtly.  But I agree the foot fetish aspect is ridiculous and a very trite characterization of Larys, as I've said.